Producing a hierarchy of human life .

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I find myself studying the goldfish in my pool , and seeing how I stack up in the hirarcy of living things .

In my immediate hirarcy , I am clearly ' Up Here ' and they are quite content to be ' down there'

 

I feed them , battle off the foes like frogs . Feed them , count them , clean their water, plant water plants, reeds .

We have a good relation.

 

What I wonder is what if I think about the other way ?

 

What is next above me , looking down ?

 

 

 

Mike

[Daecon]

Probably the government.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Probably the government.

Yes , but they are just human , like me .

As I am a different species to the fish , a more advanced species , by some good measure.

 

What is the next species ' up the way ' to us humans ?

 

Mike

[Delta1212]

Seems more like you're a servant to the fish.

[Daecon]

Yes , but they are just human , like me .

As I am a different species to the fish , a more advanced species , by some good measure.

 

What is the next species ' up the way ' to us humans ?

 

Mike

Oh that's easy.

 

It's cats.

[John Cuthber]

Why assume there is anything?

[Strange]

I don't see a hierarchy. At best there is a (partially) directed graph. You can choose different organisms to be on "top" depending on your criteria.

 

If there were a hierarchy, I see no need (or likelihood) for it to extend infinitely in both directions, so the question "who is above" (or below) is not necessarily meaningful.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I don't see a hierarchy. At best there is a (partially) directed graph. You can choose different organisms to be on "top" depending on your criteria.

 

If there were a hierarchy, I see no need (or likelihood) for it to extend infinitely in both directions, so the question "who is above" (or below) is not necessarily meaningful.

.

 

Firstly I would like to demonstrate , that a layer of hierarch actually exists , based on " fear " and " lack of fear " .

 

A few moments ago , ( you need to know ,we in England are in the middle of some form of abnormal ' Heat Wave ' )

I am breathless with the heat , I thought I must put my feet in water . Seeing the fish in the pond , I thought Ideal ( big expance of cold water ( ideal ) . One of the gold fish was right at the edge ,where I wanted to put my feet. Our relationship is there but a bit ' stand off ish ' at times

 

I gently lowered my feet in , gasping for cold . The goldfish did not move , just a few inches away . Extraordinary .it stayed there for quite some time , then moved into the distance to the other fish .

 

Our relationship exists !

 

!

 

We now need to look up and down the Hierarchy. Exciting

 

Mike

 

Maybe I need to put my head in the pond with my goggles and snorkel ?

Edited June 20, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[DrP]

The thoughts of Cats and Dogs:

 

"They feed me, groom me, let me out when I want to go out, clean up my droppings...."....

 

DOGS:....."They must be Gods!"

CATS......"I must be a God!"

GOLDFISH...."if he puts his foot in here I can nibble the cheese off of it"

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The thoughts of Cats and Dogs:

 

"They feed me, groom me, let me out when I want to go out, clean up my droppings...."....

 

DOGS:....."They must be Gods!"

CATS......"I must be a God!"

GOLDFISH...."if he puts his foot in here I can nibble the cheese off of it"

Yes, very good !

 

But now I need to work out ? In the Heirarchi 's ?

 

Gold Fish , what do they look down upon . ( they look up to me , but what downwards)

Humans , what do we look up to ? ( the gold fish downward , but what upwards )

 

Mike

 

Phew ! It's like an oven down here in southwest England. I think I might just get in the pool ( lock , stock , and barrel )

Edited June 20, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[DrP]

I would say they probably look up to John Cleese and Ronnie Barker... but probably look down on Ronnie Corbett. (if you remember that old sketch ;-) lol )

 

Maybe they look down on grubs and little edible worms... although being honest, I reckon you might be over thinking it, I doubt goldfish think that much about it - not in the same capacity as you do anyway. It has been debunked that they only have a 7 second memory, but I still don't think that they are associated much with deep thought. I do not know if they are capable of picturing their own position in the food chain or not.

 

 

.... PS - It's hot here too in the SE.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I would say they probably look up to John Cleese and Ronnie Barker... but probably look down on Ronnie Corbett. (if you remember that old sketch ;-) lol )

 

Maybe they look down on grubs and little edible worms... although being honest, I reckon you might be over thinking it, I doubt goldfish think that much about it - not in the same capacity as you do anyway. It has been debunked that they only have a 7 second memory, but I still don't think that they are associated much with deep thought. I do not know if they are capable of picturing their own position in the food chain or not.

 

 

.... PS - It's hot here too in the SE.

What do you think the goldfish think of me ?

 

Mike

[DrP]

Not sure... I would GUESS at either ambivalence, because they ignore you when they put your foot in the pond (although this suggests that they are used to you and do not perceive you as a threat... this might just go for any human); love, as in their god because you feed them and are outside of their pond universe and are something incomprehensible to them; they could be frightened by you if they thought you were a predator; or probably very little as they are renowned for having very crap memories.

 

If you were me then I would probably try to romanticise the situation a bit and say that they think of you as a pal... they are your pets after all. That said - I still think that you probably give the situation a lot more thought than they would or indeed ever could. I don't think they are capable of the same kind of contemplative thoughts that you, or even a cat or a dog are capable of. Dogs dream... it shows they do at least form thoughts and fantasies outside of eat, move, eat, poo, move, eat. It is obvious from observing and interacting with dogs and cats that they are capable of thoughts (and feelings?) beyond basic survival. I don't think you are going to get much more than that from a fish though.

[swansont]

Firstly I would like to demonstrate , that a layer of hierarch actually exists , based on " fear " and " lack of fear " .

 

 

Once you define a criterion, you can set up a hierarchy. Animals that have no fear tend to get hurt/killed (often eaten).

 

.... PS - It's hot here too in the SE.

 

In Phoenix, Arizona it's too hot to fly planes today (45-50ºC). Air is too thin at that temperature to generate sufficient lift.

[Klaynos]

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so muchthe wheel, New York, wars and so onwhilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than manfor precisely the same reasons.

 

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, #1)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Once you define a criterion, you can set up a hierarchy. Animals that have no fear tend to get hurt/killed (often eaten).

.

.

I think ' respectful fear 'could certainly be one of the criteria , however I think there are other criteria like demonstrable intelligence for instance , care , bonding and respect for others like ' the young, the less fortunate , the leaders, their mates/ partners ' and no doubt others besides.

 

I care for my goldfish , I also care for my partner/mate, I also fear many living things .

 

Without putting numbers on it , I think it is possible to get a feel for this ' hierarchy ' business , sufficient to look downwards and upwards from the goldfish , and downward and upwards from humans .

 

This should make an interesting excersise.

 

I think we all feel ' care ' , animals , fish , humans alike !

 

Mike

Edited June 20, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

I think ' respectful fear 'could certainly be one of the criteria , however I think there are other criteria like demonstrable intelligence for instance , care , bonding and respect for others like ' the young, the less fortunate , the leaders, their mates/ partners ' and no doubt others besides.

I care for my goldfish , I also care for my partner/mate, I also fear many living things .

Without putting numbers on it , I think it is possible to get a feel for this ' hierarchy ' business , sufficient to look downwards and upwards from the goldfish , and downward and upwards from humans .

This should make an interesting excersise.

I think we all feel ' care ' , animals , fish , humans alike !

Mike

You can pick ones that put humans at the top, sure. You wouldn't be the first.

 

You could measure by numbers of organisms, too. Or many other ways.

[Area54]

Without putting numbers on it , I think it is possible to get a feel for this ' hierarchy ' business , sufficient to look downwards and upwards from the goldfish , and downward and upwards from humans .

 

But wouldn't that simply be the heirarchy as perceived by humans. It would surely be different from any heirarchy perceived by cougars, penguins, or rose bushes? And if that is the case, would it be of any particular value?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

But wouldn't that simply be the heirarchy as perceived by humans. It would surely be different from any heirarchy perceived by cougars, penguins, or rose bushes? And if that is the case, would it be of any particular value?

Yes it would be of value to us as the ' Human Species ' , . Although I might have an academic reason as to how goldfish perceive me as a human , I am more interested in what I can perceive , looking up the heirarcy .( from us as humans )

 

Mike

[swansont]

Yes it would be of value to us as the ' Human Species ' , . Although I might have an academic reason as to how goldfish perceive me as a human , I am more interested in what I can perceive , looking up the heirarcy .( from us as humans )

 

Mike

 

 

You put humans at the top by picking criteria that have is there. Cherry-picking. A circular argument. We would not fare so well if the hierarchy was based on "how long you can survive submerged in water". We would be looking up at goldfish in that instance.

[Manticore]

Presumably the hierarchy "upwards" would point to whatever would supplant the human race. That has to make cockroaches favourite.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Presumably the hierarchy "upwards" would point to whatever would supplant the human race. That has to make cockroaches favourite.

.

I think the hierarchy upwards deserves a serious consideration .

 

However by way of a setting for the upward direction I have today had more experience with the platform I have chosen for this discussion , namely the living environment around me and my goldfish . Today we had a new welcome visitor .

I was staring at one of my nearby goldfish he/she/it was lurking a couple of feet from where I was sitting , being aware the Uk hit a temperature not experienced for 40 years (since 1976 ) . None the less I was sitting there , and who should appear but a dragonfly , which settled on an aquatic green plant not 1 foot from my hand , I captured an image on my I phone of both dragonfly on the plant and goldfish under the weed top right . ( I phone image follows , also paining this afternoon in a session with friends , part finished )

We have here a mini environment , which I can use for discussing the Upward Heirachy) why this is relevant , is , There is nothing staged here ( other than me /observer ) . So from this we can build the possible

upward Heirachy

 

 

 

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

.

I think the hierarchy upwards deserves a serious consideration .

 

However by way of a setting for the upward direction I have today had more experience with the platform I have chosen for this discussion , namely the living environment around me and my goldfish . Today we had a new welcome visitor .

I was staring at one of my nearby goldfish he/she/it was lurking a couple of feet from where I was sitting , being aware the Uk hit a temperature not experienced for 40 years (since 1976 ) . None the less I was sitting there , and who should appear but a dragonfly , which settled on an aquatic green plant not 1 foot from my hand , I captured an image on my I phone of both dragonfly on the plant and goldfish under the weed top right . ( I phone image follows , also paining this afternoon in a session with friends , part finished )

We have here a mini environment , which I can use for discussing the Upward Heirachy) why this is relevant , is , There is nothing staged here ( other than me /observer ) . So from this we can build the possible

upward Heirachy

 

image.jpeg

 

 

image.jpeg

 

Mike

 

 

Upward hierarchy, My fish know me, they come to me to be fed. Some of them actually hide from strangers, many of them actually have personality quirks. I'm not really sure what you mean by hierarchy, intelligence? Among the fish there is a pecking order, some school, some lead the school, others are loners or live in small groups, some eat the others and even when they aren't big enough to eat their tank mates the prey fish tend to avoid the predators.

 

In the wild things are different, some fish seem to actually seek out confrontation, others hide, and octopus love to be fed. In the sea I am low man on the totem pole, sea life chooses to tolerate me or not, an Orca is definitely above me, on land a tiger is above me as is an elephant. I'm not really sure we are talking about the same thing. I see life as a web, not a ladder...

 

BTW I just released a new video of one on my fish tanks, can you tell which fish know me and which ones are new? Not as easy as you would think...

Edited June 22, 2017 by Moontanman

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Upward hierarchy, My fish know me, they come to me to be fed. Some of them actually hide from strangers, many of them actually have personality quirks. I'm not really sure what you mean by hierarchy, intelligence? Among the fish there is a pecking order, some school, some lead the school, others are loners or live in small groups, some eat the others and even when they aren't big enough to eat their tank mates the prey fish tend to avoid the predators.

 

In the wild things are different, some fish seem to actually seek out confrontation, others hide, and octopus love to be fed. In the sea I am low man on the totem pole, sea life chooses to tolerate me or not, an Orca is definitely above me, on land a tiger is above me as is an elephant. I'm not really sure we are talking about the same thing. I see life as a web, not a ladder...

 

BTW I just released a new video of one on my fish tanks, can you tell which fish know me and which ones are new? Not as easy as you would think...

 

Great stuff . More advanced than me in recognising ( what I call Heirachy ) . At the moment I am not trying be too spacific , lest I get it wrong . But I think, even going by my and your experience with your gold fish , we all ( gold fish and humans, seem to take their place and role in the Heirachy. It covers a whole range of behaviour , but the bottom line is we humans are up here on dry land . , and they are down there in the pond . Similarly for the goldfish , they are drifting about like lords of the pond , and what they eat if it's living ( or was alive before the gulped them down ) , down there in the slime or dodging about the surface , one layer of the Heirachy down . ( these crawly things )

 

The big question is " If we are down here on Earth dodging about doing our thing in our level of the Heirachy, what or who is One Notch up from us . There must be something higher up the line , because we are not responsible for happenings or ranking within the great big arena away from Earth. So we can not lay claim to higher up the Heirachy?

 

 

Probably the government.

.

 

My first reaction and reply to " probably the government " was to say NO.

 

But on reflection Government is maybe something we should pursue . After all if left to just run riot we have the sort of thing going on currently .

Things being blown up , people dying in prison , high rise flats catching fire , as well as woodland and a whole plethora of chaos.

 

So yes maybe we should look toward a benign world government as a next Heirachy notch UP .

 

MIKE

Edited June 22, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

Great stuff . More advanced than me in recognising ( what I call Heirachy ) . At the moment I am not trying be too spacific , lest I get it wrong . But I think, even going by my and your experience with your gold fish , we all ( gold fish and humans, seem to take their place and role in the Heirachy. It covers a whole range of behaviour , but the bottom line is we humans are up here on dry land . , and they are down there in the pond . Similarly for the goldfish , they are drifting about like lords of the pond , and what they eat if it's living ( or was alive before the gulped them down ) , down there in the slime or dodging about the surface , one layer of the Heirachy down . ( these crawly things )

 

The big question is " If we are down here on Earth dodging about doing our thing in our level of the Heirachy, what or who is One Notch up from us . There must be something higher up the line , because we are not responsible for happenings or ranking within the great big arena away from Earth. So we can not lay claim to higher up the Heirachy?

 

 

.

 

My first reaction and reply to " probably the government " was to say NO.

 

But on reflection Government is maybe something we should pursue . After all if left to just run riot we have the sort of thing going on currently .

Things being blown up , people dying in prison , high rise flats catching fire , as well as woodland and a whole plethora of chaos.

 

So yes maybe we should look toward a benign world government as a next Heirachy notch UP .

 

MIKE

 

 

The largest category would be bacteria, bacteria dominate everything, from raw numbers to simple volume bacteria are the dominant life forms on this planet. Everything else is an afterthought at best...