Vegan can help World Hunger

[Itoero]

If reducing non-human suffering isn't enough, then you just don't give a damn.

I can imagine non-human animals, on average, suffer now a lot less then they once did...also wild animals.

[CharonY]

Skimming through the thread I did not find much information regarding the questions at hand, i.e. nutritional value of the respective diet, their associated health benefits and risks, the environmental impact and total nutritional production.

 

If interest persists, I can drag out paper that discuss at least some of the issues, but until then I am going to provide some info that I vaguely remember and which are hopefully correct.

 

Total production. Even in old paper from the 2000 it has been shown that the total production was sufficient to feed everyone (estimated 2700 kcal/person Alexandratos 1999, PNAS). Since then food production, especially in developing countries have increased much higher than the world population (with a net increase of over 10% more per person). It also been mentioned that in some non-arable areas using livestock could be more economical, and it is certainly true for small-scale farming with hardy animals, such as goats. I have not seen decent calculations for intensive farming or large herds (although I am quite curious about that).

 

 

Health benefits. There is no strong consensus for a general recommendation, but there is a lot of literature that suggest, on average, health benefits over an omnivorous diet. Meat generally provides benefits in cases where malnutrition can be a risk factor (e.g. elderly which have issues with nutrient adsorption). So overall, there is a case to be made here. That being said, the benefits seem to be almost the same for a primarily vegetarian diet with occasional meat (which was/is practice in many Asian countries, for example) over a strict vegetarian diet (I forgot the paper I saw the data, though, and will have to verify). These benefits are most pronounced in developed countries, where cardiovascular diseases are a higher causes of morbidity.

Certain groups, including pregnant women, children and elderly may benefit from meat uptake, though.

 

I am a bit at a loss what the discussion regarding B12 in livestock is about. In many formulated animal feed B12 (and a lot of other nutrients) are typically added. The issue is that in ruminants it is mostly useless, other simpler cobalt compounds are more effective. This is because ruminant biota is quite effective in synthesizing B12 and technically ruminants are feeding on bacteria.

. Does not mean that feed producers or farmers apply that knowledge. In other animals, addition of B12 have shown various degrees of benefits and that is why producers add them to sell it up to the farmers.

[DrKrettin]

I am a bit at a loss what the discussion regarding B12 in livestock is about. In many formulated animal feed B12 (and a lot of other nutrients) are typically added. The issue is that in ruminants it is mostly useless, other simpler cobalt compounds are more effective. This is because ruminant biota is quite effective in synthesizing B12 and technically ruminants are feeding on bacteria.

. Does not mean that feed producers or farmers apply that knowledge. In other animals, addition of B12 have shown various degrees of benefits and that is why producers add them to sell it up to the farmers.

 

Simple: the OP claimed a vegan diet was sufficient in itself. I said it was not because the only source of vitamin B12 was from animal products. He then said farmers feed B12 to animals, so vegans can take B12 pills. I found it difficult to believe that farmers did feed it to livestock, and it transpired that he was not differentiating between cobalt as an additive and B12.

 

I find arguing with vegans is rather pointless - a bit like with creationists.

[dimreepr]

 

It's about the mentality. We should hold ourselves to higher standards. The way we treat other humans and non-humans is very bad, and needs to change.

 

Speak for yourself, personally, I use a local butcher and know all the farmers that supply him, so I'm perfectly happy with the/my treatment of my fellow beings; of course, I understand we're not all so lucky, but with the correct regulation and enforcement, none of us need such an intimate understanding, of the supply chain, to fulfill any reasonably ethical standard; IOW it's our governors that should be held to higher standards, not ourselves.

 

Balance is the key, we don't need to deprive ourselves of anything to be free of guilt.

Edited June 27, 2017 by dimreepr

[CharonY]

 

Simple: the OP claimed a vegan diet was sufficient in itself. I said it was not because the only source of vitamin B12 was from animal products. He then said farmers feed B12 to animals, so vegans can take B12 pills. I found it difficult to believe that farmers did feed it to livestock, and it transpired that he was not differentiating between cobalt as an additive and B12.

 

I find arguing with vegans is rather pointless - a bit like with creationists.

 

Well, to me it seems that two very different things are argued with both being mostly correct. Veganism is associated with B12 deficiency, it can remediated with additives and/or fortified food products (though it is one of the reasons why vegetarianism is often recommended rather than veganism). It is also true that various lifestock feed are supplemented with B12 (cobalt is only used for ruminants). Sometimes the addition makes sense, in some cases (again, ruminants) it does not. Both are common practice AFAIK.

[dimreepr]

 

Well, to me it seems that two very different things are argued with both being mostly correct. Veganism is associated with B12 deficiency, it can remediated with additives and/or fortified food products (though it is one of the reasons why vegetarianism is often recommended rather than veganism). It is also true that various lifestock feed are supplemented with B12 (cobalt is only used for ruminants). Sometimes the addition makes sense, in some cases (again, ruminants) it does not. Both are common practice AFAIK.

 

There's a third option in this thread.

The argument, the counter-argument and the trivial.

[DrKrettin]

Veganism is associated with B12 deficiency, it can remediated with additives and/or fortified food products (though it is one of the reasons why vegetarianism is often recommended rather than veganism).

 

This opens another can of worms - I find vegetarianism even less defensible. If you consume dairy products, you are contributing to the production of animals which ultimately have to be eaten, or discarded. It makes no sense on any level.

[dimreepr]

 

This opens another can of worms - I find vegetarianism even less defensible. If you consume dairy products, you are contributing to the production of animals which ultimately have to be eaten, or discarded. It makes no sense on any level.

 

The trivial...

[Phi for All]

What if I agree to go against evolution, and start chasing down my meat again, and eat it while it's still alive, like many omnivores do? Would that be more "natural", and less offensive to vegans? After all, it's what animals encounter in the wild.

[Thorham]

 

Speak for yourself, personally, I use a local butcher and know all the farmers that supply him, so I'm perfectly happy with the/my treatment of my fellow beings

 

No, I'm speaking for every last human alive. You're happy with butchering your fellow beings while you don't have to, and think that's fine treatment, so I'm definitely talking about you too.

 

You could just say that you don't give a damn. Would be honest at least.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Thorham

[ModernArtist25]

 

No, I'm speaking for every last human alive. You're happy with butchering your fellow beings while you don't have to, and think that's fine treatment, so I'm definitely talking about you too.

 

You could just say that you don't give a damn. Would be honest at least.

 

I have a lot of respect for vegans, they have so much compassion, not just for cats and dogs but for all species. I think vegans are from the future. Eating meat might be one of those things that we will look back in the past with abhorrence. Just like today, we see burning black people alive or disabled people abandoned and left to die very repulsive. Maybe in the future, the majority of the people will be plant-based eaters, who knows...

 

This year I just found out that there is a National Animal Rights Day

Edited June 27, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Phi for All]

No, I'm speaking for every last human alive. You're happy with butchering your fellow beings while you don't have to, and think that's fine treatment, so I'm definitely talking about you too.

 

You could just say that you don't give a damn. Would be honest at least.

 

Why is it people think animal husbandry is worse "treatment" for a being than being hunted down and eaten alive in the wild? Why are you invoking the way we "treat" other beings when no other animal is held to that accountability? Could it be because of our higher intelligence? If so, then why is being smart enough to figure out a humane system for keeping multiple species viable such a bad thing?

 

You guys have to resort to misleading vividness like "happy with butchering your fellow beings" in order to find an emotional appeal, obviously because the rational appeals for veganism just aren't there.

[Thorham]

Eating meat might be one of those things that we will look back in the past with abhorrence.

The problem isn't eating meat, it's where the meat comes from. Remember, veganism isn't a diet.

 

Why is it people think animal husbandry is worse "treatment" for a being than being hunted down and eaten alive in the wild?

It's about what WE do, not about what happens in the wild.

 

Why are you invoking the way we "treat" other beings when no other animal is held to that accountability?

Because other species can't go to the supermarket and buy whatever the hell they want like many of us. If predators don't hunt, they die, while I don't have to. It's about choice. And yes, I realize full well that there are still many people who don't have a choice, and I'm not talking about them.

 

You guys have to resort to misleading vividness like "happy with butchering your fellow beings" in order to find an emotional appeal, obviously because the rational appeals for veganism just aren't there.

I'm NOT vegan. I've said this before. Anyway, it was you who said you're happy with the way the animals whose meat you buy are treated, so you're happy with them being butchered.

 

As for rational reasons, there aren't any. It's all purely emotional, just like there's no rational reason to not kill a human and take their money, for example. The reason I don't want to hurt others is because of empathy, which is completely emotional.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Thorham

[ModernArtist25]

The problem isn't eating meat, it's where the meat comes from. Remember, veganism isn't a diet.

 

 

 

I respect the vegan lifestyle. Not supporting any type of product that employ animal cruelty. 👌

[zapatos]

I respect the vegan lifestyle. Not supporting any type of product that employ animal cruelty.

 

Mouse traps? Wasp and ant spray? Hydroelectric dams? Vegetables grown in fields that were once animal habitat? Homes built of wood that came from trees that housed squirrels? I can go on for hours. You are going to have a hard time finding any products whose production didn't harm one animal or another.

[ModernArtist25]

 

Mouse traps? Wasp and ant spray? Hydroelectric dams? Vegetables grown in fields that were once animal habitat? Homes built of wood that came from trees that housed squirrels? I can go on for hours. You are going to have a hard time finding any products whose production didn't harm one animal or another.

More trees have to be cut down for crops harvested for livestock, this causes habitat destruction.

 

http://www.ecorazzi.com/2012/06/29/environmental-study-eat-less-meat-to-fight-deforestation/

 

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/beef-production-is-killing-the-amazon-rainforest/

 

There will always be suffering, but we can reduce suffering as much as we possibly can.

 

The electronics that we use, the clothing that we wear have caused suffering (slave labor)

Edited June 28, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Thorham]

 

You are going to have a hard time finding any products whose production didn't harm one animal or another.

 

Veganism is about doing what you can, not about making your own life impossible.

[zapatos]

More trees have to be cut down for crops harvested for livestock, this causes habitat destruction.

 

http://www.ecorazzi.com/2012/06/29/environmental-study-eat-less-meat-to-fight-deforestation/

 

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/beef-production-is-killing-the-amazon-rainforest/

 

There will always be suffering, but we can reduce suffering as much as we possibly can.

 

The electronics that we use, the clothing that we wear have caused suffering (slave labor)

 

So what is it? You don't support any product that employs cruelty, or you are willing to accept cruelty if it is for a product that you want?

 

Like everyone else, you are picking and choosing what level of impact you are willing to accept. You won't accept the impact to a cow, but you will accept it to birds and certain ground animals because you like that coffee table. Short of ending your own life, if you want to minimize your impact on animals you can have the most impact by not reproducing.

Veganism is about doing what you can, not about making your own life impossible.

 

Veganism is about doing what you can with respect to what you eat, not with any other aspect of your impact on other life. Not buying furniture to avoid the impact on animal habitat is not "making your life impossible". Veganism is only one small thing that people can do, and it is far from the most impactful.

[ModernArtist25]

 

So what is it? You don't support any product that employs cruelty, or you are willing to accept cruelty if it is for a product that you want?

 

Like everyone else, you are picking and choosing what level of impact you are willing to accept. You won't accept the impact to a cow, but you will accept it to birds and certain ground animals because you like that coffee table. Short of ending your own life, if you want to minimize your impact on animals you can have the most impact by not reproducing.

 

 

 

Ok, well who do you think cause less suffering, an omnivore who eats meat everyday or a vegan who doesn't eat meat, or use toothpaste,soap,and hair products that's been tested using animals but has a 10 yr old coffee table? I am not saying vegans are perfect but we gotta give them props for reducing suffering. Edited June 28, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[zapatos]

Ok, well who do you think cause less suffering, an omnivore who eats meat everyday or a vegan who doesn't eat meat, or use toothpaste,soap,and hair products that's been tested using animals but has a 10 yr old coffee table? I am not saying vegans are perfect but we gotta give them props for reducing suffering.

 

You didn't answer my question.

[ModernArtist25]

 

So what is it? You don't support any product that employs cruelty, or you are willing to accept cruelty if it is for a product that you want?

 

 

If it is for the product that would make my life easier, yes. And I need to eat meat every now and then too because it would satisfy my taste buds. But we have to admit, it doesn't change the fact that vegans reduce more suffering than your typical meat eater.

[Thorham]

 

Veganism is about doing what you can with respect to what you eat, not with any other aspect of your impact on other life. Not buying furniture to avoid the impact on animal habitat is not "making your life impossible". Veganism is only one small thing that people can do, and it is far from the most impactful.

 

Veganism is about avoiding ALL animal products as much as possible, not just about food. Many people think it's just about food, but it's about more than that. It's also not a diet.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Thorham

[zapatos]

 

Veganism is about avoiding ALL animal products as much as possible, not just about food. Many people think it's just about food, but it's about more than that. It's also not a diet.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

If it is for the product that would make my life easier, yes. And I need to eat meat every now and then too because it would satisfy my taste buds.

Well then we are just the same!

 

We both put making our lives easier and tastier over the welfare of animals.

[ModernArtist25]

Thanks for the clarification.

Well then we are just the same!

 

We both put making our lives easier and tastier over the welfare of animals.

LOL...Except I used to buy my meat from the grocery store and most meat from your local friendly Walmart or Publix came from farms that don't respect animals at the time that they were living, physical abuse and horrible conditions. But now I purchase from farms that raise their animals ethically. Go check out http://www.whiteoakpastures.com or http://www.halalpastures.com

 

But before, when I was blinded, I used to buy these

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tyson-foods-dumps-pig-farm-after-nbc-shows-company-video-f2D11627571

 

or https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/perdue-chicken-farmer-invites-film-crew-his-farm-show-whats-really-going.html

Edited June 28, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[zapatos]

LOL...Except I used to buy my meat from the grocery store and most meat from your local friendly Walmart or Publix came from farms that don't respect animals at the time that they were living, physical abuse and horrible conditions. But now I purchase from farms that raise their animals ethically. Go check out http://www.whiteoakpastures.com or http://www.halalpastures.com

 

But before, when I was blinded, I used to buy these

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tyson-foods-dumps-pig-farm-after-nbc-shows-company-video-f2D11627571

 

or https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/perdue-chicken-farmer-invites-film-crew-his-farm-show-whats-really-going.html

 

I've no doubt that what you are doing is helpful in some very small way. But it is not much, and its focus is narrow. If you have children then you are doing more to harm animal welfare than you've ever alleviated by being vegan.

 

I give money to people on the street but I recognize that while it makes me feel good about myself, it really does virtually nothing to help the problem. Indeed, I may unknowingly be contributing to bigger problems. On the other hand I am focusing on people instead of cows, so there's that.

 

Unless you are willing to exit this world, you are likely doing it more harm than good. Veganism is a nice gesture, but it is not much more than that.