GOP "Healthcare" Bill

[Phi for All]

There is no mandate for Federal Health Care. Let the States take care of it. Or the individual.

 

Mandates are needed when the states and the individuals are either powerless to affect change, or need extra incentive to adopt meaningful healthcare behavior, such as opting for cranial rectal inversion reversal.

 

Do you call yourself a capitalist? You're a pathetic one if you think it's OK to pay what Americans pay for private health insurance. In my capitalist dealings, I prefer not to be ripped off.

[EdEarl]

 

Actually, I'm leaning more towards why the hell are Americans so hung up on having the freedom to choose from a myriad of products, services, and programs, yet accept a mere two choices for one of the most important aspects of their lives? I say now is the right time for a third party. The Democrats are just serving a more humane, reasonable group of billionaires, but the problems we have now mostly stem from a lack of support for the bulk of those who've committed to civilized living. So much wrong could be righted with so little effort, but not until the influence of wealth over our governing process is better regulated.

There's a move to remake the Democratic party, called Justice Democrats. They considered making a "progressive" party, but decided it would be better to eliminate the centrists democrats that are beholding to corporate money.

[HB of CJ]

Phi for All: I do believe I never called myself a Capitalist. Perhaps you are mistaken. Many doable family financial plans exist to address individual health care costs. It is called a savings program. A novel idea today. Easy to eliminate any and all government interference. It gives the individual the freedom of choice. That plus our USA Constitution specifically delegates such to the States or the Individual.

 

Our extended nuclear family may or may not have such a savings program. Perhaps a conservatively oriented diversified investment program geared to long term stability. Housing. Education. Retirement. Even recreational vacations. Medical. Also it is a sense of family honor and responsibility. We try to negotiate medical costs beforehand. Payment in full with a deep cash discount. Or ... a payment schedule paid in full.

 

Personal note. I have a cracked lower molar. Hurts sometimes. No ice water for me! I have been deferring that required Crown so my grandkids can go to summer adventure boot camp. Eventually I will pull out the bucks to fix my tooth. Cheaper for us to just set money aside for years then occasionally spend it on necessary medical fixes. My friend dentist accepts cash. Novel in itself. We will negotiate a price.

 

Socialist government mandated medical insurance has already been tried. Soviet Union. We pretty much know how that worked out. Medical insurance is something the government needs not to become involved in. Keep it in the private corporate "capitalist" sector. Give the individual the freedom of choice. But ... this also requires financial discipline: sometime also novel to the socialist commie sheeple or snow flakes?

 

Dunno fur sures. Respectfully. Cherrie Pie is my favourite!

[Delta1212]

Phi for All: I do believe I never called myself a Capitalist. Perhaps you are mistaken. Many doable family financial plans exist to address individual health care costs. It is called a savings program. A novel idea today. Easy to eliminate any and all government interference. It gives the individual the freedom of choice. That plus our USA Constitution specifically delegates such to the States or the Individual.

 

Our extended nuclear family may or may not have such a savings program. Perhaps a conservatively oriented diversified investment program geared to long term stability. Housing. Education. Retirement. Even recreational vacations. Medical. Also it is a sense of family honor and responsibility. We try to negotiate medical costs beforehand. Payment in full with a deep cash discount. Or ... a payment schedule paid in full.

 

Personal note. I have a cracked lower molar. Hurts sometimes. No ice water for me! I have been deferring that required Crown so my grandkids can go to summer adventure boot camp. Eventually I will pull out the bucks to fix my tooth. Cheaper for us to just set money aside for years then occasionally spend it on necessary medical fixes. My friend dentist accepts cash. Novel in itself. We will negotiate a price.

 

Socialist government mandated medical insurance has already been tried. Soviet Union. We pretty much know how that worked out. Medical insurance is something the government needs not to become involved in. Keep it in the private corporate "capitalist" sector. Give the individual the freedom of choice. But ... this also requires financial discipline: sometime also novel to the socialist commie sheeple or snow flakes?

 

Dunno fur sures. Respectfully. Cherrie Pie is my favourite!

How did it work out in every country in Europe?

[swansont]

Here we go again. USA Constitutional law. There is no mandate for Federal Health Care. Let the States take care of it. Or the individual.

There's no mandate for lots of things the government does. This is not an actual issue.

 

Personal note. I have a cracked lower molar. Hurts sometimes. No ice water for me! I have been deferring that required Crown so my grandkids can go to summer adventure boot camp. Eventually I will pull out the bucks to fix my tooth. Cheaper for us to just set money aside for years then occasionally spend it on necessary medical fixes. My friend dentist accepts cash. Novel in itself. We will negotiate a price.

 

How willing will you be to negotiate a price if you get into a car crash? Are you going to shop for emergency care while you bleed out?

Many doable family financial plans exist to address individual health care costs. It is called a savings program. A novel idea today. Easy to eliminate any and all government interference. It gives the individual the freedom of choice.

What if you don't make enough to have appreciable savings?

[Phi for All]

Socialist government mandated medical insurance has already been tried. Soviet Union. We pretty much know how that worked out. Medical insurance is something the government needs not to become involved in. Keep it in the private corporate "capitalist" sector. Give the individual the freedom of choice. But ... this also requires financial discipline: sometime also novel to the socialist commie sheeple or snow flakes?

 

We had a great concept going, this coming together of various nationalities to stand with each other against tyranny and the oppression of those with heavy advantage in wealth, power, and ownership. We took the immigrants from lots of places and we made a united society.

 

Then people like you started ignoring the fact that any civilization MUST take steps to avoid the inevitable disease that comes from high density human habitation. It's all OK for you though, because you were born into advantage others didn't have. You're acting JUST like the oppressors we fought so hard against. You thumb your nose at those who can't afford what you can, and blame them for all the troubles your uncaring, messed up, fear-mongering GOP batshit craziness has foisted upon this society over your lifetime. The focus on criminals instead of reasons for crime, the idiotic pissing all over the rights of women and minorities, and unfeeling jealous attitude Republicans like you have about the health of the plethora of people you despise, these all need to stop as soon as possible. Just like the jerk who bitches about traffic while weaving in and out and causing most of it, you are the problem.

 

You are the problem.

 

You are the problem.

[HB of CJ]

Phi for All: ... Now not sure if I like Cherry pie at all. I did. Try working for a living. In the mean time get out of my pocket. I worked hard my entire life. Nothing was given to me. I had to earn it the old fashioned way. This post and thread is again devolving into a paddy cake may pole sing along.

 

As a former emergency room RN one of my many jobs was getting the automobile accident victim to sign the permission slip. Had to have somebody from legal to witness. If the gork, (patient) could not sign, statute law at that time permitted us legally to do what was needed. They hardly bled out.

 

When my cracked tooth gets bad enough I will have it fixed. Pretty darn soon also! Yikes!

 

Now for those who are going down in flames trying non successfully to defend socialism, (small s) on any level, including the silly notion that we are all deserving of something FREE from our Gubmt and are now resorting to hateful personal attacks, let's keep this civil please. Some name calling is OK. Do not loose it.

 

The United States Constitution is our law of the land. It is who we are, where we came from and where we are going. The USA is not Europe. Fortunately. But ... unfortunately we do seem to be pestered with bad ELECTED politicians who seem to be into it for only their self aggrandizement.

 

swansont: ...If somebody does not make more money, earn more. Very simple and doable today. For everybody here who wants freebies from Uncle Sam, (which means out of MY POCKET) would you like some biscuits or hand cakes with your cheap whine? Finally .... why is a Science Forum so socialist?

 

Dunno fur sures. Not enough evidence. Correlation does not support causality. Twenty five degrees F. below normal right now. Global warming. About 42.4N, about 123W. Kinda. I would like some more pie please.

Edited June 26, 2017 by HB of CJ

[Manticore]

Every day I find new reasons to be thankful I live in a civilised country.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Manticore

[swansont]

 

swansont: ...If somebody does not make more money, earn more. Very simple and doable today. For everybody here who wants freebies from Uncle Sam, (which means out of MY POCKET) would you like some biscuits or hand cakes with your cheap whine? Finally .... why is a Science Forum so socialist?

 

 

 

Wow. When they were passing out privilege, you got in line for seconds.

 

I am of reminded of Sidney Harriss's famous cartoon: you need to be more explicit in step 2. How do you magically "earn more"? Is it a snap of the fingers, or a flick and swish with your wand?

 

You get stuff from Uncle Sam, too, and it comes out of my pocket as well. That's how taxation works. Are you going to stop drawing social security and using medicare when you reach the point where you're taking more than you contributed?

The United States Constitution is our law of the land. It is who we are, where we came from and where we are going. The USA is not Europe. Fortunately. But ... unfortunately we do seem to be pestered with bad ELECTED politicians who seem to be into it for only their self aggrandizement.

 

The US government tells you what time it is. Where in the Constitution does it enumerate that specific task?

[EdEarl]

HB of CJ

Minimum wage = $7.25

Income per week = $290 per week, which is about $15,000 per year.

I found an apartment nearby for $900 per month, which is 10,800 per year. That leaves about $4,200 for food, clothing, transportation, and health care.

 

The average cost of a hospital in the US is about $2000 per day. The average cost of a non-fatal car accident is over $60,000. The average cost of cancer drugs per month is $10,000.

 

Perhaps you were ignorant of these facts, if so, you now know. When you know it is impossible for many workers to afford medical care in the US, then telling someone to save money for health care is simply cruel.

[Phi for All]

I worked hard my entire life. Nothing was given to me.

 

And this is where the delusion starts. Libraries don't exist. Streets and highways aren't built with public money. Small business loans aren't available from the government. Nothing was given to you, except what progressives made sure you got, what they felt ALL the People deserved.

 

Nobody works as hard as those who hate loafers, and anybody that isn't in your position MUST be a loafer, right? People like you are the biggest hypocrites on the planet, and like I said before, it's your POV that keeps us in the dark. The kind of world you want isn't sustainable, so in essence you're damning your own children to suffer because you were too afraid of brown people, or poor people, or poor brown people.

[Delta1212]

Phi for All: ... Now not sure if I like Cherry pie at all. I did. Try working for a living. In the mean time get out of my pocket. I worked hard my entire life. Nothing was given to me. I had to earn it the old fashioned way. This post and thread is again devolving into a paddy cake may pole sing along.

 

As a former emergency room RN one of my many jobs was getting the automobile accident victim to sign the permission slip. Had to have somebody from legal to witness. If the gork, (patient) could not sign, statute law at that time permitted us legally to do what was needed. They hardly bled out.

 

When my cracked tooth gets bad enough I will have it fixed. Pretty darn soon also! Yikes!

 

Now for those who are going down in flames trying non successfully to defend socialism, (small s) on any level, including the silly notion that we are all deserving of something FREE from our Gubmt and are now resorting to hateful personal attacks, let's keep this civil please. Some name calling is OK. Do not loose it.

 

The United States Constitution is our law of the land. It is who we are, where we came from and where we are going. The USA is not Europe. Fortunately. But ... unfortunately we do seem to be pestered with bad ELECTED politicians who seem to be into it for only their self aggrandizement.

 

swansont: ...If somebody does not make more money, earn more. Very simple and doable today. For everybody here who wants freebies from Uncle Sam, (which means out of MY POCKET) would you like some biscuits or hand cakes with your cheap whine? Finally .... why is a Science Forum so socialist?

 

Dunno fur sures. Not enough evidence. Correlation does not support causality. Twenty five degrees F. below normal right now. Global warming. About 42.4N, about 123W. Kinda. I would like some more pie please.

I'm really impressed. Not many first graders are able to go to school full time while also holding down a job that allows them to pay private school tuition, let alone continue doing that all the way through the end of high school.

 

My hat is off to you.

[swansont]

Try working for a living. In the mean time get out of my pocket. I worked hard my entire life. Nothing was given to me. I had to earn it the old fashioned way.

 

 

Just goes to show how unaware you are of government services that you've relied on your entire life. Unless you never used roads, got mail, went to a public school, used a mortgage deduction, used GPS or dozens upon dozens of other niceties that our collective tax dollars provide.

[Delta1212]

 

 

Just goes to show how unaware you are of government services that you've relied on your entire life. Unless you never used roads, got mail, went to a public school, used a mortgage deduction, used GPS or dozens upon dozens of other niceties that our collective tax dollars provide.

The Bootstrap Guide to Independence and Success:

 

1. Take for granted all help that is given to you

2. Deny that any help has ever been given to you

3. Refuse to help anyone else

[Phi for All]

The Bootstrap Guide to Independence and Success:

 

1. Take for granted all help that is given to you

2. Deny that any help has ever been given to you

3. Refuse to help anyone else

 

4. Mock those who can't seem to stand on their own two feet because your foot is on their throat.

[rangerx]

(which means out of MY POCKET)

Weakest argument, ever.

It's not your money. Paying your taxes does not give you the right to tell the government how to spend it.

I'm not American, but I'm sure you'd say the opposite if I insisted my money not be used on bombs, walls or regular golf weekends in Airforce One.

[Sicarii]

 

I can see where people who think their god(s) cure disease would be irked at being forced to pay for someone else's doctor. Do these people not go to the doctor themselves? Isn't that only Christian Scientists?

 

It's peculiar, is it not?

 

That's precisely the point I wanted to make. They do not hold their party accountable, because the party panders to them at least in rhetoric and speech -- though never in content of legislation.

 

I'll take example of 'family values', a key issue for majority of GOP electorate, so-called "values voters". While GOP spends most of its time painting itself as the promoter and defender of family values, a critical review of the far-reaching impacts of GOP-sponsored legislation will almost certainly yield a diametrically opposed result. Health care and welfare are two issues that most impact families far than any topic revolving around abortion and gay rights, yet political candidates from school board to President of the United States are divided by their views on those two latter topics in local newspapers of one of the poorest rural areas in the United States, in Iowa (where a friend of mine happens to originate from).

 

I really have no solid answer as to why that is. I doubt anyone has.

[HB of CJ]

Wow. So many specious shallow arguments. I guess there are lots of sheep. Some sheep dogs. A few wolves. And only very few wolf hunters. There are doers and there are freeloaders. We know who we are. Enough said here.

[Delta1212]

Wow. So many specious shallow arguments. I guess there are lots of sheep. Some sheep dogs. A few wolves. And only very few wolf hunters. There are doers and there are freeloaders. We know who we are. Enough said here.

I'm betting you think the people arguing with you here are freeloaders, and that you're either a wolf or a "wolf hunter."

[swansont]

Wow. So many specious shallow arguments. I guess there are lots of sheep. Some sheep dogs. A few wolves. And only very few wolf hunters. There are doers and there are freeloaders. We know who we are. Enough said here.

 

 

The fact that you rebutted nothing makes this the shallowest argument of all.

[EdEarl]

Despite the oligarchs owning many news organizations that publish their propaganda, and despite paying politicians to vote for their agendas, this horrific bill may not pass into law. Unfortunately, the battle continues; perhaps we are at the "end of the beginning" (Churchill) of the battle. We are, I think, living in interesting times, and they're getting more interesting.

 

This battle is central to a free press and our understanding of truth, lies, propaganda and fake news. Fortunately, building a wall around the truth is impossible; truth tunnels through barriers. See (Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press, Netflix) We must win this battle and recover justice from the oligarchs who would take food from children and kick old people out of nursing homes so they can become richer.

 

Who are the freeloaders of whom HB of CJ speaks. Does he mean the oligarchs who want billions of dollars from us (about $100 per US citizen), or does he mean the children and invalids who must be helped. Perhaps he means the few people who defraud welfare and cost about $1.19 per person in the US. Not only must we struggle to find the truth, we must decide whether to seek justice and to be ethical. It is my hope that truth, justice and good ethics prevail.

 

 

Wikipedia

 

In 2016, the Office of Investigations for the Social Security Administration received 143 385 allegations and opened 8 048 cases. 1 162 persons were convicted for crime. Recoveries amounted to $52,6 million, fines to $4,5 million, settlements/judgements to $1,7 million and restitution to $70 million. The estimated savings were $355,7 million.

$355,7 million is about $1.19 per year per person saved by SSA by fraud settlements/judgments.

 

Edited to improve calculations.

Edited June 27, 2017 by EdEarl

[CharonY]

Phi for All: I do believe I never called myself a Capitalist. Perhaps you are mistaken. Many doable family financial plans exist to address individual health care costs. It is called a savings program. A novel idea today. Easy to eliminate any and all government interference. It gives the individual the freedom of choice. That plus our USA Constitution specifically delegates such to the States or the Individual.

How well do these financial plans work in cases of catastrophic diseases, such as breast cancer, with an average reported cost of ~125k? And if you have some form of insurance, you are betting on healthy people to bail you out.

 

Our extended nuclear family may or may not have such a savings program. Perhaps a conservatively oriented diversified investment program geared to long term stability. Housing. Education. Retirement. Even recreational vacations. Medical. Also it is a sense of family honor and responsibility. We try to negotiate medical costs beforehand. Payment in full with a deep cash discount. Or ... a payment schedule paid in full.

 

Personal note. I have a cracked lower molar. Hurts sometimes. No ice water for me! I have been deferring that required Crown so my grandkids can go to summer adventure boot camp. Eventually I will pull out the bucks to fix my tooth. Cheaper for us to just set money aside for years then occasionally spend it on necessary medical fixes. My friend dentist accepts cash. Novel in itself. We will negotiate a price.

And if everyone is deferring small(ish) problems due to financial burden, it can eventually lead to larger issues, such as e.g. infections which are going to much costlier in treatment. As someone having worked in the health industry one should be aware of those risks.

Edited June 27, 2017 by CharonY