Vegan can help World Hunger

[ModernArtist25]

 

LOL

 

Your ethics seem a little flexible and different for cats... Interesting...

 

It's the same. If humans need meat for survival, then that's what they have to eat. But in this day and age where we have supermarkets nearby, we have a lot of options, meat is not a necessity.

For example, the Inuit people who live in the Arctic, it's justifiable for them to eat meat because it's difficult for plants to grow there all year round.

[DrKrettin]

 

But in this day and age where we have supermarkets nearby, we have a lot of options, meat is not a necessity.

 

So what would you do with land which is impossible to cultivate, and only good for grass?

 

Where would you get your vitamin B12?

 

I've asked this before, but received no answer.

[ModernArtist25]

 

So what would you do with land which is impossible to cultivate, and only good for grass?

 

Where would you get your vitamin B12?

 

I've asked this before, but received no answer.

 

 

If you don't have access to the supermarket that has vegetables, fruits, beans, legumes, lentils, seeds, etc... and you have to settle for meat to survive, then that's what you have to eat. And vegans get their vitamin b12 in supplements. Farmers supplement their livestock with b12 so meat eaters can eat it, but vegans supplement it themselves.

How about you, do you have access to a grocery store near you?

Edited June 26, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[dimreepr]

 

It's the same. If humans need meat for survival, then that's what they have to eat. But in this day and age where we have supermarkets nearby, we have a lot of options, meat is not a necessity.

For example, the Inuit people who live in the Arctic, it's justifiable for them to eat meat because it's difficult for plants to grow there all year round.

 

So your ethical stance is based on money, which is my entire argument, middle class tinkering; if I can suffer, just a little bit, I can excuse my comfort.

[ModernArtist25]

 

So your ethical stance is based on money, which is my entire argument, middle class tinkering; if I can suffer, just a little bit, I can excuse my comfort.

 

I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate further?

[DrKrettin]

If you don't have access to the supermarket that has vegetables, fruits, beans, legumes, lentils, seeds, etc... and you have to settle for meat to survive, then that's what you have to eat. And vegans get their vitamin b12 in supplements. Farmers supplement their livestock with b12 so meat eaters can eat it, but vegans supplement it themselves.

How about you, do you have access to a grocery store near you?

 

That vitamin B12 answer is pathetic. Can you please give me some evidence that farmers feed vitamin B12 to their livestock? I've asked that before and received no reply.

[ModernArtist25]

 

That vitamin B12 answer is pathetic. Can you please give me some evidence that farmers feed vitamin B12 to their livestock? I've asked that before and received no reply.

 

The farm animals' diets are supplemented with B12:

 

http://www1.agric.go...f/all/beef11680

 

https://www.agric.wa...heep-and-cattle

 

http://www.agriking....ef-dairy-cattle

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[dimreepr]

 

I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate further?

 

if I can suffer, just a little bit, I can excuse my comfort.

 

 

In this sentence, when I say I, I really mean you; does that help?

[DrKrettin]

 

 

The farm animals' diets are supplemented with B12:

 

http://www1.agric.go...f/all/beef11680

 

https://www.agric.wa...heep-and-cattle

 

http://www.agriking....ef-dairy-cattle

 

 

 

The first two links don't work. The third link refers to the adding of cobalt to cattle feed. Vitamin B12 needs cobalt, but the vitamin itself is not added to the feed. The cattle can synthesize vitamin B12 provided they have the cobalt.

 

As I said in a previous ignored post, our species has lost the ability to synthesize B12, so feeding us cobalt would not be much use.

Edited June 26, 2017 by DrKrettin

[ModernArtist25]

 

 

In this sentence, when I say I, I really mean you; does that help?

 

Plenty of people on a plant based diet thrive. I don't see why it would be called suffering. Suffering is when you have heart disease, obesity and cancer from eating too much meat.

[dimreepr]

 

Plenty of people on a plant based diet thrive. I don't see why it would be called suffering. Suffering is when you have heart disease, obesity and cancer from eating too much meat.

 

Then it's not an ethical choice, it's a biological one; I only like a vegan diet.

[ModernArtist25]

 

The first two links don't work. The third link refers to the adding of cobalt to cattle feed. Vitamin B12 needs cobalt, but the vitamin itself is not added to the feed. The cattle can synthesize vitamin B12 provided they have the cobalt.

 

As I said in a previous ignored post, our species has lost the ability to synthesize B12, so feeding us cobalt would not be much use.

 

Try copying and pasting the links.

Another link you can check out:

https://www.dsm.com/markets/anh/en_US/Compendium/ruminants/vitamin_B12.html

[dimreepr]

An ethical choice DEMANDS suffering.

[DrKrettin]

 

Try copying and pasting the links.

Another link you can check out:

https://www.dsm.com/markets/anh/en_US/Compendium/ruminants/vitamin_B12.html

 

Yes, interesting, but you have still not demonstrated that farmers feed vitamin B12 to their livestock. Not good enough.

[ModernArtist25]

 

Yes, interesting, but you have still not demonstrated that farmers feed vitamin B12 to their livestock. Not good enough.

 

Livestock are supplemented with b12 because the animals that we are eating can’t even get b12 because of modern farming practices. The reason b12 are more prevalent among vegans is because they tend to eat less fortified food. Farmers know that they need to supplement these animals with b12 or they would die much earlier.

 

[DrKrettin]

 

Livestock are supplemented with b12 because the animals that we are eating can’t even get b12 because of modern farming practices. The reason b12 are more prevalent among vegans is because they tend to eat less fortified food. Farmers know that they need to supplement these animals with b12 or they would die much earlier.

 

 

 

So you have found a product which does that, presumably in the USA (Although I suspect it just contains cobalt, not vitamin B12). However, you can't just make a simplistic statement that farmers do that, because it is not generally true. I don't know what you mean by modern farming practices, but I used to be a sheep farmer and my sheep lived perfectly well without such supplements, and I was following what I thought was normal practice. The sheep were grazing land which was unsuitable for growing crops, by the way.

Edited June 26, 2017 by DrKrettin

[Delta1212]

Are you conscious of how your food got to your plate?

 

Perdue factory farm:

https://www.treehugg...ally-going.html

 

Tyson factory farm:

http://www.nbcnews.c...deo-f2D11627571

As has been pointed out, a good deal of land is only suitable for producing meat.

 

If everyone switched to a vegan diet, you would reduce the total land area required to feed everyone, but also reduce the total land area available for producing food.

 

You are making some decent arguments for reducing meat consumption, but have not yet made a good argument for a totally vegan diet.

[John Cuthber]

Are you conscious of how your food got to your plate?

 

Perdue factory farm:

https://www.treehugg...ally-going.html

 

Tyson factory farm:

http://www.nbcnews.c...deo-f2D11627571

If you really believe that the area needed to produce food for someone is some fixed quantity, and not dependent on climate latitude soil condition etc then you have pretty much proved that you have not thought this through and we can discount your opinion.

[DrKrettin]

If you really believe that the area needed to produce food for someone is some fixed quantity, and not dependent on climate latitude soil condition etc then you have pretty much proved that you have not thought this through and we can discount your opinion.

 

I have encountered many vegans, and this could apply to all of them. They just have not thought it through. As stated above by somebody, I think the OP has a good point that meat production could be reduced with a greater emphasis on vegetable crops, but he makes no case at all for veganism. I have yet to meet anybody who does.

[Sensei]

Farmers know that they need to supplement these animals with b12 or they would die much earlier.

Farmers had livestock long before chemical industry was able to artificially produce food supplements.

[Endy0816]

Only Bacteria and Archaea produce B12(cobalmin).

Vegans ironically are the ones who have it rough supply wise. Should take some form of supplement or consume fortified food.

 

Unlike animals, most, if not all, plants have no B12 requirement for any function, and therefore have no active mechanisms to produce or store B12. When B12 is found in them it can be due to contamination which is not reliable.

http://veganhealth.org/b12/plant#intro

 

 

There are many vegan foods fortified with B12. They include non-dairy milks, meat substitutes, breakfast cereals, and one type of nutritional yeast.

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources#fort

 

 

 

...and yeah, I've been trying to cut back myself. I'll have at least a couple meatless days out of the week now.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Endy0816

[Thorham]

but he makes no case at all for veganism. I have yet to meet anybody who does.

If reducing non-human suffering isn't enough, then you just don't give a damn.

[DrP]

Thorham - What will happen to the worlds stock of cows if everyone becomes vegan. Will they suffer less? Or die out and become extinct like most other life forms on the planet?

 

There are ways of reducing animal suffering and farming methods that can avoid suffering to animals. Total veganism doesn't guarantee the non suffering of these animals. I don't think it is necessary or fair.. we are animals too. If you took a carnivorous or a omnivorous animal and forced it to just eat a vegan diet then I would say that that isn't natural and may cause suffering to that animal.

 

I am all for the reduction of animal suffering. Doesn't mean we all have to be vegan though.

[Thorham]

I am all for the reduction of animal suffering. Doesn't mean we all have to be vegan though.

 

It's about the mentality. We should hold ourselves to higher standards. The way we treat other humans and non-humans is very bad, and needs to change.

 

Note: I'm not vegan.

[DrP]

I agree that things need to be better. I really do think we are improving though. These things just don't happen over night. I mentioned in that other thread that raping your spouse in the UK was only outlawed by the court of European human rights about 20 years ago. (That doesn't mean everyone went around raping each other.. it was just wasn't classed as illegal). We have a long way to go.

 

The UK has pushed and campaigned for animal rights and fair treatment of animals for a long time..... we still only banned fox hunting a few years back and the current government are trying to bring it back. Less people in the UK are proud to have gone to a Spanish bull fight... if you say you have gone to one here now people usually look at you with distain. We were taught about how bad battery farming of hens was back in the 80's and I am pretty sure there are less of those farms now.

 

I do not think there are many people that enjoy the suffering of any animal. Those that do can go and burn for all I care. Although there are animal rights activists that actually bomb cancer researchers cars and homes because of animal testing. Total extremism and despicable. Yes things need to change as you say, but I think they are changing... albeit slowly. What can you do?