Producing a hierarchy of human life .

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The largest category would be bacteria, bacteria dominate everything, from raw numbers to simple volume bacteria are the dominant life forms on this planet. Everything else is an afterthought at best...

 

Yes I see what you mean , and they have found some bacteria in outer space.

 

But breaking up the overall environment of space, the universe, and everything into manageable chunks , my desire is to think in terms of ' who ' is contained in which ' chunk' , and can we arrange those ' chunks ' into some form of Heirachy.

 

For example I am thinking of the goldfish in my pond being ' there' in their world . And me being 'here ' in my world . See following two pictures taken 5 minutes ago .

 

Them fish in their realm

 

 

Me , human in my realm ( world )

 

 

Who is in the next realm ( universe beyond ) ? Of the growing Heirachy?

 

 

Mike

Edited June 23, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

Yes I see what you mean , and they have found some bacteria in outer space.

 

But breaking up the overall environment of space, the universe, and everything into manageable chunks , my desire is to think in terms of ' who ' is contained in which ' chunk' , and can we arrange those ' chunks ' into some form of Heirachy.

 

For example I am thinking of the goldfish in my pond being ' there' in their world . And me being 'here ' in my world . See following two pictures taken 5 minutes ago .

 

Them fish in their realm

 

image.jpeg

 

Me , human in my realm ( world )

 

image.jpeg

 

Who is in the next realm ( universe beyond ) ? Of the growing Heirachy?

 

image.jpeg

 

Mike

 

 

I disagree, I see no reason for a who or a next realm. The only think that possibly comes to mind is the simulation hypothesis...

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

Moved to the Lounge - this is not really a topic for this forum

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I disagree, I see no reason for a who or a next realm. The only think that possibly comes to mind is the simulation hypothesis...

 

What is the simulation hypothesis

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

What is the simulation hypothesis

 

Mike

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes I see what you mean , and they have found some bacteria in outer space.

But breaking up the overall environment of space, the universe, and everything into manageable chunks , my desire is to think in terms of ' who ' is contained in which ' chunk' , and can we arrange those ' chunks ' into some form of Heirachy.

For example I am thinking of the goldfish in my pond being ' there' in their world . And me being 'here ' in my world . See following two pictures taken 5 minutes ago .

Them fish in their realm

image.jpeg

Me , human in my realm ( world )

image.jpeg

Who is in the next realm ( universe beyond ) ? Of the growing Heirachy?

image.jpeg

Mike

I think to move forward , or rather upward we need to take the existing ' Heirachy ' of fish in pond looking

down a stage in the heirachy to the grubs on the floor of the pool. Or more relevant look upward to their master ( me ) above the water surface. To them , this appears to them to go on for ever , with unknown ' things ' trees , Sky , stars . .

 

Now it is our turn to look upwards , with a legacy of thinking previously discussed. Government .

 

Are /is there expectation for anything Heirachy like ( government like ) .

 

Well we certainly did not MAKE the universe we see , as we look upward . Whatever or whoever made the universe we see as we look upward , must have been made or made itself , in such a way as to act as a government to us as an upward Heirachy.

 

Is there evidence ?

 

Well at least 50 % of the population currently beleive there is a God of some form or another , so can we look to a God or a body of higher grade life than Humans . Most religions put forward various ideas for our origination , creation . Most of these religions speak of Angel like creatures , that acted as ' go betweens ' or ' message givers ' . Could this body of creatures including an overarching God , act as a Goverment of mankind . The next heirarcy up . This as mysterious as we are to the gold fish ?

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

I think to move forward , or rather upward we need to take the existing ' Heirachy ' of fish in pond looking

down a stage in the heirachy to the grubs on the floor of the pool. Or more relevant look upward to their master ( me ) above the water surface which appears to them to go on for ever , with unknown ' things ' trees , Sky , stars . .

 

Now it is our turn to look upwards , with a legacy of thinking previously discussed. Government .

 

Are /is there expectation for anything Heirachy like ( government like ) .

Well we certainly did not make the universe we see as we look upward . Whatever or whoever made the universe we see as we look upward , must have been made or made itself , in such a way as to act as a government to us as an upward Heirachy.

Is there evidence ,

 

Well at least 50 % of the population currently beleive there is a God of some form or another , so can we look to a God or a body of higher grade life than Humans . Most religions put forward various ideas for our origination . Most of these religions speak of Angels like creatures , that acted as ' go betweens ' or ' message givers ' . Could this body of creatures including an overarching God , act as a Goverment of mankind . The next heirarcy up . This as mysterious as we are to the gold fish ?

 

Mike

 

 

Just as soon as we can nibble on their toes I will consider it...

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Just as soon as we can nibble on their toes I will consider it...

 

.

I would have to search it out , but on the Christian direction , I recall a human once wrestled with an angel .

 

I think other religions speak of physical contact very occasionally with an Angel . I painted one a year ago .

 

... Can't find it ! But this is the image I copied it from !

 

 

An angel was supposed to be around at the start of current civilisation north east of Mosel , toward the Caspian Sea .

 

Today an Image of Mosel haunts our screens . The near END of Mosel .

 

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

I would have to search it out , but on the Christian direction , I recall a human once wrestled with an angel .

 

I think other religions speak of physical contact very occasionally with an Angel . I painted one a year ago .

 

Mike

 

 

Religions also speak of multiarmed elephant people...

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Religions also speak of multiarmed elephant people...

 

Have not seen that one ! Have you a picture ?

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

Have not seen that one ! Have you a picture ?

 

Mike

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Moontanman

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well , I can not vouch for your image , bit scary .

 

Some early Angels in the story from the Bible , speak of some coming to earth and producing giant Sons .

 

If nothing else , these two or three cited episodes , show mankind has peered into the night sky and envisioned ' a higher dimension '. HIGHER HEIRACHY.

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

Well , I can not vouch for your image , bit scary .

 

Some early Angels in the story from the Bible , speak of some coming to earth and producing giant Sons .

 

Mike

 

Can anyone vouch for any religious imagery? I cannot take any religious imagery or tenets or any other supernatural idea until some evidence it exists is given.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Can anyone vouch for any religious imagery? I cannot take any religious imagery or tenets or any other supernatural idea until some evidence it exists is given.

 

As I have just entered on another reference to this region of the world .

 

MOSUL existed 4000- 5000 Years ago as civilisation got a start in the Tigres and Euphrates region . The other day the tower in MOSUL got blown up

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/24/opinions/destruction-mosul-mosque-opinion-rizvi/index.html

 

Map of region civilisation got started 4000-6000 years ago .

 

SEE. MOSUL Then and now , central to the whole area .

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

As I have just entered on another reference to this region of the world .

 

MOSUL existed 4000- 5000 Years ago as civilisation got a start in the Tigres and Euphrates region . The other day the tower in MOSUL got blown up

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/24/opinions/destruction-mosul-mosque-opinion-rizvi/index.html

 

Map of region civilisation got started 4000-6000 years ago .

 

SEE. MOSUL Then and now , central to the whole area .

 

Mike

 

 

I don't understand what you are asserting, can you explain?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I don't understand what you are asserting, can you explain?

 

 

Despite ideas some people have of ape man or others found in caves , scattered about the world ,.......it has been shown by scholars that ACTUAL CIVILISED MAN grew up in the Tigres and Euphrates region see map .

The site of MOSUL existed then 4000- 6000 years ago . People started putting cuneiform writing on stone , to record transactions ,

 

Then civilisation spread all over the world, :- to China, to Africa , to India to Palestine , to the Mediterranean Sea to UK. TO ALL ACROSS THE GLOBE

 

The rest is history .

 

These early contacts with Angels occurred in the area highlighted by the Map of Mesopotamia given in previous post .

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

Despite ideas some people have of ape man or others found in caves , scattered about the world ,.......it has been shown by scholars that ACTUAL CIVILISED MAN grew up in the Tigres and Euphrates region see map .

The site of MOSUL existed then 4000- 6000 years ago . People started putting cuneiform writing on stone , to record transactions ,

 

Then civilisation spread all over the world, :- to China, to Africa , to India to Palestine , to the Mediterranean Sea to UK. TO ALL ACROSS THE GLOBE

 

The rest is history .

 

These early contacts with Angels occurred in the area highlighted by the Map of Mesopotamia given in previous post .

 

Mike

 

 

No, not everyone, those of us who understand deep time know the humans have been around for at least 150,000 years, possibly much longer. Ape men in caves.. really? Humans were building houses and huts and even villages much much earlier than 6 thousand years ago. Humans spread over the planet at least 50,000 years ago, caves were never a big part of human existence. Caves are very limited, stone age humans built megalithic structures and before that houses and villages out of would bones and hides.

 

But more importantly civilization has been traced back to 10,000 BCE some suggest it sprang up and fell much earlier but that is not much more than speculation at this point. Contact with Angels is something someone has claimed with no evidence what so ever. To suggest humans couldn't have developed civilization without help "from above" is insulting to our ancestors and totally unsupported...

 

Why would you suggest such a thing?

Edited June 24, 2017 by Moontanman

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No, not everyone, those of us who understand deep time know the humans have been around for at least 150,000 years, possibly much longer. But more importantly civilization has been traced back to 10,000 BCE some suggest it sprang up and fell much earlier but that is not much more than speculation at this point. Contact with Angels is something someone has claimed with no evidence what so ever. To suggest humans couldn't have developed civilization without help "from above" is insulting to our ancestors and totally unsupported...

 

Why would you suggest such a thing?

 

.

These 150,000 years and 10,000 years figures are rather picked out of the air , and do NOT relate to CIVILISATION , .

 

Evidence of tablets with cuneiform writing are accepted as ( within the context of CIVILISATION 4000 to 6000 years ago.

 

Pre civilisation and monkeys in caves is all very speculative .

 

Civilisations , produced villages , towns , and cities like MOSUL, pointed out on the map .

Also civilisation started to blossom , in the Tigres and Euphrates river basins (Iran Iraq ) , Egypt , Palestine , etc

 

The rest is History .

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

These 150,000 years and 10,000 years figures are rather picked out of the air , and do NOT relate to CIVILISATION , .

 

Evidence of tablets with cuneiform writing are accepted as ( within the context of CIVILISATION 4000 to 6000 years ago.

 

Pre civilisation and monkeys in caves is all very speculative .

 

Civilisations , produced villages , towns , and cities like MOSUL, pointed out on the map .

 

Mike

 

 

No, I am not talking about monkeys in caves, that is insulting to humans. Do you think The first north americans were monkeys living in caves? Just because their cities were made of wood and not stone doesn't mean they didn't exist. Humans with a reasonable amount of technology spread around the world at least 50,000 years ago. There is some evidence coming to light that humans might have been in NA way before 50,000 years ago. These people were not monkeys living in caves, they were just as human as you, they were travelers at times, at other times they built structures that did not last due not being made of stone and bricks. Are you going to say that only people who worked with stone and bricks were people and rest were monkeys living in caves?

 

There are stone structures found on the ocean bottom off the cost of India that date back far more than 6,000 years. Do you claim these guys were monkeys living in caves?

 

I am not willing to say these humans were not civilized, I see no reason to assume they didn't have writing methods that simply did not survive due to the materials they were recorded on and the rot of tropical climates.

 

The civilization of my own ancestors was wiped out before it could be documented by disease brought accidentally by the first europeans. Not all native americans were monkey people living in caves, In fact there was a diverse and elevated civilization here way before the spanish arrived and it wasn't brought here from the middle east.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No, I am not talking about monkeys in caves, that is insulting to humans. Do you think The first north americans were monkeys living in caves? Just because their cities were made of wood and not stone doesn't mean they didn't exist. Humans with a reasonable amount of technology spread around the world at least 50,000 years ago. There is some evidence coming to light that humans might have been in NA way before 50,000 years ago. These people were not monkeys living in caves, they were just as human as you, they were travelers at times, at other times they built structures that did not last due not being made of stone and bricks. Are you going to say that only people who worked with stone and bricks were people and rest were monkeys living in caves?

 

There are stone structures found on the ocean bottom off the cost of India that date back far more than 6,000 years. Do you claim these guys were monkeys living in caves?

 

I am not willing to say these humans were not civilized, I see no reason to assume they didn't have writing methods that simply did not survive due to the materials they were recorded on and the rot of tropical climates.

 

The civilization of my own ancestors was wiped out before it could be documented by disease brought accidentally by the first europeans. Not all native americans were monkey people living in caves, In fact there was a diverse and elevated civilization here way before the spanish arrived and it wasn't brought here from the middle east.

 

NO . That is the last thing I want to do , is cast aspersions on any group of people , including your own . Just because some groups of people were more nomadic than others , that is fine . If you knew me better you would realise I am more of a normad , motor cyclist . ( 10 different bikes up through my life . Now I am married with 4 daughters ( grown up ) , I had to become a settled house type person .

 

No my American history is not too good , and I apologise , no offence meant.

The cave , evidence I was really referring to was the odd scattering of bones in far flung caves and theories as to origin .

It just so happens that most tablet and trade evidence seems to emanate from Messapotania, east to China , south to Africa, East to Europe and the Mediterranean, , north to Mongolia and Russia . AMERICA you will need to fill me in on , as you clearly know more than me. I believe Alaska and Russia crossing figured somehow in all this ?

 

 

I still believe all this occurred 4000- 6000 years ago . Civilisation not wandering isolated bands of people .

 

Mike

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

NO . That is the last thing I want to do , is cast aspersions on any group of people , including your own . Just because some groups of people were more nomadic than others , that is fine . If you knew me better you would realise I am more of a normad , motor cyclist . ( 10 different bikes up through my life . Now I am married with 4 daughters ( grown up ) , I had to become a settled house type person .

 

No my American history is not too good , and I apologise , no offence meant.

The cave , evidence I was really referring to was the odd scattering of bones in far flung caves and theories as to origin .

It just so happens that most tablet and trade evidence seems to emanate from Messapotania, east to China , south to Africa, East to Europe and the Mediterranean, , north to Mongolia and Russia . AMERICA you will need to fill me in on , as you clearly know more than me. I believe Alaska and Russia crossing figured somehow in all this ?

 

 

I still believe all this occurred 4000- 6000 years ago . Civilisation not wandering isolated bands of people .

 

Mike

 

 

I was abiker most of my life, so I do connect with you there.

 

What bothers me is the idea that all civilization started in the middle east, this is demonstrably not true. The Aztecs, Mayans, and other western hemisphere civilizations arose independently from the middle east as did China and possibly India. Writing does indeed seem to be the key but strange symbols found all over the world that seem to be connected indicates there was some symbolism going on far back in the past. Drawings in cliffs and in caves in the western hemisphere date back way before the middle east and are a type of writing. The symbolism was more visual than symbolic but it occurred even before the asians migrated to the americas. In fact these first americans are thought to have come over in boats as part of the polynesian, australian aborigines who settled the pacific island chains well before 6,000 years ago. Some authors put this as far back as 75,000 years ago. They built boats, large canoes really, that they used to colonise the entire pacific basin when even the chinese were still wondering how to keep cave lions out.

 

These waves of peoples, at least I think, were probably connected by very thin trails as one civilization fell some of the people transferred their knowledge to other areas. I'm not sure how continuous this was but we have evidence that the chinese traded with australian aborigines before the middle east was "civilized" well let's say stacking rocks instead...

Edited June 24, 2017 by Moontanman

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I was abiker most of my life, so I do connect with you there.

 

What bothers me is the idea that all civilization started in the middle east, this is demonstrably not true. The Aztecs, Mayans, and other western hemisphere civilizations arose independently from the middle east as did China and possibly India. Writing does indeed seem to be the key but strange symbols found all over the world that seem to be connected indicates there was some symbolism going on far back in the past. Drawings in cliffs and in caves in the western hemisphere date back way before the middle east and are a type of writing. The symbolism was more visual than symbolic but it occurred even before the asians migrated to the americas. In fact these first americans are thought to have come over in boats as part of the polynesian, australian aborigines who settled the pacific island chains well before 6,000 years ago. Some authors put this as far back as 75,000 years ago. They built boats, large canoes really, that they used to colonise the entire pacific basin when even the chinese were still wondering how to keep cave lions out.

 

These waves of peoples, at least I think, were probably connected by very thin trails as one civilization fell some of the people transferred their knowledge to other areas. I'm not sure how continuous this was but we have evidence that the chinese traded with australian aborigines before the middle east was "civilized" well let's say stacking rocks instead...

 

Well , I have to say I am not an authority on all of this . I read , I watch tv documentaries . I read books .

I also have to sift mentally between what is conjecture , what is new findings , and what core information has been central for years. What I stated , some is very current . Eg China getting its start from the Middle East , within the 300 years BC , period . A lot is much more recent than we have been led to beleive .

 

If you took a civilisation like Romans , their evidence is all over the place and they are very recent like 100-200 BC to 300 AD . IF you go through a lot of civilisations you will find most of them are in this 4000 BC to 2000 AD . So my Mesopotamia ( Tigres and Euphrates ) to today is in this 6000 year span .

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

Well , I have to say I am not an authority on all of this . I read , I watch tv documentaries . I read books .

I also have to sift mentally between what is conjecture , what is new findings , and what core information has been central for years. What I stated , some is very current . Eg China getting its start from the Middle East , within the 300 years BC , period . A lot is much more recent than we have been led to beleive .

 

If you took a civilisation like Romans , their evidence is all over the place and they are very recent like 100-200 BC to 300 AD . IF you go through a lot of civilisations you will find most of them are in this 4000 BC to 2000 AD . So my Mesopotamia ( Tigres and Euphrates ) to today is in this 6000 year span .

 

Mike

 

It would seem there is a difference of opinion here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/21/indigenous-australians-most-ancient-civilisation-on-earth-dna-study-confirms

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

It would seem there is a difference of opinion here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/21/indigenous-australians-most-ancient-civilisation-on-earth-dna-study-confirms

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

Yes you may have noticed in reading through the Wikipedia discussion that when it got down to CIVILISATION THEY ALL SEEMED TO BE IN THE FEW THOUSAND YEARS RANGE .

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/0276f01aae98bd3951caf44cb42ccba5.png

 

Mike

[Moontanman]

Yes you may have noticed in reading through the Wikipedia discussion that when it got down to CIVILISATION THEY ALL SEEMED TO BE IN THE FEW THOUSAND YEARS RANGE .

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/0276f01aae98bd3951caf44cb42ccba5.png

 

Mike

 

 

Well wikipedia isn't exactly gospel, but it is a good starting point, my point would be that there seems to be some disagreement on what makes a civilization. You seem to think it involves writing, some would seem to say it's more of a group of people who have a working society. I am a bit torn between them. Neither would seem to be 100% on point.