Timeline for when religion will be obsolete.

[NimrodTheGoat]

In an evolutionary standpoint, religion may become obsolete when our frontal lobes are no more (or 'not the same as they are now'). It does not necessarily mean that our frontal lobes will dissapear all together, but the area of the brain will evolve differently rendering our knowledge or existence of religion obsolete/unable to grasp the concept of having a higher being above us. Our cognitive definition of religion may not be the same in the future.

Of course this is just a 'may' scenario, but possibly true. Our frontal lobes do control cognitive processes, and any alter to its structure may change the way we are.

[DrKrettin]

 

In an evolutionary standpoint, religion may become obsolete when our frontal lobes are no more.

 

 

Does a goat have any frontal lobes?

[dimreepr]

 

In an evolutionary standpoint, religion may become obsolete when our frontal lobes are no more (or 'not the same as they are now'). It does not necessarily mean that our frontal lobes will dissapear all together, but the area of the brain will evolve differently rendering our knowledge or existence of religion obsolete/unable to grasp the concept of having a higher being above us.

 

If only I could translate this into a meaningful sentence.

[Handy andy]

 

He is a greater figure in German literature than Shakespeare is in English. Born 1749, I guess he wrote this around 1800. Certainly not the Dark Ages, but a time when it was very courageous to suggest that religion was unnecessary. It seemed appropriate for this thread.

 

Ok point taken, I don't read Shakespeare either

 

The thread however is about " When will religious belief, or belief in gods become a thing of the past? 100 years? 300 years? Never?

 

Do you think most of humanity will ever drop superstition and embrace scientific and secular worldviews? "

 

I was merely pointing out above that, religion protects itself and is self perpetuating. It is supported by governments via tax incentives, ie no taxation.

 

I think it is generally accepted that Religion is a tool used for control of people. I think also it is a tool which can run out of control when not checked and people are allowed to develop blind belief in religious stories, which might in some way be based on natural disasters claimed to be acts of god, or on the movement of the stars.

 

With all the correlations between religions as highlighted by zeitgeist groups and many others, it would be easy to suspect religion is the same tool used over and over again to control peoples minds and thoughts.

 

I did a long time ago give some thought to what an alternative belief system might look like for an atheist. It might include a version of a big bang, evolution, political history, hopes for a better world etc. This is not a million miles from religious belief except it would not be praising religious leaders for human sacrifice(occult) or genocide, or world subjugation by some religion or other. In my version of history the conquerors don't come out as being good people.

[DrKrettin]

 

The thread however is about " When will religious belief, or belief in gods become a thing of the past? 100 years? 300 years? Never?

Do you think most of humanity will ever drop superstition and embrace scientific and secular worldviews? "

 

I was merely pointing out above that, religion protects itself and is self perpetuating. It is supported by governments via tax incentives, ie no taxation.

 

I think it is generally accepted that Religion is a tool used for control of people.

 

No, I don't think humanity will ever drop superstition, because they won't have the kind of vision that Goethe had. Some will, but it requires a level of education and study as well as intelligence. Our species has a long way to go for an enlightenment - the fact that the USA can vote for an ignorant arsehole as their leader shows just how far.

[DrP]

Here's a new take. It is already a thing of the past and obsolete. Full stop.

 

 

When I was a believer I tried to be fervent, I considered my self a fundamentalist and had a very personal relationship with my deity... I found very few others that took their faith as seriously as I. Even the real extremists that done nothing but preach I felt lacked understanding of the love that talked about (not all them, but only a very small number seemed to have that 'enlightened' state of love and compassion for all). What I am trying to say is - hardly anyone in their right mind believes in god as it is defined in the bible (I say in there right mind... I understand how a sane person comes to believe such obvious rubbish, I was there, but eventually if you are true to yourself then it is pretty darn obvious). In this modern world where we have free access to the sum of human knowledge in libraries and on the net it is clear that the god of any of these modern religions is a story and a myth like all of the ones before them in the Greek, Egyptian, African and Roman myths. I think we are still going through a change in the global zeitgeist towards dropping the idea of an invisible 'person' in the sky that oversees all. Thus - I say that it is already obsolete and has been replaced with education and social responsibility.

 

The ones that will find it hardest to drop the BS are the those in the Middle East in countries where religion is still totally compulsory. The rest of the world just needs to be patient in waiting for them to catch up and ditch their ancient superstitious ways. This could indeed take decades or even centuries. It is a depressing thought, but you have to hope that the whole world will see the light eventually and be at peace.

[Handy andy]

 

The ones that will find it hardest to drop the BS are the those in the Middle East in countries where religion is still totally compulsory. The rest of the world just needs to be patient in waiting for them to catch up and ditch their ancient superstitious ways. This could indeed take decades or even centuries. It is a depressing thought, but you have to hope that the whole world will see the light eventually and be at peace.

 

Patience is a virtue, however when a vicious religion is trying to spread its self globally by what ever means possible. Some proactive counter measures might be a good idea, such as global advertising campaign pointing out religion was a joke spread by the ruling elite to control society.

 

It is a little difficult not to take people seriously in extremist areas, because people can get a little bit psychotic when religion is discussed. The media and internet can reach them without danger to life and limb. Religious organisations with vast funding use these modern tools to spread their belief system, and atheists do little to counter it. Religion and Atheism are not on a level playing field, governments and the media promote religions, they do not promote atheism.

[dimreepr]

 

Patience is a virtue, however when a vicious religion is trying to spread its self globally by what ever means possible. Some proactive counter measures might be a good idea, such as global advertising campaign pointing out religion was a joke spread by the ruling elite to control society.

 

Closed minded intolerance and political fear mongering isn't just a religious trait; as we can see here.

[DrP]

Problem with pointing out that their religion is a joke is that they get offended so badly that they want to kill you... in fact they are ordered to kill you for it by the religious texts that guides them.

[dimreepr]

Problem with pointing out that their religion is a joke is that they (ARE TOLD TO) get offended so badly that they want to kill you... in fact they are ordered to kill you for it by the religious texts political leaders that guides them, via the excuse of religious texts.

 

FTFY

[DrP]

Depends on the text Dim - it says it in the book, it isn't an excuse they make up. I can't point to the exact verse and chapter but I was under the opinion that this is not text that is twisted by political leaders...;. the text itself has this shit in it. If it isn't then I apologise, but all this Jihad and death penalty stuff comes straight from the scripture I think. I've seen some of it. I can't be assed to go through another massive tomb of bollox, I've read through the other one 2 or 3 times and then studied it extensively.

Seriously - it's not all love and doves like the New Testament.... it's cut off their hands and heads stuff of the old testament and it is thier most modern CURRENT text they use for governing.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DrP

[dimreepr]

Seriously - it's not all love and doves like the New Testament.... it's cut off their hands and heads stuff of the old testament and it is thier most modern CURRENT text they use for governing.

 

That's my entire point on the subject, they are, at least they started out that way.

 

It's the illusion of understanding that gets in the way, on both sides, "if I understand it they must be wrong" when I really mean "I have knowledge that THEY are wrong, so of course they're wrong".

 

Knowledge doesn't equal understanding.

Let's take "an eye for an eye" as an example, widely used as an example of why religion should be ignored:

 

As I've previously suggested it's all in the interpretation which is influenced by time, language and culture.

 

So if it was written in a culture that saw revenge (the type that seeks reparation by taking a little more than they gave) as a natural right; then it's a justifiable step on the road to forgiveness.

Edited May 31, 2017 by dimreepr

[zapatos]

Depends on the text Dim - it says it in the book, it isn't an excuse they make up. I can't point to the exact verse and chapter but I was under the opinion that this is not text that is twisted by political leaders...;. the text itself has this shit in it. If it isn't then I apologise, but all this Jihad and death penalty stuff comes straight from the scripture I think. I've seen some of it. I can't be assed to go through another massive tomb of bollox, I've read through the other one 2 or 3 times and then studied it extensively.

 

Seriously - it's not all love and doves like the New Testament.... it's cut off their hands and heads stuff of the old testament and it is thier most modern CURRENT text they use for governing.

Are you talking about the Bible or some other text?

Since 'death to infidels' is in both the Koran and the Bible, I think it is safe to assume that it is not just the text that is encouraging people to kill infidels.

 

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

[DrP]

ZAP: The Old Testament is a history book. There is no death to infidels in the New Testament - I have read the OT 2 or 3 times and it is superceded by the NEW Testament which has no such thing in it. It preaches love, forgiveness and mercy. It has some shit in it - but all based around making your self feel bad for following your sexual desires and stuff. You know which book I am talking about - the one which promotes the killing of me for saying that it is bullshit.

 

 

DIM: 'they' might be.... at least a percentage. The book however is no such thing. It is very much old testament style punishments and worse (cutting off hands and stoning etc..) and it is current. Where is the talk of love, peace, grace, mercy and forgiveness? Even if you can show me where that is their book it is alongside the atrocities of capitol punishment for next to nothing and the severing of limbs. Totally barbaric nonsense and I'd be killed for saying it publically. You know this... I'm fed up with people making excuses for it. It is NOTHING like Christianity (as written in their books).

 

 

I don't deny there are some nice people who do not follow the rules in the book that promote disgusting violence... but if you took the book literally - which many do - then there is trouble. The NT maybe crap - but if taken literally won't get you killing people, ever.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DrP

[seriously disabled]

I think that religion will never completely die off.

 

As long as life remains tough and cruel to some people and it always is, many people will turn to religion for help. Some people need religion because every day is a difficult struggle for them.

 

Personally I don't believe that God exists but I think it would be extremely awesome if he did exist and really helped people.

[dimreepr]

DIM: 'they' might be.... at least a percentage. The book however is no such thing. It is very much old testament style punishments and worse (cutting off hands and stoning etc..) and it is current. Where is the talk of love, peace, grace, mercy and forgiveness? Even if you can show me where that is their book it is alongside the atrocities of capitol punishment for next to nothing and the severing of limbs. Totally barbaric nonsense and I'd be killed for saying it publically. You know this... I'm fed up with people making excuses for it. It is NOTHING like Christianity (as written in their books).

 

 

I'd never make an excuse for such cowardly acts, I'm a pacifist.

 

I'm not making excuses, I'm saying there are reasons (and it depends on which side of the cutlery you're facing) one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter (depends on the cutlery).

I'd much rather be persuaded by a spoon than a knife,

[DrP]

I'm not even talking about terrorism though Dim... it is in their most up to date and CURRENT set of laws written in their holy book which can't be questioned that you slice of the hand of a thief. You stone an adulterer. You kill an apostate. This isn't terrorism... this isn't an OLD testament that had been superceeded by a message of love, forgiveness and repentance in a new book. This is the current law as written for them which cannot be questioned or criticised.

It used to sadden me deeply.... it used to anger me... but being honest... since we came from dust a few billion years ago I suppose we haven't actually done that bad as a species - it is amazing. I can take a lot of joy from witnessing the world... I can only hope the madness ends with better education and sharing of ideals globally.... we can ditch the barbarism and progress in love.

[dimreepr]

I'm not even talking about terrorism though Dim... it is in their most up to date and CURRENT set of laws written in their holy book which can't be questioned that you slice of the hand of a thief.

 

It was only current once, it's misunderstood now...

 

This isn't terrorism... this isn't an OLD testament that had been superceeded by a message of love, forgiveness and repentance in a new book. This is the current law as written for them which cannot be questioned or criticised.

 

I've yet to meet anyone who thinks this way... You?

[zapatos]

I have read the OT 2 or 3 times and it is superceded by the NEW Testament which has no such thing in it.

I believe that is a matter of opinion, not a matter of doctrine. The New Testament seems to both suggest both. For example, from Matthew 5:17-19:

 

 

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

 

To many Christians, the Old Testament is as current as it ever was.

[KipIngram]

 

 

It was only current once, it's misunderstood now...

 

I've yet to meet anyone who thinks this way... You?

 

 

Once in the 1990s, before there really was a web but when there were early chat-type things online, I fell into a random chat with a young woman in the middle east. She said the very thing - told me point blank that it was the teaching of her religion that disbelievers should be killed. So, I didn't really "meet" her in person, but I did encounter someone who held that belief. I questioned her about it, along the lines of didn't the idea of killing bother her. Her reaction was more or less a "shrug" - all she was focused on was what her faith told her to do.

[Handy andy]

 

Once in the 1990s, before there really was a web but when there were early chat-type things online, I fell into a random chat with a young woman in the middle east. She said the very thing - told me point blank that it was the teaching of her religion that disbelievers should be killed. So, I didn't really "meet" her in person, but I did encounter someone who held that belief. I questioned her about it, along the lines of didn't the idea of killing bother her. Her reaction was more or less a "shrug" - all she was focused on was what her faith told her to do.

 

It isn't just Moslems that become homicidal. My wife and I were invited for dinner by some people I helped out of bother on my travels. They thought it would be a good idea to talk to us about how wonderful Christianity was. They lost the discussion on all fronts, but in the end came up with the wonderful idea that killing anyone who was not Christian during the next world war to irradicate the world of non believers was a good idea. Around this time we left due to none reconcilable differences of opinion.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Handy andy

[KipIngram]

 

It isn't just Moslems that become homicidal. My wife and I were invited for dinner by some people I helped out of bother on my travels. They thought it would be a good idea to talk to us about how wonderful Christianity was. They lost the discussion on all fronts, but in the end came up with the wonderful idea that killing anyone who was not Christian during the next world war to irradicate the world of non believers was a good idea. Around this time we left due to none reconcilable differences of opinion.

 

I don't disagree, but that's just the only time I personally encountered such a person, which was what dimreepr asked for examples of. No intention there whatsoever to "single out" Islam.

[Handy andy]

 

I don't disagree, but that's just the only time I personally encountered such a person, which was what dimreepr asked for examples of. No intention there whatsoever to "single out" Islam.

 

Understood but not wanting to single out just religion, nutters are every where. None religious nutters however normally operate alone and can be managed. Religion has very large organised gangs of nutters, which try to run countries and harm those that want to leave the gang. This is going to sustain religious belief for a long time to come. Even none believers living amongst the nutters might claim belief to survive or to enjoy some social activities. Religious nutters are free to move amongst normal people and are supported by politicians.

 

The problem I find with all nutters, with religious belief, once provoked they can get a bit aggressive or emotional.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Handy andy

[KipIngram]

Sure - even not too long ago in the US, especially in small towns, you could get socially "marked" if you didn't show up in church on Sunday. Things have gotten a lot better on that front the last few decades, but I bet you could still find it here and there if you looked hard enough. You're right about it not being just religion. I can't think of a good example right now, but my wife is constantly paying attention to how our kids will be affected in their own social circles by various things. I consider myself lucky in that somewhere along the way I just got over caring what other people think about me. It's my life - I plan to live it as I please.

[Raider5678]

Let's take "an eye for an eye" as an example, widely used as an example of why religion should be ignored:

Obviously you've never heard of a hyperbole.

 

 

It isn't just Moslems that become homicidal. My wife and I were invited for dinner by some people I helped out of bother on my travels. They thought it would be a good idea to talk to us about how wonderful Christianity was. They lost the discussion on all fronts, but in the end came up with the wonderful idea that killing anyone who was not Christian during the next world war to irradicate the world of non believers was a good idea. Around this time we left due to none reconcilable differences of opinion.

Except in Christianity, you're not suppose to kill them.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

That means more that Jesus came to change how they went about the law. Deciding who could be judged, and how, etc.

But he kept the same basic principles of "don't do this. And definitely don't do that."

He is still fulfilling the law.

Because the law isn't the punishments, it's the rules.

Throughout the New Testament, he fulfills the rules. But rather then judging, condemning, or killing sinners, he helped them and encouraged them to sin no more.

Still upholding the law. But now he fulfills it.

Because rather then killing people who broke the law, he forgives them and tries to get them to stop.

Then he died for them.

 

 

You took it wrong.

Sure - even not too long ago in the US, especially in small towns, you could get socially "marked" if you didn't show up in church on Sunday. Things have gotten a lot better on that front the last few decades, but I bet you could still find it here and there if you looked hard enough. You're right about it not being just religion. I can't think of a good example right now, but my wife is constantly paying attention to how our kids will be affected in their own social circles by various things. I consider myself lucky in that somewhere along the way I just got over caring what other people think about me. It's my life - I plan to live it as I please.

That's true.

But going to a church doesn't matter.

It's how you are as a person.