Moontanman Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 . I sincerely hope that is not me. I am just a lowly individual , with an inquiring mind desperately trying to find his way in this immense cosmic sea. Doing the thing he only knows how to do . That is. ' ASK his way in this puzzle of life ' . Unfortunately for me , the things I want to know ' how it works ' , is EVERYTHING ! Then, when I find an answer , all I want to do , is jump up and down with glee, and want to tell everybody . Millions of people pose questions on the Internet every day , and get answers every day . Nowerdays , We accept that as normal . I seemed to have tapped into a universe wide, time wide mechanism , that can answer some time wide , universe wide questions . Maybe that is the nature of the Cosmos , namely it is time wide and universe wide network of 'knowledge ' and capable of answering time wide and Universe wide questions , should you care to ask ? ( this all sounds a bit " Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy " ish ) . Yes , well that is the way I found it worked ! When you are a long way away from people , which you must be or you will be categorised as crazy . Then you have exactly what you say , the world divided into three . A chunk to the left , a chunk to the right , and chunk ( one could reasonably say ) is the middle . Having stated audibly , and a few times over , your question IN THE FORM OF A STATEMENT ( like ' Is intelligent life centered at one place in the Cosmos ? ) . Then just gaze about , to the left , to the right , and to the centre area . And wait till you see something significant . Depending on which region has the first significant happening , there is your answer , ( Yes , No, or Ambiguous ) When you see something ' SIGNIFICANT HAPPENING ' , it is obvious what is significant and what is insignificant happening . Note , is it to the RIGHT , LEFT , or CENTRAL Piece of cake ! Warning , do not do this where others can see you . You will be locked up ! . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Next in order HEIRACHY up above Humans . This area of the discussion lends itself well to the ones responsible for OUR observation , and any SYRENDIPODOS COMMUNICATION with is as INDIVIDUAL Humans. NOT at this particular moment , to mankind as a whole . That is a completely different ' Ball Game ' . As in the relationship between me and my fish . My particular fish , not fish kind ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Ok, how do you know this is happening? I have to agree with Area54, unless you can give us some sort of measure/ template for what you mean by hierarchy I don't see how we can really begin to figure this out..
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 9, 2017 Author Posted July 9, 2017 Ok, how do you know this is happening? I have to agree with Area54, unless you can give us some sort of measure/ template for what you mean by hierarchy I don't see how we can really begin to figure this out.. Well I know it is happening , as I have taken part in it over the last 40 years . I almost view it , like " I'll go and ask sir . How we used to handle difficult and insurmountable problems when in 6th form or early years in Uni. So for me to describe ' the HEIRACHY ' that I have been bringing up in this thread , then to give a brief guess at the structure from Gold Fish upwards , I would say it is based of some form of intelligent sensing and recognition , together with a caring measure . So if we start with the gold fish . They clearly are aware of the bugs on the bottom of the pool . Occasionally eat them , probably have little measure of care for the bugs . The fish recognise each other , and more relevant , recognise me.a measure of fear and respect but seem to enjoy being fed. They probably look with Wonder at the Image of me as they look through the water surface . I look down on them with a certain feeling of ranking . Feeding , Caring . I look up to the observing beings which clearly seem to have some form of interest in communication with me from time to time say every month or so . And for all I know have , similar tenuous communication with an unknown large or small number of other humans . Again it's not the sort of question you go around asking people or even you friends . For all I know millions or hardly anyone maybe has this distance sort of contact. I imagine we are fairly boring to the next up in the HEIRARCHY . We could now go on to suppose these observers ( perhaps they are Angels) have contact with other higher HEIRARCHY BEINGS ( perhaps they are ArchAngels . And so on and so on . Just what goes which way I am not sure , ( perhaps I should ask ) Mike .
Moontanman Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 Well I know it is happening , as I have taken part in it over the last 40 years . I almost view it , like " I'll go and ask sir . How we used to handle difficult and insurmountable problems when in 6th form or early years in Uni. So for me to describe ' the HEIRACHY ' that I have been bringing up in this thread , then to give a brief guess at the structure from Gold Fish upwards , I would say it is based of some form of intelligent sensing and recognition , together with a caring measure . So if we start with the gold fish . They clearly are aware of the bugs on the bottom of the pool . Occasionally eat them , probably have little measure of care for the bugs . The fish recognise each other , and more relevant , recognise me.a measure of fear and respect but seem to enjoy being fed. They probably look with Wonder at the Image of me as they look through the water surface . I look down on them with a certain feeling of ranking . Feeding , Caring . I look up to the observing beings which clearly seem to have some form of interest in communication with me from time to time say every month or so . And for all I know have , similar tenuous communication with an unknown large or small number of other humans . Again it's not the sort of question you go around asking people or even you friends . For all I know millions or hardly anyone maybe has this distance sort of contact. I imagine we are fairly boring to the next up in the HEIRARCHY . We could now go on to suppose these observers ( perhaps they are Angels) have contact with other higher HEIRARCHY BEINGS ( perhaps they are ArchAngels . And so on and so on . Just what goes which way I am not sure , ( perhaps I should ask ) Mike . Perhaps you should, I have no idea how to approach this, I simply do not have those feelies you are talking about. Not even when I was doing my best to believe...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 9, 2017 Author Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) Perhaps you should, I have no idea how to approach this, I simply do not have those feelies you are talking about. Not even when I was doing my best to believe... Not sure what you are referring to as " I simply do not have those feelies you are talking about " Did I say anything about ' feelies' ? What did I say about feelies ? Which post ? # ? Mike Edited July 9, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Moontanman Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 Not sure what you are referring to as " I simply do not have those feelies you are talking about " Did I say anything about ' feelies' ? What did I say about feelies ? Mike Ok, I'll take that back, let me say this. Your rigor in judging evidence lacks any possible way to falsify what you assert or to convey that information to others in a way that can be experienced by them. In other works you are just casting a die and deciding the outcome on chance...
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 9, 2017 Author Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) Ok, I'll take that back, let me say this. Your rigor in judging evidence lacks any possible way to falsify what you assert or to convey that information to others in a way that can be experienced by them. In other works you are just casting a die and deciding the outcome on chance... .I am quite capable in testing if some potential ( voltage ) is between 6.05 volt and 6.08 volts if necessary . While dealing with gold fish and ' above human ' beings , I know of no value to measure them by.( either the fish would not stay still long enough before it died of shock . And having never seen an ' above human being' . All I can report is the SYRENDIPODOS action . In other words they are able to slightly change some natural phenomenon. ( without affecting the course of human history ) . Concerned as I was this afternoon that perhaps "should I carry on conducting this simple questioning " . I sat by the river this afternoon . Asked the question three times . Said , LEFT is NO STOP , Right is YES CARRY ON . MIDDLE is ambiguous . I sat for a moment wondering what could happen with the trees in front of me and the river. ( to make a right , left or centre ) The dog suddenly leapt out of a large grass tuft , to my RIGHT . Nearly fell off the bank . Now the deviation of the dogs path is well within the sphere of interference of a free animal , without changing the course of human history . Perhaps we have got so rigorous with 3.2056 volts that we think a " dog leaping out of grass tuft " is not rigorous . Mike Ps I won't embarrass him , but a colleague of ours , on the science forum asked a question about Orthogonality ( right angles ) a year or two back . We both got up at the same time across the globe. He went into a dense Forrest . At the same time he asked his question . When he turned around to look at the path he was on . There appeared to be fallen trees that were not there when he set out. When he returned to look they had fallen over a rock that had two quartz lines that were ar right angles. Sirendipodously . Edited July 9, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Acme Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 ] Jeremiah 14:14 14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. I sincerely hope that is not me. I am just a lowly individual , with an inquiring mind desperately trying to find his way in this immense cosmic sea. Doing the thing he only knows how to do . That is. ' ASK his way in this puzzle of life ' . Unfortunately for me , the things I want to know ' how it works ' , is EVERYTHING ! Then, when I find an answer , all I want to do , is jump up and down with glee, and want to tell everybody . Millions of people pose questions on the Internet every day , and get answers every day . Nowerdays , We accept that as normal . I seemed to have tapped into a universe wide, time wide mechanism , that can answer some time wide , universe wide questions . Maybe that is the nature of the Cosmos , namely it is time wide and universe wide network of 'knowledge ' and capable of answering time wide and Universe wide questions , should you care to ask ? ( this all sounds a bit " Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy " ish ) ... Mike Just pointing out that the process you described is known as divination. It -divination- has been lauded and decried for as long as lauding and decrying have been around. In any case, divination is not scientific and so hardly admissible as evidence in a presumably scientific discussion. (And per my quote, not admissible in a Christian discussion either.) Good luck, keep that thumb up, and if you get a ride may it not be with a psychopath. 1
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 9, 2017 Author Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) Just pointing out that the process you described is known as divination. It -divination- has been lauded and decried for as long as lauding and decrying have been around. In any case, divination is not scientific and so hardly admissible as evidence in a presumably scientific discussion. (And per my quote, not admissible in a Christian discussion either.) Good luck, keep that thumb up, and if you get a ride may it not be with a psychopath. .Yes I can see what you are getting at . But I have just read Wikipedia definition and a few other descriptions . Divination is mainly the looking for signs like shape of tea leaves patterns . And or carrying out some form of ritual . My suggestion was just asking a question , outright, and asking for the answer ( little more tricky ). But the protocol or language was just tri. Three symbols .. Left right or centre. I could be signalling a traffic controller down the road ( with lights suddenly stop working ) this signal means this . That signal means that . I am not asking anybody to cut the tail off a cat and use it in a dance. I think I am quite safe , I am only asking some advanced life , one step up on humans to , signal some simple answers , 1) right 2) wrong , 3) in between . Why should we not talk to , the next higher species up from humans I do not think it was considered wrong to attempt to speak to an angel . There are several accounts of contact with and speaking to Angels . I think someone wrestled with one. And the Apostle John imprisoned on the isle of Patmos saw several Angels and was told not to bow to them as they were just fellow .. Something or others .. However it does not do wrong to warn against out and out ritualistic , looking at animals entrails and tea leaves . Dancing about like a whirling Derbeshire ! All I want is to have some simple communication with the next most intelligent creature up the intelligent Hierarchy so I can ask some technical questions about the cosmos and the structure of life within it. I am not asking a lot . I think we are even admonished to persevere with giving the guy at the top a call from time to time . We'll blow me down with a feather , we have gone the whole HIERARCHY from the Top , down in steps all the way to the fishes. Mike Edited July 9, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Moontanman Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) . I am quite capable in testing if some potential ( voltage ) is between 6.05 volt and 6.08 volts if necessary . While dealing with gold fish and ' above human ' beings , I know of no value to measure them by.( either the fish would not stay still long enough before it died of shock . And having never seen an ' above human being' . All I can report is the SYRENDIPODOS action . In other words they are able to slightly change some natural phenomenon. ( without affecting the course of human history ) . Concerned as I was this afternoon that perhaps "should I carry on conducting this simple questioning " . I sat by the river this afternoon . Asked the question three times . Said , LEFT is NO STOP , Right is YES CARRY ON . MIDDLE is ambiguous . I sat for a moment wondering what could happen with the trees in front of me and the river. ( to make a right , left or centre ) The dog suddenly leapt out of a large grass tuft , to my RIGHT . Nearly fell off the bank . Now the deviation of the dogs path is well within the sphere of interference of a free animal , without changing the course of human history . Perhaps we have got so rigorous with 3.2056 volts that we think a " dog leaping out of grass tuft " is not rigorous . Mike Ps I won't embarrass him , but a colleague of ours , on the science forum asked a question about Orthogonality ( right angles ) a year or two back . We both got up at the same time across the globe. He went into a dense Forrest . At the same time he asked his question . When he turned around to look at the path he was on . There appeared to be fallen trees that were not there when he set out. When he returned to look they had fallen over a rock that had two quartz lines that were ar right angles. Sirendipodously . To me you are assigning meaning where none really exists. As I said before you could roll dice and get the same results but in a much more complex way. Not to mention this "divining" being a really arbitrary thing. I have some experience with this. I was raised to think I was a water witch, I used to forked willow branch to find water many times. I've never been really sure since adulthood how that really worked. I think that finding water is much easier than people think and most of the time when you drill down in certain areas you will find water. Having said that on at least two occasions I found water after the driller had bored several dry holes. It had to be coincidence but at the time it was an enormous feeling of power. I'll quote AronRa and say, "if you can't show it you don't know it" ... The whole idea of hierarchy is really tough to wrap my mind around. You say this: All I want is to have some simple communication with the next most intelligent creature up the intelligent Hierarchy so I can ask some technical questions about the cosmos and the structure of life within it. And yet you have no working definition of how you equate intelligence. Technology? A flawed yardstick for sure IMHO. Brain size? We have to go back to a sperm whale having a complex brain as big as a bushel basket. And elephants having a brain bigger than a basketball and elephants display complex behaviors we can identify with. Angels? This smells very strongly of the supernatural something you have to show the existence of before you can go there. As I have said before technology doesn't immediately bring you superbeing status and things like the speed of light limit your ability to communicate over distances. I am trying Mike but I just can't quite reach you on this... Edited July 9, 2017 by Moontanman 1
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 10, 2017 Author Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) To me you are assigning meaning where none really exists. As I said before you could roll dice and get the same results but in a much more complex way. Not to mention this "divining" being a really arbitrary thing. I have some experience with this. I was raised to think I was a water witch, I used to forked willow branch to find water many times. I've never been really sure since adulthood how that really worked. I think that finding water is much easier than people think and most of the time when you drill down in certain areas you will find water. Having said that on at least two occasions I found water after the driller had bored several dry holes. It had to be coincidence but at the time it was an enormous feeling of power. I'll quote AronRa and say, "if you can't show it you don't know it" ... The whole idea of hierarchy is really tough to wrap my mind around. You say this: And yet you have no working definition of how you equate intelligence. Technology? A flawed yardstick for sure IMHO. Brain size? We have to go back to a sperm whale having a complex brain as big as a bushel basket. And elephants having a brain bigger than a basketball and elephants display complex behaviors we can identify with. Angels? This smells very strongly of the supernatural something you have to show the existence of before you can go there. As I have said before technology doesn't immediately bring you superbeing status and things like the speed of light limit your ability to communicate over distances. I am trying Mike but I just can't quite reach you on this... . Well I must say , . Your post quoted above , made for an interesting and enjoyable read ! It's nice to be given the freedom by you To discuss things I would not dream of discussing , with many other people . If there are " highly intelligent creatures " around ,or contactable by us , from the next up in the Heirachy that I have proposed then , that must be the most enjoyable experience , one could have in your entire life ! That is why my very First attempt to forge this link ( back in the 1990's, was from the middle of the moor , miles away from anyone and any place , and looking up in the sky , shouted out " IS THERE ANYBODY THERE , " ....... from which the whole ball started to role for my supposed contact with the next layer of intelligence . ( Either that or someone is playing the most extra-ordinary game with me over half of my life. ). Ps as a side issue yet related in some way :- A few years ago , I was rummaging in a new and second hand book shop in Illminster, Devon . Like something out of a movie . An Old Timer , fairly well spoken , raised his head above the inevitable pile of new and second hand books. I must have asked for some subject or other , can't remember . But I ended up buying this book , that I have since displaced or lost . ( Book called "Are there such things as Angels ? ") . Needless to say , our home and Cafe and house in Italy , are immersed in Books . This is the tip of the icebergs , . Times this ( X 5 ) by those books scattered by ones sent to charity shops etc . Back to the Book : it was written by someone doing their PHD In theology . She chose to do this research , not believing YES/NO Either way herself . She advertised on Radio , and many other ways to source for information . I read the book and was staggered, absolutely staggered, how many people responded to her advertisement , with a complete range and numbers upon numbers of different , experience of some form or another , mainly ( if not all) invisible , yet interactive contact . Pps . You keep asking me to define this next layer of Hierarchy , or Hierarchy at any level , which I find difficult to know or explain . Other than the answer itself is no doubt very informative . I suspect that there is a threshold that gets crossed between my fish and I , which is not dissimilar to the threshold that exists in LEDS and Lazars. , namely once struck the devise ' Lazes' until a certain lower threshold is fallen toward and the Lazzing collapses . I am not sure what happens at the upper threshold ( which there probably is not one ( other than the lazer burns out . If this is a good analogy then the struck lazer is at a set fixed level , increased amplitude only increases expance of light not level of radiation ( say frequency , which is why LEDs and lasers are of a fixed frequency ) . If this IS so for advanced life then the Hierarchy may NOT EXTEND much higher BUT spread out across the whole universe/cosmos as a size rather than Level . Mike Edited July 10, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 14, 2017 Author Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) . Well I must say , . Your post quoted above , made for an interesting and enjoyable read ! It's nice to be given the freedom by you To discuss things I would not dream of discussing , with many other people . If there are " highly intelligent creatures " around ,or contactable by us , from the next up in the Heirachy that I have proposed then , that must be the most enjoyable experience , one could have in your entire life ! That is why my very First attempt to forge this link ( back in the 1990's, was from the middle of the moor , miles away from anyone and any place , and looking up in the sky , shouted out " IS THERE ANYBODY THERE , " ....... from which the whole ball started to role for my supposed contact with the next layer of intelligence . ( Either that or someone is playing the most extra-ordinary game with me over half of my life. ). Ps as a side issue yet related in some way :- A few years ago , I was rummaging in a new and second hand book shop in Illminster, Devon . Like something out of a movie . An Old Timer , fairly well spoken , raised his head above the inevitable pile of new and second hand books. I must have asked for some subject or other , can't remember . But I ended up buying this book , that I have since displaced or lost . ( Book called "Are there such things as Angels ? ") . Needless to say , our home and Cafe and house in Italy , are immersed in Books . This is the tip of the icebergs , . Times this ( X 5 ) by those books scattered by ones sent to charity shops etc . Back to the Book : it was written by someone doing their PHD In theology . She chose to do this research , not believing YES/NO Either way herself . She advertised on Radio , and many other ways to source for information . I read the book and was staggered, absolutely staggered, how many people responded to her advertisement , with a complete range and numbers upon numbers of different , experience of some form or another , mainly ( if not all) invisible , yet interactive contact . Pps . You keep asking me to define this next layer of Hierarchy , or Hierarchy at any level , which I find difficult to know or explain . Other than the answer itself is no doubt very informative . I suspect that there is a threshold that gets crossed between my fish and I , which is not dissimilar to the threshold that exists in LEDS and Lazars. , namely once struck the devise ' Lazes' until a certain lower threshold is fallen toward and the Lazzing collapses . I am not sure what happens at the upper threshold ( which there probably is not one ( other than the lazer burns out . If this is a good analogy then the struck lazer is at a set fixed level , increased amplitude only increases expance of light not level of radiation ( say frequency , which is why LEDs and lasers are of a fixed frequency ) . If this IS so for advanced life then the Hierarchy may NOT EXTEND much higher BUT spread out across the whole universe/cosmos as a size rather than Level . Mike . If what I have said in this last entry , is in any near way correct ( which I acknowledge is not necessary the case ) however here goes on an attempt at the...... . ................... HIERARCHY OF HUMAN LIFE ................... 1. Then the very top must be GOD ( which is by most people's definition ' the Almighty, Everywhere, Everything , ....................Taking a bit of beating , to go any higher . ) 2. Angels ( including Arc angels ) 3. Humans ( or Human like ) 4. Fish ( and others) ...................................~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~............................. THIS MEANS , we can interact with any of these four levels of the HIERARCHY ( al be it ) that some levels may be through inter mediators .................................................................................................... It's interesting that the British Museum , is just arranging the largest Known living entity in the world to be on display in the Museum Namely a Massive , massive , whale ? It is no supprised then , that one of the greatest ever science fiction writers in the world (Arthur .C. Clark ) { great Wireless Scientist of the 1940'/50 s , renown for his forsight on future inventions in both mechanical, electrical , atomic and space science . renown Science Fiction Stories} In his predictive SF Story 2001/10/ etc a Space Odessy . He predicted mankind finding life on Europa ( the water and ice world one of Jupiters moons ) His prediction was of giant intelligent whales / fish inhabiting the seas of EUROPA . As well as Jupiter itself turning into a small local Sun . All-be-it a story , his insight has many times proved to be correct . So may be in a small way this enhances my suggestion of the Human interface Hierarchy suggested above . Mike Edited July 14, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Airbrush Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 "Hierarchy of human life" sounds like a caste system, superior and inferior groups of people.
Area54 Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 ................... HIERARCHY OF HUMAN LIFE ................... 1. Then the very top must be GOD ( which is by most people's definition ' the Almighty, Everywhere, Everything , ....................Taking a bit of beating , to go any higher . ) The evidence for a GOD is incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient (hence the need for faith). 2. Angels ( including Arc angels ) The evidence for angels is practically non-existent, without abandoning all critical thinking. 3. Humans ( or Human like ) While I shall readily agree with you that humans exist you have still failed to offer anything other than opinion an anecdote to justify their alleged position above all other known life forms. Do you intend to continue to ignore this central weakness of your argument? 4. Fish ( and others) See previous point. .....THIS MEANS , we can interact with any of these four levels of the HIERARCHY ( al be it ) that some levels may be through inter mediators No. If I concede, temporarily, that all these four levels exist it does not mean we can necessarily interact with them. You pulled that one out of a vacuum. It's interesting that the British Museum , is just arranging the largest Known living entity in the world to be on display in the MuseumNamely a Massive , massive , whale ? Several minor, technical points here. Are you unsure about it being a whale? If not, why the question mark? While technically the museum you refer to is (or was at one time) the British Museum of Natural History, it has been known for some time simply as the Natural History Muesum. The British Museum is located on the other side of town and has now whales, unless there are carvings of them in the Elgin Marbles. The whale has long been on display in the museum. It was certainly there when I visited a few decades ago. The museum is simply relocating it to pride of place in the central hall. And, less technically, so what? I don't catch how this is relevant to your argument. It is no supprised then , that one of the greatest ever science fiction writers in the world (Arthur .C. Clark ) { great Wireless Scientist of the 1940'/50 s , renown for his forsight on future inventions in both mechanical, electrical , atomic and space science . renown Science Fiction Stories} In his predictive SF Story 2001/10/ etc a Space Odessy . He predicted mankind finding life on Europa ( the water and ice world one of Jupiters moons ) His prediction was of giant intelligent whales / fish inhabiting the seas of EUROPA . As well as Jupiter itself turning into a small local Sun . All-be-it a story , his insight has many times proved to be correct . His story was not intended to be predictive. Nor were his thoughts on the possibility of life on Europa original. I just fail to see where you are trying to go with this. So may be in a small way this enhances my suggestion of the Human interface Hierarchy suggested above . I don't think so. 1
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 15, 2017 Author Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) The evidence for a GOD is incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient (hence the need for faith). The evidence for angels is practically non-existent, without abandoning all critical thinking. While I shall readily agree with you that humans exist you have still failed to offer anything other than opinion an anecdote to justify their alleged position above all other known life forms. Do you intend to continue to ignore this central weakness of your argument? See previous point. No. If I concede, temporarily, that all these four levels exist it does not mean we can necessarily interact with them. You pulled that one out of a vacuum. Several minor, technical points here. Are you unsure about it being a whale? If not, why the question mark? While technically the museum you refer to is (or was at one time) the British Museum of Natural History, it has been known for some time simply as the Natural History Muesum. The British Museum is located on the other side of town and has now whales, unless there are carvings of them in the Elgin Marbles. The whale has long been on display in the museum. It was certainly there when I visited a few decades ago. The museum is simply relocating it to pride of place in the central hall. And, less technically, so what? I don't catch how this is relevant to your argument. His story was not intended to be predictive. Nor were his thoughts on the possibility of life on Europa original. I just fail to see where you are trying to go with this. I don't think so. . Natural History Museum .link . . http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/incredible-blue-whale-skeleton-unveiled-at-natural-history-museum-a3586711.html If God is EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE . namely the whole Universe from the Big Bang till now , from the middle of the stars , galaxies , black holes , dark matter , dark energy to every minute atom or sub atomic particle , then that is not " incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient " if all this "STUFF " does not belong to GOD , Who does it belong to ? Or Who or what is responsible for its origination ( it cannot just come out of Nothing , that is even more absurd than saying it has an Origination . Your comment " " The evidence for angels is practically non-existent, without abandoning all critical thinking." The book I quoted ( of which there are many books , including the Bible , give clear cut discussion of contact with Angels . I am afraid we need to get out of our mind , children's books images . Quite often they were not recognised as being non human until after the event ! The book describes people being grabbed from behind , from stepping out into the road , pulled backwards , away from ' the next moment ' a heavy Lorry swishing by. On turning around to thank the person saving their life ' there was nobody there ' many , many examples of this can be given . Your comment " While I shall readily agree with you that humans exist you have still failed to offer anything other than opinion an anecdote to justify their alleged position above all other known life forms. Do you intend to continue to ignore this central weakness of your argument?" The thrust of this thread is to endorse the central idea that " HUMANS " are significant to us because we are humans and not minute bacteria , which no doubt have their role and some form of life , but , my main argument it that of how we fit in , where we fit in , and how important are we to the ' main show ' , if that does not put too flippant a point on it ! I personally think we are very significant , in the whole ' scheme of things ' , both as receivers and givers , certainly as far as the earth is concerned . I think we are allocated to this domain , what happens else where , we may one day maybe find out and ' possibly take part in ' . However I would say there is EVIDENCE for contact and experience with all four of the HIERARCHY SECTIONS that I specified ( GOD, ANGELS, HUMANS, FISH ) to varying degrees with each . However it does interestingly follow the same pattern with each . Namely , the higher Heirachy appears to have more concern for the next lower in the Heirachy. At each and all stages . And upwards less concern for the Heirarchies upward . Eg we all beleive and are concerned for our fish , but less concerned generally for God and Angels ! Such is the nature of these Heirachy. 's Concerning your comment about Arthur C Clark and his stories and inferred predictions . Like Isaac Assimov , their predictive stories were very plausible , because they usually had a scientific yet imaginative link . Hense my comment about prediction . Many of Clarks Ideas are central to current science , though others are not ( so far ) . His reasoning on the Sea being the early origin of life forms seems to ring certain bells from many directions . And the great sea whale recently being given pride of place in the Natural History Museum , seems both , coincidental to my argument as well as redressing and all . As regards " the human condition " , this surely is the whole content of most literature . We could go on for ever about ' the place humans have in the world ' . However it is very interesting , no wonder there are so many if not all ' books ' about " the human condition " ! Man interacting with God ! , God interacting with man ! Angels interacting from time to time with individuals , Men wrestling with an Angel . Angels bringing ' Glad tidings' , men wrestling with great white sharks , or me gazing at my goldfish , counting them , feeding them , making sure their environment is refreshed and fine ! Look at the gold fish at the top left , it is clearly turning to face me . When I stand there for a while , they all turn , for a while , to face me , acknowledging that I am next up the Hierachy! ( or hungry ) LOL ! Ps I think the zig zag white marks are three recently born gold fish , although they are jet black . They are hardly perceptible . Mike Edited July 16, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 A careful reading of your posts inlcines me to accept the reality of extraterrestrial life, as you are certainly on another planet. If God is EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE . namely the whole Universe from the Big Bang till now , from the middle of the stars , galaxies , black holes , dark matter , dark energy to every minute atom or sub atomic particle , then that is not " incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient". That borders on the fatuous. The key word in that statement is "If" and my point is that the evidence to turn that "if" into an "is" is most certainly incomplete, ambigous and insufficient. Making confident pronouncements to the contrary, vigorously expressing opionions, referencing third and fourth hand anecdotes, simply does not cut it. if all this "STUFF " does not belong to GOD , Who does it belong to ? Or Who or what is responsible for its origination ( it cannot just come out of Nothing , that is even more absurd than saying it has an Origination . It need not belong to anyone. Why do you insist that such must be the case? Why do you demand that there be a creator? What makes you think I - or anyone - is claiming the it all came out of nothing. (Setting aside that "things" come out of nothing all the time. See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/ Do you deny their existence?) The book describes people being grabbed from behind , from stepping out into the road , pulled backwards , away from ' the next moment ' a heavy Lorry swishing by. On turning around to thank the person saving their life ' there was nobody there ' many , many examples of this can be given . Unsubstantiated anecdotes from the gullible are hardly the basis for a sound belief system. Do you understand what real evidence is? To date I see little evidence that you do and a great deal to the contrary. As the saying goes, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, but not our own facts. I personally think we are very significant , in the whole ' scheme of things ' , both as receivers and givers , certainly as far as the earth is concerned . I think we are allocated to this domain , what happens else where , we may one day maybe find out and ' possibly take part in ' . This has all the hallmarks of Christian indoctrination - man given dominion over the animals. It's anthropocentric claptrap. If it were true it's a pretty sorry mess we are making of it. I'd rather run with inow's view that we are animals. At least that way we can use the excuse of having been driven by instinct, committed to personal short-term survival and sufficiency. Concerning your comment about Arthur C Clark and his stories and inferred predictions . Like Isaac Assimov , their predictive stories were very plausible , because they usually had a scientific yet imaginative link . Hense my comment about prediction . Many of Clarks Ideas are central to current science , though others are not ( so far ) . His reasoning on the Sea being the early origin of life forms seems to ring certain bells from many directions . And the great sea whale recently being given pride of place in the Natural History Museum , seems both , coincidental to my argument as well as redressing and all Asimov had little or no predictive elements in his stories. In proposing the Three Laws of Robotics he highlighted a future problem and a possible solution. Other than that most of his "predictions" are plot devices. He was, above all, a superb story teller. From Darwin onward, almost every investigator into the origin of life viewed the sea as the birthplace of life. His writings reflect that view. It is most certainly not a view original to him in any way. He was a great lover of the sea - I refer you to his book(s) on diving, called IIRC, The Reefs of Taprobane. Man interacting with God ! , God interacting with man ! Angels interacting from time to time with individuals , Men wrestling with an Angel . Angels bringing ' Glad tidings' , men wrestling with great white sharks , or me gazing at my goldfish , counting them , feeding them , making sure their environment is refreshed and fine ! The fish - man interface is the only one supported by evidence and lots of it. Meanwhile, I think your own passionate belief system, based on an extrapolation of your personal experience with other lifeforms, does provide an interesting illustration of how early man's religious beliefs may have emerged. I thank you for that insight. 1
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 16, 2017 Author Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) A careful reading of your posts inlcines me to accept the reality of extraterrestrial life, as you are certainly on another planet. That borders on the fatuous. The key word in that statement is "If" and my point is that the evidence to turn that "if" into an "is" is most certainly incomplete, ambigous and insufficient. Making confident pronouncements to the contrary, vigorously expressing opionions, referencing third and fourth hand anecdotes, simply does not cut it. It need not belong to anyone. Why do you insist that such must be the case? Why do you demand that there be a creator? What makes you think I - or anyone - is claiming the it all came out of nothing. (Setting aside that "things" come out of nothing all the time. See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/ Do you deny their existence?) Unsubstantiated anecdotes from the gullible are hardly the basis for a sound belief system. Do you understand what real evidence is? To date I see little evidence that you do and a great deal to the contrary. As the saying goes, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, but not our own facts. This has all the hallmarks of Christian indoctrination - man given dominion over the animals. It's anthropocentric claptrap. If it were true it's a pretty sorry mess we are making of it. I'd rather run with inow's view that we are animals. At least that way we can use the excuse of having been driven by instinct, committed to personal short-term survival and sufficiency. Asimov had little or no predictive elements in his stories. In proposing the Three Laws of Robotics he highlighted a future problem and a possible solution. Other than that most of his "predictions" are plot devices. He was, above all, a superb story teller. From Darwin onward, almost every investigator into the origin of life viewed the sea as the birthplace of life. His writings reflect that view. It is most certainly not a view original to him in any way. He was a great lover of the sea - I refer you to his book(s) on diving, called IIRC, The Reefs of Taprobane. The fish - man interface is the only one supported by evidence and lots of it. Meanwhile, I think your own passionate belief system, based on an extrapolation of your personal experience with other lifeforms, does provide an interesting illustration of how early man's religious beliefs may have emerged. I thank you for that insight. . We definitely need to think beyond the earth , as we are nearing capacity now, and the overcrowding is starting to point toward :- Disputes over land masses, food shortages in some parts of this world , pollution due to our world wide industrialisation , and resources handling as well as the energy extraction from material substances like oil and coal ( although not yet depleted ) will become depleted if we expand their use at the current rate of increase in consumption. So Extra Terrestrial Intelligence , space with its opportunity , and knowledge of " greater than current human , thought, behaviour and activity should all be high on the priority list for ' things to consider deeply' . After thousands of years of civilisation , and human thought , we have not even managed to sort out " what is beyond Earth and Mankind ! We are still hacking each other to death ( one way or another ) , and we can't seem to agree our origin , or who / if anyone is in charge of the Earth and the Universe. So maybe my :- Hierachy of ' Fish , Mankind, Spiritualkind , and God ' is not such a bad solution for sorting the world out ? Mike Edited July 16, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 We definitely need to think beyond the earth , as we are nearing capacity now, and the overcrowding is starting to point toward :- <snip> This is equivalent to me saying, "My finances are in bad shape, my employment prospects are minimal, my savings depleted, my expenses on the rise. I definitely need to think of winning the lottery." It is a silly idea and more than that, a dangerous one. It offers a fanciful solution that relies on something beyond us that is only imagined and not proven, rather than addressing the problem through our own knowledge and skills. Shame on you. So maybe my :- Hierachy of ' Fish , Mankind, Spiritualkind , and God ' is not such a bad solution for sorting the world out ? Mike It is not a solution. It is a cowardly reliance upon someone else to help us out of the mess of our own creation.
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) This is equivalent to me saying, "My finances are in bad shape, my employment prospects are minimal, my savings depleted, my expenses on the rise. I definitely need to think of winning the lottery." It is a silly idea and more than that, a dangerous one. It offers a fanciful solution that relies on something beyond us that is only imagined and not proven, rather than addressing the problem through our own knowledge and skills. Shame on you. It is not a solution. It is a cowardly reliance upon someone else to help us out of the mess of our own creation. . No. We have had a ' fair crack of the whip ,' over the last few thousand years , and our record is not good . You do not need me to itemise all our , attempts at living with one another , in peace and harmony . But mostly these times have been a fairly dismal failure . We cannot say we have not had the freedom to try different ' methods of control of each other and the environment . The history of these times makes a good read if one likes war and oppression , and a bad read if you were unfortunate to be born in the poorer conditions . It looks like a forced change is due , by a rearrangement of affairs from the administration from elsewhere . I do not think it would work , by just Hoping things will change . I think change will be forthcoming for our own good . If you can accept interference from further up the HEIRARCHY . Mike Edited July 17, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 Mike, if I understand your argument it is, in outline, this. We have messed up the planet, our relationships between countries, individuals and man's relationship with nature. We have had millenia to get it right and we are failing sadly. Therefore we need outside help to correct the problems. Therefore I believe there is outside help available and, given how bad things are now, it will makes its presence felt soon. If that is not what you meant, please explain your thinking, because that is what has come across in multiple posts from you. If that is what you mean, can you not see how ludicrous it is? - A classic example of wishful thinking.
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Mike, if I understand your argument it is, in outline, this. We have messed up the planet, our relationships between countries, individuals and man's relationship with nature. We have had millenia to get it right and we are failing sadly. Therefore we need outside help to correct the problems. Therefore I believe there is outside help available and, given how bad things are now, it will makes its presence felt soon. If that is not what you meant, please explain your thinking, because that is what has come across in multiple posts from you. If that is what you mean, can you not see how ludicrous it is? - A classic example of wishful thinking. . Well , your summation of my feeling on human history are not wildly adrift from how I feel about human history. I can only use my HIERARCHY model as a means of explaining how I imagine a sort out of the situation will be accomplished. Namely :- If I was finding a succession of days or weeks that I came each morning to look at my fish pond and found that the expansion of the gold fish population ( which does happen in my pond , currently three new black ,goldfish, in addition to the 8 , various sized orange ' goldfish ' ) . That the pond became littered with bits of mutilated fish , strewn about the pond and in fact on the banks and surrounding area. Also some of my favourite mature ,Goldfish , though still alive , were torn with gashes and now looking up at me with fishy ' falorne' appearance and stare, would I not try and make a judgement ,what might have caused this desiccation of my beautiful fish pond environment? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So I choose to make a , 'hide ', and observe for a night or more what is going on . I see these ' birds ' comming down in the very early morning when everyone is still asleep :- swooping , pecking , piercing , generally causing devastation of my tranquil pool. Would I not lay in wait one week . When I observe the offending birds , carefully capture them , and stop them permanently from having any access whatsoever from visiting my pool . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maybe this is the sort of scenario that now currently awaits the Earth , from a HEIRACHY above us . For an extended period . Our Human , earth bound version , of attempts at accomplishing this sort of solution doesn't really work very well ! It needs to come from the Hierarchies above humanity . " MINI, MINI , TECKLE, and PARSIN . .... They have been 'weighed in the balance ' and found wanting " From a famous historic example from the fall of Babylonian Civilisation . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Such might be happening , ( or about to happen ) , quite dramatically and / or quite silently , as we speak ! And may extend for quite some time ! Mike Edited July 18, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 Let me be blunt. If we adopt your approach of hoping that someone, or something, out there, or up there is going to come to our aid, then that is an abrogation of our responsibility for our own futures and for that of our planet. It is an irresponsible and, I must say, an immature approach. It contributes to the problems and cannot, in any way, be characterised as an informed, useful or sound position. I do not wish or intend to give offence Mike, but I consider your view to be a dangerous one. I urge you reconsider your position. I doubt there is much more to be said on the matter from my perspective, so thank you for your time and courtesy. I'll probably bow out of this one. 1
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Let me be blunt. If we adopt your approach of hoping that someone, or something, out there, or up there is going to come to our aid, then that is an abrogation of our responsibility for our own futures and for that of our planet. It is an irresponsible and, I must say, an immature approach. It contributes to the problems and cannot, in any way, be characterised as an informed, useful or sound position. I do not wish or intend to give offence Mike, but I consider your view to be a dangerous one. I urge you reconsider your position. I doubt there is much more to be said on the matter from my perspective, so thank you for your time and courtesy. I'll probably bow out of this one. . Well that is a shame , that you are bowing out , as I have enjoyed your ' jousting ' on this subject . I think sometimes it is a shame , that the first mention of higher life forms , or God ( whatever God is ) . Sends shivers down scientists ' timbers' ( as is ' shiver me timbers' ) . I am currently discussing this subject with an old friend of mine ( 40- years known ) who does not believe there is a God as such , and wonders how I ' see ' God fitting in to science , yet he follows science and is an ex Draghtsman and Artist. . He is not against discussion , of quite what is meant by God , where it is , and how does science fit in . To the Big picture ? My retort is that I do not thing God is at some specified position , but rather he is absolutely everywhere. So , like some astronomically gigantuant material Internet , he is able to see , do , answer, inact , anywhere , at any time , throughout the universe. So this little province of earth is in his domain , and it's time part of his domain needs sorting . I do not think that is unreasonable . He has left it alone for long enough , to see if we can regulate our own affairs . But clearly we are not making a very good job of it , so . time is up ! A radicle change is imminent . Both for the better and some really major adjustments. Mike Edited July 18, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 Well that is a shame , that you are bowing out , as I have enjoyed your ' jousting ' on this subject . I think sometimes it is a shame , that the first mention of higher life forms , or God ( whatever God is ) . Sends shivers down scientists ' timbers' ( as is ' shiver me timbers' ) . I shall bow back in long enough to clarify one point and emphasise another. I don't get shivers down my spine at the mention of higher life forms. So far in this thread I don't think you have given a precise definition of what constitutes a higher life form. That encouraged several members to point out that there were lots of life forms that were entitled to be thought higher than man. It all depended on how you defined higher, which, as noted, you never did with adequate precision. If by higher you meant a sapient and sentient species possessing more "talent" than humans then I accept that these may exist. I also accept that they may not exist. There is insufficient evidence for either case. I'm not from Missouri, but as regards higher life forms I might just as well be. Equally, I have no trouble with the notion that there may be a God, though I consider it highly unlikely that he/she/it is comparable with any of the gods of the world's major religions. So mention of God principally evokes in me a degree of puzzlement that the believer has arrived at that belief with precious little evidence. Now to the second point. So , like some astronomically gigantuant material Internet , he is able to see , do , answer, inact , anywhere , at any time , throughout the universe. So this little province of earth is in his domain , and it's time part of his domain needs sorting . I do not think that is unreasonable . He has left it alone for long enough , to see if we can regulate our own affairs . But clearly we are not making a very good job of it , so . time is up ! A radicle change is imminent . Both for the better and some really major adjustments. Yes. I understand this is what you believe. I can best express my view of this with a story. When I was five or six I was bullied on successive days during playtime at school by an older boy. Some of the more responsible girls in primary four had been assigned as monitors to oversee playtime activities, so I went to one of them for help. She tore a verbal strip off the boy and for a time I had no more problems. My world view was confirmed - when in trouble go to a grown up, or an authority figure and all shall be made well. Some time later I was bullied again, so I followed the previously successful strategy and went to one of the monitors. Her response was different. "Well, if he's bothering you, just hit him." Now that may not have been the best advice, but the thinking behind it was a revelation to me. We are responsible for solving our own problems and should not rely upon someone else to do that for us. That was when, at the age of five or six, I began to grow up. Mike, in holding the beliefs that you do, expecting, hoping, believing, that there is a higher being out there who will correct the errors of our ways I fear you are thinking with the mind of a young child. I urge you to consider that it may be time for you to grow up. Be brave. Accept reality and consign fantasy to the fiction shelves of your beliefs. 2
Mike Smith Cosmos Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I shall bow back in long enough to clarify one point and emphasise another.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do appreciate your comment , although not necessarily agreeing with them. I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe. It splits it into two very early time Periods . To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years. Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 . I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans . Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright ) Mike Edited July 19, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos
Area54 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . The universe is indifferent to your incredulity. 1
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