Producing a hierarchy of human life .

[Manticore]

7 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

I still say the bulk of our history , came from Mediterranian and middle eastern roots. And I do not think I am alone in this . However , I do stand to be corrected

Except that many now believe the Arabs got their civilisation from the Zimbabwean Empire.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well someone is stopping me debating in a Lounge environment ( by plastering me with ( -1) s. So I will have to stop , which is a shame as my points have been hard won over the years . And I enjoy the debate ! 

So unless whoever is determined to shut me up by using (-1) s as a means of winning an argument  STOPS and returns with ( +1's) . I have no further recourse but to finish the discussion . Why cannot people win by discussion rather than by destruction . ( particularly in a Lounge environment ) 

Of course that is why the world has got into its present state . ( kick ass ) , rather than have an intellectual debate , and enjoy the cut and thrust of words and argument . 

Thanks for the discussion so far . , 

 

mike 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Manticore]

Oh! I am a spoilt child. Someone gave me a couple of -1s so I am going home to sulk.

[Area54]

26 minutes ago, Manticore said:

Oh! I am a spoilt child. Someone gave me a couple of -1s so I am going home to sulk.

I reserve -1's for trolling, extreme bigotry, persistent off-topic posts and the like. I see nothing in Mike's posts that merit a -1. He is wrong, but that can only be demonstrated to him by a well honed counter argument and open discussion, not by attacking his integrity.

I am tempted to mock your own comments. "Oh! I am a spoilt child. Someone won't accept my arguments so I am going to give them a couple of anonymous -1s. That will show them."

You are fully entitled, as I understand the rules of the forum, to give anyone a -1 for reasons you think appropriate. You are fully entitled to refrain from such action yourself, but to speak in support of those who do downvote. It is my opinion that in this case your actions are unwarranted and counterproductive.

@Mike, you are aware, I think, that I believe you to be seriously misguided, misled and off the rails. But if you leave the discussion I shall never be able to persuade you of that fact. No downvotes have come from me.

[Manticore]

I didn't give him the -1s - I only ever give them for about the same reasons you do. I even get some occasionally, but I don't let it bother me.

[Area54]

Roger that Manticore.

Mike, you said you had been plastered by -1s. I went through the entire thread and found only 2, for a couple of your most recent posts. Two downvotes is not equivalent to being plastered by them. I felt a momentary urge to give you a -1 for being deceitful, but immediately suppressed it, since I think you were just being imprecise. I admire your consistency in that regard. The -1s are not there anymore. Now can we please get on with it. I do make four requests.

1. Please try to genuinely respond to questions asked or arguments made by other participants. That means really reading what they have said and not shooting from the hip, or reading from your agenda.

2. Stop repeating the same tired old arguments in the same disjointed way.

3. Focus.

4. If there is something you could do about your abominable spelling/typing it would be appreciated.

[Klaynos]

!

Moderator Note

Mike, of the last 2 posts of yours that I can find that had negative reputation points these were given by different users. Not one with a vendetta. I would assume these have been given to you as your are resistant to other people's evidence and have provided none in their view. 

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

2 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

Mike, you said you had been plastered by -1s. I went through the entire thread and found only 2, for a couple of your most recent posts. Two downvotes is not equivalent to being plastered by them. I felt a momentary urge to give you a -1 for being deceitful, but immediately suppressed it, since I think you were just being imprecise. I admire your consistency in that regard. The -1s are not there anymore. Now can we please get on with it. I do make four requests.

1. Please try to genuinely respond to questions asked or arguments made by other participants. That means really reading what they have said and not shooting from the hip, or reading from your agenda.

2. Stop repeating the same tired old arguments in the same disjointed way.

3. Focus.

4. If there is something you could do about your abominable spelling/typing it would be appreciated.

I appreciate all that you have said . thank you . 

I will rejoin the discussion . 

There is a problem with the subject of this discussion as:- 

Many of the things that have taken place in the universe, or supposedly have taken place , in the past , to do with the current World we see about us . And how it got to where we are now ! Have a problem . :-

As neither , science is fully able to explain how everything got here , nor is the explanation which incorporates creatures of various sorts including a God , satisfactory to many people and many scientists particularly , as it attempts to bypass the rules of science , like prediction, evidence , formulae , maths etc . 

So I acknowledge the problem for both camps .

A) Those that are ardent scientists almost abandon the opposite camp , in a sweeping ,   " well there is no evidence, no prediction , no science .... Phhaa!  Waste of space ! " 

B) Those that come from a ( believing in the supernatural God, Angels etc , Creation ) for some reason of upbringing, experience, need whatever . Say to themselves ,  " heathens, heartless, poor sods they have nothing to look forward to when they die , anyway miracles are possible with our God , that scientists have no recourse to anything a bit beyond understanding or supernatural . " 

So it's easy to see the difficulty. However someone like me has a foot in both camps . Being utterly intreagued with both sides :-

A)   Science and  B) God ( with others ) 

For some reason or other I am able to handle them both together . 

To me most of pedestrian science is a tool used by both sides . It's where there is a conflict I choose the God side ( maybe I am hedging my bets , but it's not for that reason . ) 

Why cannot GOD. And the SONS of GOD  , and ANGELS of GOD  not be SUPER SCIENTISTS  with an advanced understanding that we just do not understand or even know about ? 

 

MIKE 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

8 hours ago, Area54 said:

Neither Moontanman, nor myself have suggested Chinese civilisation goes back 250,000 years. Moontanman made two clear statements that you have misread.

Statement 1: Homo sapiens has been in existence for 250,000 years.

Statement 2: Chinese civilisation was advanced at the time the Jews were following a nomadic existence.

Are these statements accurate? I might make a minor quibble with each of them.

Re Statement 1 - My understanding was that the first "true humans" appeared around 180,000 years ago. However that understanding requires two caveats. Firstly, Moontanman may have more up to date information than I. (He hints at this by referring to "modern thought" on the issue.) Secondly, classification of modern humans, or Homo sapiens is artificial. It is a matter of definition. The key point Moontanman makes is that this supposed God let humanity suffer for many tens of thousands of years before taking an interst in an obscure group of nomads (at which point he gave a thumbs up to circumcision and a thumbs down to prawn cocktails).

Re Statement 2 - Moontanman's post could be interepreted to mean that China was the first civilisation. I understand that Chinese civilisation developed independently of those in the Middle East, the so called Fertile Crescent, but a little later. However, I think Moontanman was focusing on the Jews, at the time they were evolving their religion and were not a settled people, with writing and scholars and industry and burgeoning economies. (Moontanman, have I read you correctly?) Again, he is questioning the logic that God should decide to make his appearance to a bunch of unwashed, uneducated, goat herders,rather than a sophisticated and open minded people. (I never appreciate the "God works in mysterious ways" response.)

The bulk of "our" history may come from the Mediterranean, because "we" are a European people and chance dictated that "we" should, for the present, come to dominate the culture of the globe. However, to deny the richness of cultures and civilisations and languages and histories and literatures and science that has developed or been practiced elsewhere is to take a disturbingly egocentric viewpoint. I know you mean well Mike, but it is that sort of thinking that leads to racial prejudice, bigotry and the gas chambers.

You have an incredibly narrow minded approach to history. You have a belief that has spawned an agenda. You close your eyes to any facts that do not support that agenda, or twist them in a way that destroys their meaning. I sincerely wish you would stop it.

Nailed it! 

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

I appreciate all that you have said . thank you . 

I will rejoin the discussion . 

There is a problem with the subject of this discussion as:- 

Many of the things that have taken place in the universe, or supposedly have taken place , in the past , to do with the current World we see about us . And how it got to where we are now ! Have a problem . :-

As neither , science is fully able to explain how everything got here , nor is the explanation which incorporates creatures of various sorts including a God , satisfactory to many people and many scientists particularly , as it attempts to bypass the rules of science , like prediction, evidence , formulae , maths etc . 

So I acknowledge the problem for both camps .

A) Those that are ardent scientists almost abandon the opposite camp , in a sweeping ,   " well there is no evidence, no prediction , no science .... Phhaa!  Waste of space ! " 

B) Those that come from a ( believing in the supernatural God, Angels etc , Creation ) for some reason of upbringing, experience, need whatever . Say to themselves ,  " heathens, heartless, poor sods they have nothing to look forward to when they die , anyway miracles are possible with our God , that scientists have no recourse to anything a bit beyond understanding or supernatural . " 

Think for a moment Mike, science admits there things it cannot at this time answer. Religion claims to have the answer to everything while knowing nothing. 

3 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

So it's easy to see the difficulty. However someone like me has a foot in both camps . Being utterly intreagued with both sides :-

A)   Science and  B) God ( with others ) 

For some reason or other I am able to handle them both together . 

To me most of pedestrian science is a tool used by both sides . It's where there is a conflict I choose the God side ( maybe I am hedging my bets , but it's not for that reason . ) 

Why cannot GOD. And the SONS of GOD  , and ANGELS of GOD  not be SUPER SCIENTISTS  with an advanced understanding that we just do not understand or even know about ? 

 

MIKE 

No one says that God and the angels of God cannot be alien super scientists. Science simply says at this time there is no evidence to support that assertion. 

Religion and the supernatural have never contributed any knowledge of the unknown to mankind.  Religion and the supernatural have never found cure for a disease, in fact they have never even suggested a disease had any causes except demons. 

Religion and the supernatural have never made it possible for one man to feed many through agriculture, animal husbandry, fishing or any other means.  

Religion and the supernatural have never provided clean water or sanitation. In fact it can be said that religion has done the opposite. 

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided a reason not to go to war and kill your neighbor, in fact most if not all religions have indeed contributed to war and allied themselves with fascists.

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided us with, tools or the methodology to use  those tools to build houses, boats, cities, or to smelt metals.

In fact our entire civilization in based in science and the scientific method. Take away science and the fruits it has provided and people start to die immediately. millions within days, billions with in months. Take away religion? Nothing would happen other than humans might want to stop teaching religion as science... 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

On 15 August 2017 at 0:30 AM, Moontanman said:

Think for a moment Mike, science admits there things it cannot at this time answer. Religion claims to have the answer to everything while knowing nothing. 

No one says that God and the angels of God cannot be alien super scientists. Science simply says at this time there is no evidence to support that assertion. 

Religion and the supernatural have never contributed any knowledge of the unknown to mankind.  Religion and the supernatural have never found cure for a disease, in fact they have never even suggested a disease had any causes except demons. 

Religion and the supernatural have never made it possible for one man to feed many through agriculture, animal husbandry, fishing or any other means.  

Religion and the supernatural have never provided clean water or sanitation. In fact it can be said that religion has done the opposite. 

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided a reason not to go to war and kill your neighbor, in fact most if not all religions have indeed contributed to war and allied themselves with fascists.

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided us with, tools or the methodology to use  those tools to build houses, boats, cities, or to smelt metals.

In fact our entire civilization in based in science and the scientific method. Take away science and the fruits it has provided and people start to die immediately. millions within days, billions with in months. Take away religion? Nothing would happen other than humans might want to stop teaching religion as science... 

Hi Moontainman, 

I notice a slight air of Anti Religion feelings, in your last post . Which I can understand . I grew up in the 40's, 50's, and 60's where there was this great awakening to things that seemed to have gone terribly wrong, particularly in the turn of the First World War and then into the Second World War.  Religion in the main did not seem to advise people in a peaceful direction. 

Along came people like Bob Dylan and many others , with

" come senitors and congress men , mothers and fathers ,throughout the land " " don't criticise what you don't understand " ......stand aside ...  " the times they are a changing " 

I was well and truely swept along with all this , my parents were really alarmed. A career I had started in missile engineering , I gave up , and college. Many others , thousands , upon thousands became drop outs, streakers, hippies, and the like . The times definitely did change. Before I went to London and University, when  I was 19 years old the Town of Totnes in Devon , was an ordinary Devon Town . Now 55 years later , today it sells every sort of New Age potion, crystals , books on herbal remedies and momentos for the great age of alternatives. Girls strum Guitars in the streets , flowers are sprinkled , they even roll Pancakes down the High Street every Tuesday . It's amazing . 

Having given up electronics university and  Missiles electronics testing  , In midlife  my 40's/ 50's ( late 1970'sI re-established my career in the nuclear fallout shelter business , then into manufacture of computer interconnection , which led to the Internet. I went back to University ( Years 2000 .) ,did an electronics Degree in Sattelite communication , then went teaching science . 

Now , retired , I try to think about all this , occasionally think big thoughts , and paint all manner of things on canvas . 

I simpathise with your comment about religious involvement in wartime , I just live in hope there will be a time of Peace sometime on Earth , that we can ALL be proud of . I now ,do think this will be by intervention somehow from the HIERACHY above the Human level . As mankind can't seem to 'crack it ' , on his own ! 

Mike 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Moontanman]

10 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Hi Moontainman, 

I notice a slight air of Anti Religion feelings, in your last post .

Where do you park your squad car Mike? I am indeed anti religious as well as a sceptic, an Apistevist, and an Atheist. 

I of course did not start out that way but nothing cures religion quite like actually thinking for yourself while reading the Bible... The whole religion makes war thing isn't really true, it should read that religion is easily used to convince believers to do a great many evil things if you con them into thinking god wants it done.

What really burned my ass was religion being used to milk money from those least able to afford it. While the preachers and pastors, routinely build mega mansions, one for each day of the week, airplanes, helicopters, diamond mines, and full scale models of noah's ark.

Let's not forget child molesters, that crime isn't confined to catholic priests, it's quite rampant in southern baptists and the rest as well.

But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    

Just now, Moontanman said:

Where do you park your squad car Mike? I am indeed anti religious as well as a sceptic, an Apistevist, and an Atheist. 

I of course did not start out that way but nothing cures religion quite like actually thinking for yourself while reading the Bible... The whole religion makes war thing isn't really true, it should read that religion is easily used to convince believers to do a great many evil things if you con them into thinking god wants it done.

What really burned my ass was religion being used to milk money from those least able to afford it. While the preachers and pastors, routinely build mega mansions, one for each day of the week, airplanes, helicopters, diamond mines, and full scale models of noah's ark.

Let's not forget child molesters, that crime isn't confined to catholic priests, it's quite rampant in southern baptists and the rest as well.

But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    

BTW, tell me more about the fallout shelters, it would seem we are going to need one in not too distant future... 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 

 

BTW, tell me more about the fallout shelters, it would seem we are going to need one in not too distant future... 

Well this bit about fall out shelters and electricity for them goes , back to the 1970's / 1980's .........

having come through, the Cuba missile crisis , people were still on edge . Kennedy had been shot , many people across the world still feared things could flare up, and if that happened , " all hell would break loose and we would be drawn relentlessly into a nuclear holocaust " not dissimilar to people's fears today with nuclear threats. I think our thoughts then were more unrestrained . ( doomsday scenario ) . Rich people around the world started to build ' fall out shelters ' I was approached by a local company who supplied survival equipment world wide to come up with a product for fall out shelters. 

When the bomb goes up the electric goes off . In a buried fall out shelter , that would plunge you into absolute darkness. Could I design and build a pedal charger . Which I did , and a number were sent around the world . The panic went off and life went on . People still thought a catastrophe was still possible but not to worry , let's just live on . 

I did my sums and realised , even if there was a haulocaust, most people would survive the blast, immediate fireball , and a few other bits . The problem comes when the fall out continues to rain down . BUT if you can keep inside with cleaned air for a month , you would survive . So I designed a small ' in your house ' geodesic dome ' composed of a number of marine ply triangles ( geodesic in dimensions , ) that could be pulled out from under the stairs in the event of a bomb . You would have time to assemble it , as it's the fallout that rains down  is the killer ( unless you are in the city zone , then you have had it anyway ) . Survive with filtered air for about a month . You should be alright . 

If I can find them I can dig out some pictures . 

That all went dead and quiet for about 30 years , until a few days ago ! 

Mike 

Ps.

Your comment :-

" But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    "

i will cover this , next post ! 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

On 16 August 2017 at 10:03 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Your comment :-

" But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    "

i will cover this , next post ! 

When I first mentioned HIERACHY in this thread , I was thinking only in terms of the relationship I had with my Goldfish . I was not strictly thinking in terms of a Religious  HIERACHY .. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy  

I have since looked up the Dictionary definition and it has often been used in a religious connection .  I was hoping to glean some interesting information about our Human standing in the greater scheme of things , but was trying to gain that from a MIDDLE UP approach . Namely let's start with this HUMAN -FISH relationship and see what happens as we go up . 

For whatever reason this seems to have got onto a religious tack . Probably my fault for mentioning ANGELS. 

{ PERHAPS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 100 MILLION  of them out there somewhere , and a GOD , and some SONS of God, makes for an interesting investigation into   HIERACHY  }. 

As explained previously I personally do not have a division between religious and non religious ( sectarian ) , everything to me is all from top to bottom one great Universe . Whatever is there is there , from top to bottom there is nothing we can do about that , it is what it is , and that is that . 

True , I was hoping to glean some feeling of understanding , as to what happens as we go up , and I was hoping , what was going on between me and the fish , might just give me that insite. It's now got into War , which is all we need just at this moment . However press on ! 

I have suffered death ( of a fish ) in the midst of all this talk, which I am only just getting over . Today Barcelona is trying to get over , many many deaths . 

" Who rules who " ?  seems to be the issue . Perhaps this is the lot of the Universe ? 

Maybe there is a way to rule without war ? I rule my fish , and I am not at war with them .

It's ' MAN  ruling MAN ' ..... that causes the problem . 

We need to find a way to unscramble that bit of the HIERACHY SOMEHOW. . ? 

Peacefully ?  PERHAPS  we should all study our goldfish environment MORE !

Then Peacefully , look for the model human upward ? See if we can get any sense out of that ? 

You see I think our bad history in this matter is clouding the solution . If we can only see through all this past JUNK , maybe we can see a way forward ? 

 

Mike 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What has come out of this topic of HIERACHY  for me , is quite extraordinary . 

Firstly God exists at the top of this HIERACHY , it appears to originate from the Bottom up. Namely by combining the latest theory for the origin of the Material Universe, we are put in the position , if God were to originate the universe , relative to our size , it was very, very small. The size of a Higgs particle , some millions upon millions smaller than an atom . And that is all there was . By inflation it grew , and I presume GOD GREW WITHIT , ( keeping abreast of the universe he was creating ) . At an inflationary way , it grew , to a bit smaller than a marble. This then continued to grow , under the auspices of God , to the Universe we are aware of today. So now God is universe wide in size with a thinking system to match . 

His ,first  advanced life to create ( we are told ) , were Sons of God ( a number ) but not specified, ( they got up to mischief before the flood ) then followed the creation of Angels , ( some 100, 000,000 ) . Along side all this the material universe was developing , I suppose in much the way science has documented it . Then , maybe the first Man was made "in our image " ( presumably in some way ' like  the angles and sons of God. ) . All this latter human life after the development of animals including ' Fish...

So in an outline form we can see the Human HIERACHY develops across the Universe . That is of course , if you wish to include  all I have said here . If not you are left with this picture of a rather cold heartless universe . 

Mike 

 

[Area54]

26 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

So in an outline form we can see the Human HIERACHY develops across the Universe . That is of course , if you wish to include  all I have said here . If not you are left with this picture of a rather cold heartless universe .

Alterntaively you can reject your unsubstantiated concept of hierarchy, a product - it seems - of wishful thinking, and instead embrace a universe where the warmth and the heart are provided by humans and such other intelligent entities as may exist.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

5 hours ago, Area54 said:

Alterntaively you can reject your unsubstantiated concept of hierarchy, a product - it seems - of wishful thinking, and instead embrace a universe where the warmth and the heart are provided by humans and such other intelligent entities as may exist.

 

I am not sure it is wise to catagorise my comments of possible conditions in the strata of " above human life forms " , as UNSUBSTANTIATED. That would be unnessisarily dismissive of things unseen and not of the normal run of things. And then replace them with ' normal and more familiar conditions ' purely because they are easier to prove! 

True , credibility needs to come from a more ' roundabout ' route, but I believe that is worth the trouble . 

Point 1. Being . The universe is full to bursting with Cause and Effect . Eg One thing causes another thing to happen. So obvious. 

Yet , here we have a vast, complicated , energetic., productive universe. Yet we as humans have been responsible for so, so little of it. Yet here we are asking " Where has all this come about , and what actually produced it . My explanation is 

A designer, manufacturer/ manufacturing system beyond anything we can barely comprehend ( just perhaps ). Yet we can't imagine the detail, or system easily . 

That is just one example of my " a more ' roundabout ' route " 

mike 

 

 

[Klaynos]

You're right. It's not wise to call your idea unsubstantiated. It's wise to call it completely and utterly unsubstantiated. 9 pages of circles and no evidence. My first post on the first page still stands. 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

1 hour ago, Klaynos said:

You're right. It's not wise to call your idea unsubstantiated. It's wise to call it completely and utterly unsubstantiated. 9 pages of circles and no evidence. My first post on the first page still stands. 

Yes , but , it's bound to be like that . 

You can't expect to pick up , from under a rock , a two ton octopus looking thing , and plonk it on the table , and say , there you go , I just caught God , under a rock , here he is , let's ask a few questions !

the best you are going to get is descriptions found in sacred text, written or spoken . By someone much higher up the HIERACHY  , than any of us , I would think . What is more likely is knowledge passed down over the century's, that purports to shed some light on this missing bit of the HIERACHY , between man and God . 

Thats why I have been consecrating on the me-human  to goldfish relationship , as that I would have thought demonstrates on a much reduced scale , the interaction between God and Man . 

Thats what I have been saying about , I  clearly caring much more and in detail for my Goldfish than they care for me . 

Clearly that is repeated on a much higher part of the ( God - Human ) HIERACHY 

 Most people are giving little care for God , but clearly God is giving far greater care for us . ( or we would all be dead by now ) . That is just one minutia of the story , but it should give a lead in to far more issues. 

Mike 

[Moontanman]

28 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Yes , but , it's bound to be like that . 

You can't expect to pick up , from under a rock , a two ton octopus looking thing , and plonk it on the table , and say , there you go , I just caught God , under a rock , here he is , let's ask a few questions !

the best you are going to get is descriptions found in sacred text, written or spoken . By someone much higher up the HIERACHY  , than any of us , I would think . What is more likely is knowledge passed down over the century's, that purports to shed some light on this missing bit of the HIERACHY , between man and God . 

Thats why I have been consecrating on the me-human  to goldfish relationship , as that I would have thought demonstrates on a much reduced scale , the interaction between God and Man . 

Thats what I have been saying about , I  clearly caring much more and in detail for my Goldfish than they care for me . 

Clearly that is repeated on a much higher part of the ( God - Human ) HIERACHY 

 Most people are giving little care for God , but clearly God is giving far greater care for us . ( or we would all be dead by now ) . That is just one minutia of the story , but it should give a lead in to far more issues. 

Mike 

Prove god and we'll talk about god, simply asserting it is meaningless. As the late great Christopher Hitchens said "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...."   

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Prove god and we'll talk about god, simply asserting it is meaningless. As the late great Christopher Hitchens said "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...."   

Perhaps one of an immediate proofs is the first line of your SINATURE STRIP .

namely . :- 

.        " LIFE IS THE POETRY OF THE UNIVERSE " . .

If the Universe was all just matter , dust , and  rock , , we might be struggling to say there is a God . Like going to some of the moons and planets , just minerals , rocks , dust , no atmosphere. .. 

But under our noses is LIFE , PLANTS , ANIMALS ,   Here on Earth its crawling with Life ...

Surely that is proof of a GOD .?

 At least enough for your comment  "  Prove god and we'll talk about god " 

 

mike 

 

[Manticore]

36 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

If the Universe was all just matter , dust , and  rock , , we might be struggling to say there is a God .

You are struggling (extremely unconvincingly) to say there is a God .

[Area54]

14 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

I am not sure it is wise to catagorise my comments of possible conditions in the strata of " above human life forms " , as UNSUBSTANTIATED. That would be unnessisarily dismissive of things unseen and not of the normal run of things. And then replace them with ' normal and more familiar conditions ' purely because they are easier to prove! 

True , credibility needs to come from a more ' roundabout ' route, but I believe that is worth the trouble . 

Point 1. Being . The universe is full to bursting with Cause and Effect . Eg One thing causes another thing to happen. So obvious. 

Yet , here we have a vast, complicated , energetic., productive universe. Yet we as humans have been responsible for so, so little of it. Yet here we are asking " Where has all this come about , and what actually produced it . My explanation is 

A designer, manufacturer/ manufacturing system beyond anything we can barely comprehend ( just perhaps ). Yet we can't imagine the detail, or system easily . 

That is just one example of my " a more ' roundabout ' route " 

mike

"things unseen and not of the normal run of things" is a pretty fair definition of unsubstantiated. I am not being unecessarily dismissive of your claim. It is necessary for me to dismiss those claims precisely because they are offered without justification, without meaningful evidence, without reasoned argument. They are unsubstantiated.

Now, you are welcome to try to substantiate them, but thus far all of your efforts to do so have consisted of an argument that amounts to "I believe it is true because I believe it is true".

Let's look at your latest attempt. (By the way, why make a note of Point 1, then fail to provide, or identify subsequent points by number? I mention this not as a true aside, but because I believe that it is symptomatic of your demonstrably wooly thinking.)

You assert that the universe is "full to bursting with cause and effect". Agreed. I trust you will agree, though I don't think it impacts your argument, that some events appear to occur without cause. For example the fission of a radioactive particle at a specific point in time, rather than at some other point in time.

The universe is large, possibly infinite. Agreed.

It is arguably complicated, though I could write a term paper that argued it is immensely simple, governed by four fundamental forces, a smattering of fundamental particles and a small selection of universal constants. The emergent properties that appear complex are merely the application of cause and effect to that recipe.

Humans have thus far been responsible for practically none of it. Agreed.

You then come up with an explanation. An explanation that is unsubstantiated. An explanation that you pluck out of the air. An explanation that is merely one of several explanations one might produce. An explanation selected simply because you "like it", because it seems to you to make sense. Yet it remains an explanation tha tis unsubstantiated.

Your so called roundabout route is not a route at all. In it you jump across an unbridgable chasm, based entirely upon belief and faith and imagination. Sterling qualities I am sure, but when used in this way they represent the worst kind of deceit. Self deceit.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

3 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

You assert that the universe is "full to bursting with cause and effect".

The universe is large, possibly infinite. Agreed.

It is arguably complicated, though I could write a term paper that argued it is immensely simple, governed by four fundamental forces, a smattering of fundamental particles .......

One of the philosophers like Decart or Lock, or another posited , that " if the universe was totally predictable , it would not work ! "

It needs the freedom of movement , variability  , chance , .

True there are laws bound up in particles , fields , and all manner of scientific principles , that modern science has uncovered. Yet use them to describe , these fish of mine moving about , current science , would be hard pressed to put this picture of swimming fish , in any meaningful way . Use science to show that they are alive, thinking , deciding, eating , observing , concluding , I think it would struggle. 

Move on the human EXISTANCE , sentience, awareness, appreciation, consciousness, and science would struggle to use its current systems to handle ,

Life , EXISTANCE, consciousness, awareness , appreciation, affection  and a pelethera of other living experiences. 

It is this latter experience , that is explained outside of science as we know it ! And yet that is the area of discussion proposed here , in this thread . 

You might be tempted to say , " well why debate it here in a Science Forum " 

My answer would be " because science NEEDS it in order to make major inroads into human understanding and the future of humanity. 

 

Mike 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Area54]

2 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

True there are laws bound up in particles , fields , and all manner of scientific principles , that modern science has uncovered. Yet use them to describe , these fish of mine moving about , current science , would be hard pressed to put this picture of swimming fish , in any meaningful way . Use science to show that they are alive, thinking , deciding, eating , observing , concluding , I think it would struggle.

Bollocks. Complete and utter nonsense. Bilge. Profound and deeply offensive ignorance.

 

Anatomy can define the detailed structure of your fish and their component organs and systems.

Zoology can detail the function of each of these organs and systems.

Embryology can review the development of these organs and systems from a zygote to an adult fish.

Neurology can provide information on the nature of their nervous system.

Evolutionary biology can trace their lineage back a billion years.

Ethology can describe and explain their behaviour.

Cytology can explain the workings of individual cells.

Biochemistry can detail their metabolism.

Genetics can illuminate how all of these are controlled.

Ecology can describe how they fit into and influence their environment.

 

In short Mike, science knows a great deal more about your fish than you will ever know, as long as you choose fairy stories over sound, multiply validated observations and their resultant hypotheses and theories.