Killing Animals and Spirituality?

[Bender]

Handy andy, those are interesting questions. At the end of the day, righteousness is subjective isn't it?

 

 

You see, we never really read a headline that said judge convicts parents after baby dies from omnivorous diet. Ask yourself, why? It’s sad that some people read these articles about baby dying from vegan diet and can’t think critically. How many vegans are there in the world? That’s like 1 percent. How many people out there are actually raising their child to be vegan? Very small percentage. How many babies in the world die because of health related issues? It’s way more than 1 percent. And what type of diet these babies are on? Most babies are on an omnivorous diet. But you never see those headlines in the news.

 

This reminds me of the time when a vegan had died trying to climb Mount Everest and the media made a big deal about it and blamed it on a vegan diet. But they never acknowledged all the vegans who have successfully reached the top of Mount Everest. And every other person who has failed and died trying to climb Mount Everest, 99% of them were meat eaters. That’s why when reading articles, always ask yourself why. These articles you see about the babies dying from vegan diet, it is because the parents are not feeding them enough and babies are underweight, and we are not given enough details of how much these parents are feeding their children.

 

Can you tell that a lot of these animal products industries have financial ties to the media industry? After all it’s the media that promotes their products right? McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, Papa John’s, you name it. If the animal products industry see that veganism seems to be on the rise, they create fear and doubt in the people to stir them off from choosing a vegan diet.

You are dead wrong about media not reporting meat-related child deaths.

 

Especially for babies, who don't eat meat yet, milk/formula is just safer. It contains everything the baby needs, no supplements required. Same for older children and even adults: a vegan diet requires more thought and consideration.

 

But my main point was that a vegan diet isn't all great and also has its weaknesses.

 

The farm animals' diets are supplemented with B12:

 

http://www1.agric.go...f/all/beef11680

 

https://www.agric.wa...heep-and-cattle

 

http://www.agriking....ef-dairy-cattle

Thank you. I don't see why that is a problem though. I would be pretty poor at having to think about supplements, so I just eat a lot of different things for a balanced diet. Cattle farmers are professionals and know what the animals need to remain healthy. Likewise, bakers add Iodine to bread, so I don't have to worry about my iodine levels.

 

I am also still interested in your opinion about pet cat ownership, vermin extermination and bug squatting.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bender

[ModernArtist25]

You are dead wrong about media not reporting meat-related child deaths.

 

Especially for babies, who don't eat meat yet, milk/formula is just safer. It contains everything the baby needs, no supplements required. Same for older children and even adults: a vegan diet requires more thought and consideration.

 

 

I am also still interested in your opinion about pet cat ownership, vermin extermination and bug squatting.

 

Cow’s milk is for calves. Human milk is for human babies. Each mother makes the perfect food for her baby. The breast milk composition changes as the child grows so that the milk of a mother with a three month old is totally different than the milk this same mother produced when that baby was a newborn. These changes are specifically designed by nature to meet the continuing developmental needs of the child. Now if for some reason the mother is unable to breastmilk, maybe she's all dried up already, I guess she needs to do what she has to do in order for the baby to survive, even if it means taking another species milk. And when have you heard about a baby who died of an "omnivore" diet? and what about cats, vermins and bugs?

 

 

But my main point was that a vegan diet isn't all great and also has its weaknesses.

 

 

I agree, same with omnivore diet, it has its weaknesses. Every type of diet requires planning if you want to be healthy. Since we are omnivores, humans in a plant-based diet can thrive and people who eat a little bit of meat can also thrive. But I'm talking about compassion here in this topic, the best way to reduce suffering is by eliminating meat products.

Edited June 26, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Bender]

I haven't heard of a baby dying of an omnivore diet. Have you? (something went wrong in my link in the previous post, where you can find plenty of examples of children dying after eating spoiled meat. I fixed it now. I didn't specifically search for babies.)

 

 

So what about cats, vermin and bugs?

 

Is it ok to own a cat, tremendously increasing the suffering of mice and birds?

 

Is it ok to commit genocide on vermin?

 

Is it ok to mutilate bugs and leave them to die slowly?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bender

[ModernArtist25]

I haven't heard of a baby dying of an omnivore diet. Have you? (something went wrong in my link in the previous post, where you can find plenty of examples of children dying after eating spoiled meat. I fixed it now. I didn't specifically search for babies.)

 

 

So what about cats, vermin and bugs?

 

Is it ok to own a cat, tremendously increasing the suffering of mice and birds?

 

Is it ok to commit genocide on vermin?

 

Is it ok to mutilate bugs and leave them to die slowly?

 

Okay so they blamed the meat that's been spoiled but not specifically the diet that includes meat or omnivore diet. They blame vegan diet instead of the parents not feeding children(not talking about babies here) enough food or enough variety of food that will give them all the nutrients that they need. There's no need to say the vegan diet is the cause because there are children out there who is definitely thriving on a vegan diet.

 

It's ok to own a cat, it won't be increasing the suffering of mice and birds if it's not let loose around the neighborhood.

If the vermin is a threat to our survival of the human species, yes it's ok to genocide on vermin.

I don't think it's ok to kill vermin or bugs unless they are negatively affecting our health or well-being. To be honest, as I am growing older, I start to feel more not only for cats and dogs, but other living things/earthlings that call this planet their home.

[Roger Dynamic Motion]

Do you think someone can be spiritual even if they pay someone to kill an animal so they can eat meat?

What if that person is a millionaire or billionaire and donating to charities all over the world yet still support the suffering of people, animals, and the environment by eating meat? Let's say that a rich person donates to charities that help with climate change and world hunger.

Is this person using his/her money to relieve the symptoms but not necessarily getting to the root of the problem? What do you all think?

well one can eat grass ? what do you like ?

[Moontanman]

 

Okay so they blamed the meat that's been spoiled but not specifically the diet that includes meat or omnivore diet. They blame vegan diet instead of the parents not feeding children(not talking about babies here) enough food or enough variety of food that will give them all the nutrients that they need. There's no need to say the vegan diet is the cause because there are children out there who is definitely thriving on a vegan diet.

 

It's ok to own a cat, it won't be increasing the suffering of mice and birds if it's not let loose around the neighborhood.

If the vermin is a threat to our survival of the human species, yes it's ok to genocide on vermin.

I don't think it's ok to kill vermin or bugs unless they are negatively affecting our health or well-being. To be honest, as I am growing older, I start to feel more not only for cats and dogs, but other living things/earthlings that call this planet their home.

 

 

So you feed your cat vegan cat food?

[ModernArtist25]

I cannot feed my cat vegan cat food because cats are obligate carnivores. Cats cannot survive on eating plants. I buy his meat from the same farm I buy my meat. Where they raise their animals ethically. I buy my meat from www.whiteoakpastures.com My friend and I had actually visited the place too, animals seem lively and happy, up until the time they get killed. 😰 But it is waaaay better than Perdue or Tyson farms, I shouldn't even compare. Did you see the videos that I posted on how they treat animals on those big named meat product companies that you predominantly see at the supermarket? What do you think of it?

Edited June 27, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Bender]

Okay so they blamed the meat that's been spoiled but not specifically the diet that includes meat or omnivore diet. They blame vegan diet instead of the parents not feeding children(not talking about babies here) enough food or enough variety of food that will give them all the nutrients that they need. There's no need to say the vegan diet is the cause because there are children out there who is definitely thriving on a vegan diet.

The vegan diet is the cause, because if the parents had just given their baby regular food, there wouldn't be a problem. Being ill-informed wouldn't have caused nutritional deficiencies if they had just given their children formula, like everybody else (if breast milk is not an option).

In the case of children dying from spoiled meat, the persons responsible for the spoiled meat get the blame. Try not to mix in double standards of your own here.

 

It's ok to own a cat, it won't be increasing the suffering of mice and birds if it's not let loose around the neighborhood.

If the vermin is a threat to our survival of the human species, yes it's ok to genocide on vermin.

I don't think it's ok to kill vermin or bugs unless they are negatively affecting our health or well-being. To be honest, as I am growing older, I start to feel more not only for cats and dogs, but other living things/earthlings that call this planet their home.

If people don't own cats, the alternative is not free-roaming cats; the alternative is (in general) no cats. As a result, owning a cat most certainly increases suffering of mice and birds (and moles and squirrels...).

 

What if the vermin is not a threat to our survival? Cockroaches, ants, bed bugs... none of them kill humans.

 

So you are ok with mutilating animals because they annoy you (affect your well-being), but not to eat them?

I cannot feed my cat vegan cat food because cats are obligate carnivores. Cats cannot survive on eating plants. I buy his meat from the same farm I buy my meat. Where they raise their animals ethically. I buy my meat from www.whiteoakpastures.com My friend and I had actually visited the place too, animals seem lively and happy, up until the time they get killed. But it is waaaay better than Perdue or Tyson farms, I shouldn't even compare. Did you see the videos that I posted on how they treat animals on those big named meat product companies that you predominantly see at the supermarket? What do you think of it?

Vegan cat food.

[DrP]

My 2 cents with regard to the OP: - I must say that I do not like factory/battery farming either. But I thought that these practices were being reduced. Certainly over here we advocate ethical treatment of the animals we eat. I think that is a good thing. No point in being cruel about it. I am sure there are still atrocities going on, but I hope to human nature that we will become more and more ethical in our treatment of the animals we kill for food. We are still developing as a human civilisation.. it was still legal (or rather, wasn't illegal) to rape your wife in this country just 21 years ago (It wasn't seen as rape to take your spouse without request - thanks to the court of European rights this has changed, consent is now needed). Obviously the world still has a long way to go with regard to 'becoming civilised'. I am sure, as with human rights, animal rights are also improving thankfully.

 

Trying to guilt people into being vegan probably won't work on anyone except little girls under the age of 10.

Edited June 27, 2017 by DrP

[ModernArtist25]

 

If people don't own cats, the alternative is not free-roaming cats; the alternative is (in general) no cats. As a result, owning a cat most certainly increases suffering of mice and birds (and moles and squirrels...).

 

 

Vegan cat food.

Alternative is having cats, being a responsible owner, not letting the cat loose in the neighborhood. I let my cat out on a leash so he gets to smell the fresh air and sunlight. I know owners who have a catio for their cats to have fun while getting the taste of outdoors. I think you saying people shouldn't own cats at all doesn't make any sense...LOL. One can be a responsible cat owner you know. My cat had never killed a mice or bird or infect any other animal with disease.

 

http://www.adventurecats.org

 

Did you watch the videos on Tyson meat farm and Perdue? How do you feel about meat that came from these type of factories that you find in supermarkets?

Obviously the world still has a long way to go with regard to 'becoming civilised'. I am sure, as with human rights, animal rights are also improving thankfully.

 

.

That is true, there is hope.

Vegan cat food.

Feeding that type of food long term causes urinary tract infection and inflammation. Cats don't do well on potatoes and grains. They are obligate carnivores. Edited June 27, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Bender]

Alternative is having cats, being a responsible owner, not letting the cat loose in the neighborhood. I let my cat out on a leash so he gets to smell the fresh air and sunlight. I know owners who have a catio for their cats to have fun while getting the taste of outdoors. I think you saying people shouldn't own cats at all doesn't make any sense...LOL. One can be a responsible cat owner you know. My cat had never killed a mice or bird or infect any other animal with disease.

Fair enough. How does not being able to hunt affect a cats psychology?

Our cat does a great job at limiting the mouse and mole population in our garden. I don't mind.

 

What about the bugs?

Did you watch the videos on Tyson meat farm and Perdue? How do you feel about meat that came from these type of factories that you find in supermarkets?

I don't need to. Such abuse is illegal in my country, and several such companies where closed recently for less serious abuse.

 

Feeding that type of food long term causes urinary tract infection and inflammation. Cats don't do well on potatoes and grains. They are obligate carnivores.

citation required (and not just a few examples)

What is it specifically that a cat cannot get from food with supplements? The manufacturer certainly claims that it contains everything a cat needs to be healthy.

[ModernArtist25]

Fair enough. How does not being able to hunt affect a cats psychology?

Our cat does a great job at limiting the mouse and mole population in our garden. I don't mind.

 

What about the bugs?

 

I don't need to. Such abuse is illegal in my country, and several such companies where closed recently for less serious abuse.

 

citation required (and not just a few examples)

What is it specifically that a cat cannot get from food with supplements? The manufacturer certainly claims that it contains everything a cat needs to be healthy.

If the cat is mainly indoors and the owner plays with the cat so it can express its natural behavior, then that is a good thing. There are plenty of great cat toys being sold out there. A lot of cats really like "da bird" toy. Makes my cat do back flips and side flips. 😄 I remember a co-worker telling me that her cat is such a bitch because it scratches her all the time, when I asked her if she plays with her cat, she said no. I knew that was the problem. Cats need to release their energy somehow right? Or they will cause destruction.

 

Like I mentioned before, in my opinion, it is ok to kill bugs if they are causing a threat to your health. There are cases of roaches going inside people's ears or eyes, or other parts of their bodies. There were a couple of times when a bug got in my car, my friend was about to kill it, but I told him to just let it outside which I was glad he did. 👌

 

Just because a product claim to do something doesn't mean it cannot cause issues on other areas. Here are links to cat nutrition, talks about grains and starches too:

 

http://catinfo.org

 

 

Vegan cat food is filled with carbs.

 

"In their natural setting, cats whose unique biology makes them true carnivores would not consume the high level of carbohydrates (grains, potatoes, peas, etc.) that are in the dry foods (and some canned foods) that we routinely feed them. You would never see a wild cat chasing down a herd of biscuits running across the plains of Africa or dehydrating her mouse and topping it off with corn meal.

 

In the wild, your cat would be eating a high protein, high-moisture, meat/organ-based diet, with a moderate level of fat and with only approximately 1-2 percent of her diet consisting of carbohydrates. The average dry food contains 35-50 percent carbohydrate calories."

 

 

http://feline-nutrition.org/health/feline-inflammatory-bowel-disease-nature-and-treatment

 

https://animalwellnessmagazine.com/preventing-ibd-cats/

 

There are lots of info online about cat nutrition

Edited June 27, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Bender]

The problem with your cat links is that I can find a lot of hearsay, opinion ("I believe..." ), speculation and plain nonsense (chemicals are evil), but very little actual data. Perhaps it is well hidden, after all I'm just browsing on my phone atm. Are there any actual studies that show an objective relation between carbs or plant proteines and medical conditions?

I have little trouble with bladder problems due to too little drinking. Luckily our cat drinks a lot (and catches lots of juicy mice).

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bender

[Kevin Mulisa Isaya]

Killing is Killing no matter you kill animal or Human being, last Week The government of Tanzania burnt over 2000 chicken imported illegally , this issue was not received in positive response to many people who argue on how someone can just burn living things,

[zapatos]

On 11/24/2017 at 4:03 PM, Kevin Mulisa Isaya said:

Killing is Killing no matter you kill animal or Human being...

Well, that's your opinion, and I dare say it is in the minority. According to the law and most people, there is a big difference between killing a human and, say, killing a mouse.

[Phi for All]

On 11/24/2017 at 3:03 PM, Kevin Mulisa Isaya said:

Killing is Killing no matter you kill animal or Human being, last Week The government of Tanzania burnt over 2000 chicken imported illegally , this issue was not received in positive response to many people who argue on how someone can just burn living things,

You can't live with this outlook on death. Destroying an ant MUST have different consequences than destroying a human.

If the chickens were burnt alive, I consider that unnecessarily cruel and unusual, and it would be criminal in much of the world. If they were killed humanely and then burned, it might have been for medical reasons. If they were burned just to get rid of them, I think that's a waste of good chicken. 

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Well, that's your opinion, and I dare say it is in the minority. According to the law and most people, there is a big difference between killing a human and, say, killing a mouse.

For me, intent is the key. Killing should never involve more suffering than necessary, and nobody should enjoy suffering even a little bit. 

[Thomasmariel]

I like to think that reality has always just been its origin, and that contradiction has never been true, and that the way for the origin to find peace is for life in the universe to keep adopting the attitude that it doesn't exist

[zapatos]

56 minutes ago, Thomasmariel said:

I like to think that reality has always just been its origin, and that contradiction has never been true, and that the way for the origin to find peace is for life in the universe to keep adopting the attitude that it doesn't exist

Say what?

[Thomasmariel]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Say what?

The perspective that life after God isn't real, and that all is just God's internal conflict feels like the necessary and helpful perspective, even though it's not a practical answer

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, Thomasmariel said:

The perspective that life after God isn't real, and that all is just God's internal conflict,,,

I don't think I've ever come across anyone expressing that perspective before.

[Hypsibius]

I don't really fancy getting into another discussion about veganism/vegetarianism/meat-eating because at my age I've already been in too many... but since the OP mentioned spirituality, there's something that this topic reminded me of and that I'd like to share for the sake of novelty:

Apparently, karma is not arithmetic. 

This at least is my understanding of what was explained to me by some well-educated Tibetan Buddhist monks. The OP mentioned a person who performs a morally negative action (killing an animal or paying another to kill such animal)  but also does morally positive deeds (charity, etc). According to what I was explained, in Buddhism a negative action produces an accumulation of a certain negative karma, which in time will mature and cause certain (negative) effect, while a positive action produces an accumulation of positive karma which will in turn produce positive effects. However, all this karma is not cumulative. The positive karma resulting from a morally positive deed does not erase the negative karma resulting from a morally negative deed or viceversa. Basically, according to this system of thought, this hypothetical person killing an animal and supporting charities will at some point experience both the results of his/her bad karma and those of his/her good karma. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dimreepr]

50 minutes ago, Hypsibius said:

I don't really fancy getting into another discussion about veganism/vegetarianism/meat-eating because at my age I've already been in too many... but since the OP mentioned spirituality, there's something that this topic reminded me of and that I'd like to share for the sake of novelty:

Apparently, karma is not arithmetic. 

This at least is my understanding of what was explained to me by some well-educated Tibetan Buddhist monks. The OP mentioned a person who performs a morally negative action (killing an animal or paying another to kill such animal)  but also does morally positive deeds (charity, etc). According to what I was explained, in Buddhism a negative action produces an accumulation of a certain negative karma, which in time will mature and cause certain (negative) effect, while a positive action produces an accumulation of positive karma which will in turn produce positive effects. However, all this karma is not cumulative. The positive karma resulting from a morally positive deed does not erase the negative karma resulting from a morally negative deed or viceversa. Basically, according to this system of thought, this hypothetical person killing an animal and supporting charities will at some point experience both the results of his/her bad karma and those of his/her good karma. 

3

It very much depends on what the person in question considers to be morally negative.

[Moontanman]

Human beings can't survive without something dying, life it's self feeds on or depends on death. There is no way to escape this, no end run. All we can do is make sure animals aren't being killed for fun and dispatching them is as human as possible...

[Hypsibius]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It very much depends on what the person in question considers to be morally negative.

Well, at least in the Buddhist system of thought, what I imprecisely referred to as "morally negative" is intended as actions, words and/or thoughts that cause harm to sentient beings (including to the agent himself/herself) or in other words anything that is motivated by "avidyā" (ignorance, i.e. the lack of clear understanding of the true nature of things).

In such system of thought, an action motivated by anger, for example, generates bad karma, because anger is an emotion that stems from ignorance. 

[Moontanman]

14 minutes ago, Hypsibius said:

Well, at least in the Buddhist system of thought, what I imprecisely referred to as "morally negative" is intended as actions, words and/or thoughts that cause harm to sentient beings (including to the agent himself/herself) or in other words anything that is motivated by "avidyā" (ignorance, i.e. the lack of clear understanding of the true nature of things).

In such system of thought, an action motivated by anger, for example, generates bad karma, because anger is an emotion that stems from ignorance. 

Why would killing an animal for food be any different than an animal killing a human for food? Or really just for fun or maybe out of fear...?