The pH Value of Blood and chronic Diseases

[kayzumfelde]

Well, buffering cannot be extended to the infinite. It's only a factor 20, f.e. if considering bicarbonate/carbon acid. That you can proof that by googling for it. And metabolism is influencing everything also pH of blood. And the pH of blood is essentiell for the health of the body. We are clear of that, or aren't we?

 

Because I am the only one who is supporting my point of view, doesn't mean that I have to be the only one who needs to proof his point of view. You have also to proof what you say. You only come up lately with suggestions. Those suggestions can be only true by coincidence. They have no logical basis.

[hypervalent_iodine]

Well, buffering cannot be extended to the infinite. It's only a factor 20, f.e. if considering bicarbonate/carbon acid. That you can proof that by googling for it. And metabolism is influencing everything also pH of blood. And the pH of blood is essentiell for the health of the body. We are clear of that, or aren't we?

 

Because I am the only one who is supporting my point of view, doesn't mean that I have to be the only one who needs to proof his point of view. You have also to proof what you say. You only come up lately with suggestions. Those suggestions can be only true by coincidence. They have no logical basis.

What I am saying is the mainstream and accepted scientific view. I don't need to prove anything. You are making ridiculous claims with seemingly no science behind them at all, so you are the one who needs to provide citations. Start with this factor of twenty thing.

[kayzumfelde]

Mainstream is not always right. Can you explain why I have no problems anymore staying on a alkalic vegan diet?

 

Because mainstream medicine says that is right or wrong because of this or that doesn't mean it is the truth. And medicine is no real science, since every fact in medicine is based on statistics. Statistics is subjective. That's a mathematical fact. Read E. T. Jaynes: "Probability Theory". That is a well accepted text book on statistics.

 

Biochemistry is a real science, like chemistry or physics.

[hypervalent_iodine]

Mainstream is not always right. Can you explain why I have no problems anymore staying on a alkalic vegan diet?

 

Because mainstream medicine says that is right or wrong because of this or that doesn't mean it is the truth. And medicine is no real science, since every fact in medicine is based on statistics. Statistics is subjective. That's a mathematical fact. Read E. T. Jaynes: "Probability Theory". That is a well accepted text book on statistics.

 

Biochemistry is a real science, like chemistry or physics.

 

If you can't bother citing your sources, then this thread is a waste of everyone's time.

[Fuzzwood]

Imma just going to throw this in here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

For the rest, the burden of proof is on your shoulders and on your shoulders alone, kayzumfelde. The only thing we hear from you at the moment is "It's true because I say so.", which is a pathetic attempt at best. And the reason for that I assume is that because you are unable to even grasp the basics of the thing you are trying to disprove must mean the entire thing is flawed, because it is of course impossible for you to not understand something.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Fuzzwood

[kayzumfelde]

You say I am wrong because you say so. You give no proofs for this. Just that mainstream says so. I have given the logical conclusions why my theory can be right.

 

The basics which are building my theory are biology, biochemistry and chemistry and not medicine. Especially biochemistry is interesting. Blood runs everywhere around everywhere in the body, except the corneal eye. That's a fact. I say it again. And the pH value is influenced by for example alcohol and this can lead to serious issues.

 

And food is made of chemical compounds which are dissociated in the body. Thus the pH value of blood and these of other regions are interconnected. That means they are influencing each other. That's all (bio-)chemistry and thus well accepted, right?

[hypervalent_iodine]

You say I am wrong because you say so. You give no proofs for this. Just that mainstream says so. I have given the logical conclusions why my theory can be right.

 

The basics which are building my theory are biology, biochemistry and chemistry and not medicine. Especially biochemistry is interesting. Blood runs everywhere around everywhere in the body, except the corneal eye. That's a fact. I say it again. And the pH value is influenced by for example alcohol and this can lead to serious issues.

 

And food is made of chemical compounds which are dissociated in the body. Thus the pH value of blood and these of other regions are interconnected. That means they are influencing each other. That's all (bio-)chemistry and thus well accepted, right?

 

The pH of your food will not change the pH of your blood. It will change the pH of your urine. I'm not denying that you might observe health benefits, but I am denying that it is related to blood pH. Have you considered that it is just a result of eating more vegetables?

[kayzumfelde]

In 2015 I was diagnosed with arthrosis in my left food. I was already a vegetarian. I didn't want to take medication against pain. I googled for a self-help group. There was coming up some German group, and it leads to a site where that Fisseler was presenting his book about arthrosis based on the ideas by Prof Dr. med Lothar Wendt. According to his theory arthrosis is based on an acidity/base imbalance of the human body. The body was becoming acidic. The book gives a recommendation to eat fruits and vegetables that are leading back to a alkalic state. I called some woman who posted on the homepage of the self-help group, that this diet helped her. She's a doctor. Then I started with this diet and after 6 or 8 weeks the pain was gone. Now I eat sometimes eggs or cheese. When I eat too much the pain comes back.

 

The idea that it changes the pH of blood came up afterwards not a long time ago. I don't deny that the change is only slightly, but it hasn't been undertaken research if this causes problems. And also it wasn't considered, as far as of my knowledge that everyone has a specific range of pH blood which is healthy for her/him. I think there should be done research.

[John Cuthber]

Well, buffering cannot be extended to the infinite. It's only a factor 20, f.e. if considering bicarbonate/carbon acid. That you can proof that by googling for it. And metabolism is influencing everything also pH of blood. And the pH of blood is essentiell for the health of the body. We are clear of that, or aren't we?

 

Because I am the only one who is supporting my point of view, doesn't mean that I have to be the only one who needs to proof his point of view. You have also to proof what you say. You only come up lately with suggestions. Those suggestions can be only true by coincidence. They have no logical basis.

Look, try to keep up here.

Food does not change the pH of the blood in any meaningful way.

Part of the reason is that the pH of blood is heavily buffered.

However why don't you just think about it for a minute or two.

What's the first thing that happens to food in the body?

It gets slurried up with fairly strong acid.

 

it's clearly not going to make anything alkaline after that, is it?

 

So the idea is absurd.

You can stop posting about it now.

 

[kayzumfelde]

Well, as I tried to make clear, food changes the pH level of the acid. Because the pH values in all regions of the body are different and they are interrelated. That means they are connected. Thus the pH of blood changes too. What's so difficult understanding this? Of course problems usually don't arise especially because of the buffering system. But when they arise it must have to do with pH value. That's because every chemical compound influences the pH value. That's because food has a pH value, since it is a chemical compound. That are basics of chemistry.

[Fuzzwood]

What is so difficult to understand that you have to go further than anecdotal evidence and "it is so because I say so"?

 

Also breathing influences blood pH pretty well. It is what keeps the buffer as stable as it is by regulating the amount of bicarbonate in the stream.

 

[That's because every chemical compound influences the pH value. That's because food has a pH value, since it is a chemical compound. That are basics of chemistry.]

 

Not true. Read up what pH actually is and how it is defined.

[John Cuthber]

Well, as I tried to make clear, food changes the pH level of the acid. ... Thus the pH of blood changes too. What's so difficult understanding this? ...

It isn't a problem with our understanding.

The problem is that your assertion is measurably, demonstrably false.

 

Either show some measurements to prove your point (good luck with that) or accept that you are wrong.

[kayzumfelde]

I cannot be wrong. It is simple biochemistry and chemistry that solutions are interconnected within the body. Can't you see that the gut is connected to the blood stream. Now I found some source that research is now going into the correct direction.

 

"There is some evidence that the gut may modulate systemic acidosis in experimental endotoxemia by removing anions from the plasma [35]. The full capacity of this organ to affect acid–base balance is unknown, however." See:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC137247/

[John Cuthber]

Do you not see the irony there?

You have cited a paper that explains that the body (specifically the gut) is able to control blood pH, but you are trying to say that it shows that blood pH is not controlled.

 

In the mean time, my blood pH is pretty much identical to what it has been all along.

I cannot be wrong.

Practically never a sensible thing to say.

[kayzumfelde]

Didn't you see this:

 

"There is some evidence that the gut may modulate systemic acidosis in experimental endotoxemia by removing anions from the plasma [35]. The full capacity of this organ to affect acid–base balance is unknown, however."

That means the effect of the gut is unknown. Thus there's needed additional research to find out the connection between the gut and other systems of the body and "there is some evidence that the gut may modulate systemic acidosis in experimental endotoxemia by removing anions from the (blood-) plasma." Removing anions from the blood plasma. Thus a change in the pH of blood!

[John Cuthber]

Yes I saw it. Also, I understood it.

 

There's a thermostat in my house- it lets me control the temperature.

I can turn the temperature up or down.

But, at least in principle, the temperature stays the same whether it's hot or cold outside.

 

Just because I can change the set point doesn't mean that the weather affects the inside temperature.

 

There's a pH regulator in the body (actually there are several)

you can turn them up or down- that article shows one way of doing that.

But that's not the same as saying that eating different food changes the pH.

 

Part of the problem is that the blood doesn't have a single pH.
It loses CO2 as it goes through the lungs- and so the pH rises slightly.

Similarly, as it goes though other tissues, it loses O2 and gains CO2 which causes the pH to fall slightly.

 

Changes in pH as it passes the gut are smaller than those, and they get "undone" by the lungs + the kidneys, so they can't really be said to be a change.
And even then, the change is very short lived before the buffer and feedback systems pull the blood pH back to what it should be.

 

So food doesn't change blood pH.

 

It really is time you stopped going on about this.

[kayzumfelde]

I think, your problem is that you don't deny that pH's can change through their interrelation. I think you have a problem with the idea that food has a pH, or why can't you see that the pH's of everything in the body whether it is consumed or not is interrelated. I don't deny that the changes of pH's in blood are slight, but that seems to be enough as many examples have been shown, including that of arthrosis in my body or that of Venus Williams who suffered from an autoimmune disease, the Sjögren's syndrome:

 

I said that it could take some time until the pH's change which is a result of buffering.

[John Cuthber]

I think, your problem is that you don't deny that pH's can change through their interrelation. I think you have a problem with the idea that food has a pH, or why can't you see that the pH's of everything in the body whether it is consumed or not is interrelated. I don't deny that the changes of pH's in blood are slight, but that seems to be enough as many examples have been shown, including that of arthrosis in my body or that of Venus Williams who suffered from an autoimmune disease, the Sjögren's syndrome:

 

I said that it could take some time until the pH's change which is a result of buffering.

Your problem is that you refuse to accept that there is an active system which measures the blood pH and takes action to ensure that it is held at a chosen value.

it's true that food has a pH.

You seem not to understand that urine has a pH too.

If the body was heading for too much acid it would pee out the excess, if it's too alkaline it pees out the excess.

And there's also the fact that we breathe out acid.

 

We are a pipe, not a bucket.

 

Incidentally, if the joint pain you suffer from is gout then the change in diet would explain why it went away.

Gout is caused by too much uric acid in the joints. If you stop eating so much DNA then you produce less uric acid.

 

Vegetarian diets are relatively low in DNA.

[kayzumfelde]

Well I would like to know, what in your eyes is the active system, that 'measures' the pH of blood. I think with the active system measuring the pH you mean it controls the pH. Well all pH's, except that of the corneal eye, are interrelated and thus everything 'interact' with the blood pH, since as I say again, blood is everywhere except in the corneal of the eye. You have the problem that you don't see the body as being a whole system that works together. Of course it tries to keep the pH of blood at the same level, and buffering supports it, because it is essentially for staying alive, but: the pH of blood can get into trouble if f.e. an organ doesn't work properly anymore. It is out of the question that itself the pH of blood could also get into problems by the environment or by some food which is not the proper food anymore. That's because the work of the buffers could become to function not well anymore. See alcohol for example. Drinking too much alcohol leads to problems. And very often it takes some time in order to work not properly anymore. We are lucky that it is so, because if not we all would become ill all the time and humans would be extinct. Also specific medication can lead to trouble.

 

And I think, since all humans are different, it depends on the specific human, if it gets into problems or not. And if you don't believe my case of arthrosis, haven't you red about Venus Williams as I suggested? Do you think she's lying?

 

And I meant not vegetarian diet, I meant an alkaline, in my case, vegan diet. Also Venus Williams' diet is vegan.

[John Cuthber]

Well, to be fair "The sensor for the plasma HCO−3 concentration is not known for certain. It is very probable that the renal tubular cells of the distal convoluted tubules are themselves sensitive to the pH of the plasma."

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80%93base_homeostasis

But there's clearly something controlling it.

 

Venus Williams has Sjogren's syndrome which is an immune system problem.
She believes that her diet affects the condition.
No evidence has been put forward to support this

Anecdotes aren't really data.
Incidentally;
http://www.clearlyveg.com/blog/2016/09/01/venus-williams-not-completely-vegan

 

 

It is possible for the pH control of the body to get upset by organ failure.

If that control gets far out of what it should be, you die.

Nothing to do with diet.

[kayzumfelde]

Venus' problem as I said Sjögren's syndrome. This is an autoimmune disease and she doesn't change her life except for staying on a vegan diet:

 

"I started for health reasons. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, and I wanted to maintain my performance on the court. Once I started I fell in love with the concept of fueling your body in the best way possible. Not only does it help me on the court, but I feel like I’m doing the right thing for me."

http://www.health.com/nutrition/venus-williams-raw-vegan-diet

 

If this is not a proof, what else is then a proof.

 

Well, if we stay with your example of an organ failure: Where does it come from? Just out of nowhere? There must be an influence from the environment or from consumption of something. And these influences change at the end the pH of blood.

[John Cuthber]

 

 

If this is not a proof, what else is then a proof.

 

Well, if we stay with your example of an organ failure: Where does it come from? Just out of nowhere? There must be an influence from the environment or from consumption of something. And these influences change at the end the pH of blood.

It's not proof- because it's perfectly possible that it is a coincidence.

Also, it's perfectly possible that the diet changed the course of the disease- but there's no reason to suppose that this has anything to do with blood pH is there?

 

You just made that up- it's imaginary.

 

 

Being dead will change your blood pH and eating cyanide in significant quantities will lead to you being dead.

So eating lots of cyanide will change your blood pH.

 

So, if you consider that cyanide is food then you can say that food affects blood pH.

If, however you are rational and don't consider things that are poisonous to be food then food doesn't change blood pH.

 

Any number of things can cause organ damage- infection, age, injury whatever.

So there's no logical reason to assume (as you have ) that the cause is food.

In particular, there is no reason to think that a vegan diet influences blood pH, is there?

[kayzumfelde]

I didn't talk about cyanide. As I said that food seems to change the pH of blood slightly. The pH of blood has to be relatively constant. And as I said in an earlier message: It seems to be different for every human beings. It needs to be between 7.35 and 7.45. So it can be that f.e. a specific human being needs to have a pH in blood around 7.42, and for another at 7.37.

 

And that the vegan diet for example works in case of Venus Williams is not by coincidence. She is definitely not the only person where a vegan diet helped with respect to chronic diseases. I have only the German source in the case of arthrosis, but you may are able to translate the page:

 

http://www.arthroseselbsthilfe.de/

 

I followed the tips on the site and spoke with some doctor who also suffered from arthrosis. She followed the alkaline vegan diet for some months in order to change her state. Myself I followed the alkaline vegan diet for several weeks. Then the arthrosis vanished. And I didn't change anything but food. I think I wrote this down several times. So, the first question is: how much does it change the pH of blood? And second: How slight is the change? That's, and I say it again, because blood is distributed to the whole body except the corneal eye.

[John Cuthber]

I didn't talk about cyanide. As I said that food seems to change the pH of blood slightly. The pH of blood has to be relatively constant. And as I said in an earlier message: It seems to be different for every human beings. It needs to be between 7.35 and 7.45. So it can be that f.e. a specific human being needs to have a pH in blood around 7.42, and for another at 7.37.

 

And that the vegan diet for example works in case of Venus Williams is not by coincidence. She is definitely not the only person where a vegan diet helped with respect to chronic diseases. I have only the German source in the case of arthrosis, but you may are able to translate the page:

 

http://www.arthroseselbsthilfe.de/

 

I followed the tips on the site and spoke with some doctor who also suffered from arthrosis. She followed the alkaline vegan diet for some months in order to change her state. Myself I followed the alkaline vegan diet for several weeks. Then the arthrosis vanished. And I didn't change anything but food. I think I wrote this down several times. So, the first question is: how much does it change the pH of blood? And second: How slight is the change? That's, and I say it again, because blood is distributed to the whole body except the corneal eye.

No.

You didn't talk about cyanide.

Nobody said you did.

Why did you bother to say that?

 

What you did talk about was

"...organ failure: Where does it come from? Just out of nowhere? There must be an influence from the environment or from consumption of something."

And I pointed out that cyanide would be something you could consume that caused organ failure.

But it isn't food.

Things that you consume and which destroy your organs are poisons.

 

Your link is helpful because it clarifies what you think.

However, what you think is wrong.

I only need to find one vegan with arthritis and the "cure" vanishes.

 

It's possible that a vegan diet helps arthritis (and- as I said- in the case of one form of arthritis, it will certainly help. There are not many vegans with gout.)

 

That doesn't mean it has anything to do with pH of the blood does it?

 

It's like saying penicillin helps with infections because it changes the pH of the blood.

Well it doesn't change the pH, it kills bacteria.

 

You seem to believe that the only thing that can change a person's illness is the pH of the blood.

That is nonsense.

[kayzumfelde]

No I don't say, that the only thing that can change a person's illness is the pH of blood. Well, I say that the pH of blood has changed when a person becomes ill. And that illness can be caused f.e. by poisons, bacteria, viruses, clearly also alcohol and also eating wrong food for some time and then also the environment can be responsible.

 

It can be taken months or even years until a chronic disease manifests. It's obvious that the pH of blood is incorporated, because as I say it again, blood is everywhere in the body, except in the corneal of the eye. You seem to ignore this and you also seem to ignore, that everything is interrelated in the human body. You should know this. I don't know how many times I said this in my messages. One has to change back the pH of blood to its original value or range of values. And in chronic diseases it is possible by following a well-adjusted vegan diet. Also a very positive attitude can help a lot, since so many chronic diseases seem to be psychosomatic.

 

You seem to ignore that there must be some measure of the performance of f.e. an organ is taken by the pH.

 

"Extremely high or low pH values generally result in complete loss of activity for most enzymes. pH is also a factor in the stability of enzymes. As with activity, for each enzyme there is also a region of pH optimal stability."

 

http://www.worthington-biochem.com/introbiochem/effectsph.html

 

This is not far away from the statement, that the pH is extremely important, not to say the most important measure in order to understand why the body works fine or not. And I believe you cannot deny that the pH's are interrelated or can you?

 

And I didn't suffer from arthritis, I suffered from arthrosis.