Taxation

[swansont]

I oppose taxes in general

QUOTE "I oppose taxes in general"

 

... so, do you oppose the fire brigade, police and army services, ambulances street cleaners, education and road maintenance too?

 

I do not oppose "the fire brigade, police and army services, ambulances street cleaners, education and road maintenance too" but we can pay for these services directly like you pay for electricity and not taken from taxes. Trust me, all these services would benefit from such a change. Tax money is poorly controlled, poorly attributed to where it needs to be:

No, we really can't do it that way. That's not how it works.

 

Let's say it costs $10,000 for a visit from the fire brigade. You're able to pay that when you need to call them and put out a fire? Or pay a subscription fee, which will be higher than the tax because some can't afford it or will otherwise choose not to pay? This is not something you can forego and all of the sudden buy when you need it; your house is already on fire.

 

And the army? What military services can you have that are paid for directly? Either your country is defending itself or it isn't.

[Sensei]

Swansont, you are looking at it, very conservative way.

If the all people would agree we don't use money, we don't do work for money, but still everybody fulfill their responsibilities, taxes would be not needed.

And everything would work as usual. There would be no robbery, and murders to remove witnesses, economy crisis, etc. etc.

 

In some Amish villages men are gathering together to build house for one of their family. Everything for free.

They know that when their time will come, other will help building their house in revenge.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Sensei

[Silvestru]

I didn't mean that you pay only when your house is on fire. You pay monthly, like an insurance. Everyone pays the services withing their area.

I have private healthcare that I pay monthly for.(a very small amount)

 

It is much more reliable that going for public hospital and the staff and doctors are getting paid much more. You can feel the difference in attitude.

Education system is the same. Some private schools are just snobbish but a lot of them follow a very good educational program. Generally they are much better than public ones.

 

This example that I gave is already in use for a lot of fields.

Swansont, you are looking at it, very conservative way.

If the all people would agree we don't use money, we don't do work for money, but still everybody fulfill their responsibilities, taxes would be not needed.

And everything would work as usual. There would be no robbery, and murders to remove witnesses, economy crisis, etc. etc.

 

In some Amish villages men are gathering together to build house for one of their family. Everything for free.

They know that when their time will come, other will help building their house in revenge.

 

 

Sorry Sensei but in my mind I wouldn't go so far as to remove money. What you describe sounds like communism.

 

I was thinking of less control from Government and let the market live naturally. The market prices will control themselves.

[swansont]

Swansont, you are looking at it, very conservative way.

 

If the all people would agree we don't use money, we don't do work for money, but still everybody fulfill their responsibilities, taxes would be not needed.

And everything would work as usual. There would be no robbery, and murders to remove witnesses, economy crisis, etc. etc.

 

In some Amish villages men are gathering together to build house for one of their family. Everything for free.

They know that when their time will come, other will help building their house in revenge.

That works in small communities (especially ideologically homogenous ones), but not so well in larger ones. The rest is just a pipe dream of utopia, which doesn't exist.

I didn't mean that you pay only when your house is on fire. You pay monthly, like an insurance. Everyone pays the services withing their area.

I have private healthcare that I pay monthly for.(a very small amount)

And what if you can't afford this insurance?

 

It is much more reliable that going for public hospital and the staff and doctors are getting paid much more. You can feel the difference in attitude.

Education system is the same. Some private schools are just snobbish but a lot of them follow a very good educational program. Generally they are much better than public ones.

 

This example that I gave is already in use for a lot of fields.

Private schools in the US are actually worse than public ones in many instances. Especially considering that private schools can pick and choose their students.

 

And what about the army? What about bridges and roads? GPS?

 

Sorry Sensei but in my mind I wouldn't go so far as to remove money. What you describe sounds like communism.

 

I was thinking of less control from Government and let the market live naturally. The market prices will control themselves.

The market is oft-touted as a theoretical solution but rarely works in practice for the services that government provides. Health care is a prime example, and a current topic of lively debate in the US.

[DrP]

QUOTE: "It's much more reliable than going to a public hospital.."

 

That's because the public one is underfunded because people don't like paying tax... so you get decent healthcare for those that can afford it and whatever the underpaid public service staff can be bothered to do for the poor then eh? So selfish imo. If what you and others paid into insurance was tax in stead then everyone's healthcare would improve.... but I suppose they don't deserve it if they haven't got the money then eh?

[Silvestru]

Well especially because you are a US citizen, you should know that tax money is not being used at high efficiency.

 

You think USA isn't spending a bit too much on military?

 

In the chart below most tax money is spent on Social Security, Unemployment and Health. No offense but Canada spends less on Healthcare and have much better results.

 

1% science. Ok I am drifting off but my point is that you either enforce a Tax "police" of remove tax altogether and come up with a new system.

 

[Sensei]

That works in small communities (especially ideologically homogenous ones), but not so well in larger ones.

 

It's inevitable in the future. Public healthcare, police, teachers, and other services, everybody paid from money received from taxes, want to get more and more salary.

Which forces governments to increase taxes and/or take loans. But they can't grow up to infinity. They can't exceed 100%.

The same with prices and stock markets. They cannot grow up to infinity.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Sensei

[Silvestru]

QUOTE: "It's much more reliable than going to a public hospital.."

 

That's because the public one is underfunded because people don't like paying tax... so you get decent healthcare for those that can afford it and whatever the underpaid public service staff can be bothered to do for the poor then eh? So selfish imo. If what you and others paid into insurance was tax in stead then everyone's healthcare would improve.... but I suppose they don't deserve it if they haven't got the money then eh?

 

I really cannot speak about your country but I really pay 15$ a month for this "private healthcare". It sounds way more pretentious for you probably.

 

Exactly, people don't like paying tax. That's why the system isn't working.

 

 

 

but I suppose they don't deserve it if they haven't got the money then eh?

 

about this... DrP, I live in Poland...people who are able to are working here. They don't just get social benefit for being lazy.

Of course we should take care of the sick and the poor. Just through a different method. Why do you guys see Taxation as the angel of poor people?

Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland have huge taxes and all over 24% VAT. But they use this tax money very efficiently, education, healthcare. Not many murders, obesity, drug problems, emigration etc etc there...

 

Taxation can work but the current model applied in most countries is not encouraging progress. Tell me Swansont, how many generations ago did your family move to USA?

Edited July 5, 2017 by Silvestru

[Delta1212]

What if I want to start my own private police force and enforce my own laws. Can people subscribe to my competing service?

 

Is it legal to murder someone who can't afford a police subscription?

 

If my neighbor's house catches fire and he hasn't been paying for fire brigade service, are they going to wait until my house catches fire to do anything about it?

[Silvestru]

What if I want to start my own private police force and enforce my own laws. Can people subscribe to my competing service?

 

Is it legal to murder someone who can't afford a police subscription?

 

If my neighbor's house catches fire and he hasn't been paying for fire brigade service, are they going to wait until my house catches fire to do anything about it?

 

Delta... what is the value of your post? Where did you get the impression that laws would be nullified?

 

I was really hoping for a more mature approach from you.

 

What happens to you if you get stabbed and don't have insurance?

Again I am adding as people keep bringing it up:

 

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT TAXATION IS MADE TO HELP POOR PEOPLE?

[DrP]

Just because there is corruption doesn't make the whole idea of it wrong. Without taxes there would be NO health care system for the masses that cannot afford it. I liked Delta's post... what does happen in your world without taxes to someone with no money who needs the emergency services? (sorry - we call them 'services' in our country - we pay our taxes so that these 'services' can be the same for everyone, not just the rich).

 

So to answer your bold type question: - without taxation there would be no public heath care, there would only be care for those that could pay for it.

[Silvestru]

Read my post again. Where did I say to just drop all these services? Where did I say that only people who can afford them can get them?

 

The reason they can't afford them is because they don't have a job most of the times. They don't have a job very often because they lack education. No education because the system is lousy.

 

I met a simple diner cook from Finland once. He knew more history about my country than me. He had comprehensive knowledge about geography, science etc. He all got that from school not by his own passion. Lets go together to Finland and count the Homeless Finnish people. We wont find too many I will tell you that. If you are well educated you will always find a job.

[swansont]

It's inevitable in the future. Public healthcare, police, teachers, and other services, everybody paid from money received from taxes, want to get more and more salary.

Which forces governments to increase taxes and/or take loans. But they can't grow up to infinity. They can't exceed 100%.

The same with prices and stock markets. They cannot grow up to infinity.

I can assure you that a civil servant wanting a higher salary has little to do with actually getting a higher salary.

[Delta1212]

 

Delta... what is the value of your post? Where did you get the impression that laws would be nullified?

 

I was really hoping for a more mature approach from you.

 

What happens to you if you get stabbed and don't have insurance?

 

Again I am adding as people keep bringing it up:

 

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT TAXATION IS MADE TO HELP POOR PEOPLE?

These are actual questions about the practicality of how this system works. You can't just say "people will subscribe to it like insurance", you have to cover the details of edge cases and the like.

 

People think taxation is a benefit to the poor because it is a system whereby you can enforce payment based on means rather than need. This benefits people who do not have the means to pay for a service.

 

Subscription models benefit those who have means over those who have need.

 

So, again, what is to stop me from setting up a competing police force that enforces different laws?

 

Do people who fail to subscribe to police protection still receive police protection and, if so, why should I bother subscribing to it? If not, does that mean a person can commit crimes against people who cannot afford it with impunity?

 

If a house catches fire and the homeowner hasn't paid for fire protection, will the fire department let it burn to the ground? I not, why bother paying for fire protection? What if it is a danger to the property of someone who has paid for fire protection?

 

 

These re serious questions that need to be dealt with if you actually want such a system, not ones you can brush off as "immature."

[Endy0816]

If my neighbor's house catches fire and he hasn't been paying for fire brigade service, are they going to wait until my house catches fire to do anything about it?

Not even hypothetical.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/t/no-pay-no-spray-firefighters-let-home-burn/

 

If you are paid up, your house will be okay though.

 

I think you really have to mandate collection for some things. Both due to natural shortsightedness and to combat coercive measures.

[Silvestru]

So to answer your bold type question: - without taxation there would be no public heath care, there would only be care for those that could pay for it.

 

What are you basing this on?

 

The private hospital I was mentioning offers free support for people with disabilities, pregnant women etc etc. They do not get any money from the taxes that we pay. Only my lousy 15$ a month and other people like me.

Please reduce the aggressive reaction to this post. I am not a flat earther and DrP, I will speculate you are talking from a place of hate not one of logic.

 

We can further discuss your ideas but please do it in a professional manner. I hope not to convince anyone of my views. I just want to freely discuss.

[swansont]

 

I really cannot speak about your country but I really pay 15$ a month for this "private healthcare". It sounds way more pretentious for you probably.

 

 

Which is only possible because you are backstopped by having national health insurance. if that went away you would be paying more, or would have very little coverage.

[EdEarl]

Estimates vary on how quickly AI and robots will take our jobs. A report on CNBC predicts that half of all jobs will be done by AI within ten years. I know the US military is actively automating. Japan is automating to be able to care for an ever aging population. Corporate automation is charging towards using robots to do more and more things. Robots don't pay taxes, thus, the trend for job loss to AI and robots affects tax revenues. I couldn't find an estimate of how many jobs have already been displaced by automation, but I believe it is happening now. One of the most advanced areas of automation is car autopilots, which are now very good and improving. When laws change to allow autopilots without a human driver, driving jobs will be lost, several million in the US and many more around the world.

 

In the not too distant future, people will not have jobs, and will be unable to pay taxes. Either AI and robots take care of everyone, or people die en masse. If half of our jobs are automated in 10 years, all of them will be automated within the next decade. Assuming that estimate wrong and it takes twice as long, full automation will occur by 2047.

[swansont]

 

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT TAXATION IS MADE TO HELP POOR PEOPLE?

 

What makes you think that this is anyone's position? That it does help them does not mean that is its sole or main reason

[Delta1212]

 

What are you basing this on?

 

The private hospital I was mentioning offers free support for people with disabilities, pregnant women etc etc. They do not get any money from the taxes that we pay. Only my lousy 15$ a month and other people like me.

Please reduce the aggressive reaction to this post. I am not a flat earther and DrP, I will speculate you are talking from a place of hate not one of logic.

 

We can further discuss your ideas but please do it in a professional manner. I hope not to convince anyone of my views. I just want to freely discuss.

About that:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Poland

 

"government is obliged to provide free health care to young children, pregnant women, disabled people and to the elderly."

 

The healthcare of anyone who has private insurance is also subsidized by the government fund.

 

So yeah, taxes are paying for your healthcare and that of those people you just mentioned and apparently you don't even realize it.

Estimates vary on how quickly AI and robots will take our jobs. A report on CNBC predicts that half of all jobs will be done by AI within ten years. I know the US military is actively automating. Japan is automating to be able to care for an ever aging population. Corporate automation is charging towards using robots to do more and more things. Robots don't pay taxes, thus, the trend for job loss to AI and robots affects tax revenues. I couldn't find an estimate of how many jobs have already been displaced by automation, but I believe it is happening now. One of the most advanced areas of automation is car autopilots, which are now very good and improving. When laws change to allow autopilots without a human driver, driving jobs will be lost, several million in the US and many more around the world.

 

In the not too distant future, people will not have jobs, and will be unable to pay taxes. Either AI and robots take care of everyone, or people die en masse. If half of our jobs are automated in 10 years, all of them will be automated within the next decade. Assuming that estimate wrong and it takes twice as long, full automation will occur by 2047.

It's not really a linear progression and you can't extrapolate like that.

 

Automation is likely to ramp up as the technology, so the rate at which jobs are being replaced will be much faster at the halfway point than at the beginning. Extrapolating from that, it should be much less than an additional 10 years for the second half to be completed.

 

On the flipside, as automation begins to saturate the job market, you're going to run into those edge case situations where, for whatever reason, it is much harder to replace live people with automation and that's going to slow things down again or potentially stop them all together before full automation is achieved.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Delta1212

[DrP]

QUOTE: "Aggressive"

 

Really? Because I am disagreeing with you I am aggressive? You are the one who tried to belittle Delta's questions and repeated your question in bold shouty CAPS. ;-) There was no hatred in anything I wrote above. Some cynicism, maybe, that you think that people without jobs are lazy and shouldn't be helped if they need the emergency services. Mainly because it looks like that is what you are saying and I do not like that "I'm alright Jack" judgmental attitude.

 

Anyway - peace out. Embrace love for your fellow man and don't begrudge the poor an extra $50 a month from your paycheck - you might need some help yourself one day and you'll be grateful for the tax people paid so that the services they pay for will be yours for free on that day and you won't get a huge bill.

[swansont]

Exactly, people don't like paying tax. That's why the system isn't working.

How is a forced subscription different, other than changing the name?

 

about this... DrP, I live in Poland...people who are able to are working here. They don't just get social benefit for being lazy.

We have the "poor people are lazy" propaganda here in the US as well. I doubt it's any more true in your country than it is here.

 

Of course we should take care of the sick and the poor. Just through a different method. Why do you guys see Taxation as the angel of poor people?

What different method? What infrastructure is in place to do this?

 

Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland have huge taxes and all over 24% VAT. But they use this tax money very efficiently, education, healthcare. Not many murders, obesity, drug problems, emigration etc etc there...

How are these tied to taxation?

 

Taxation can work but the current model applied in most countries is not encouraging progress. Tell me Swansont, how many generations ago did your family move to USA?

Three. How is this relevant?

[Silvestru]

These are actual questions about the practicality of how this system works. You can't just say "people will subscribe to it like insurance", you have to cover the details of edge cases and the like.

 

People think taxation is a benefit to the poor because it is a system whereby you can enforce payment based on means rather than need. This benefits people who do not have the means to pay for a service.

 

Subscription models benefit those who have means over those who have need.

 

So, again, what is to stop me from setting up a competing police force that enforces different laws?

 

Do people who fail to subscribe to police protection still receive police protection and, if so, why should I bother subscribing to it? If not, does that mean a person can commit crimes against people who cannot afford it with impunity?

 

If a house catches fire and the homeowner hasn't paid for fire protection, will the fire department let it burn to the ground? I not, why bother paying for fire protection? What if it is a danger to the property of someone who has paid for fire protection?

 

 

These re serious questions that need to be dealt with if you actually want such a system, not ones you can brush off as "immature."

 

 

There will still be a government. One of educated individuals with experience from many fields. A legislature is still in place.

 

You still mandatory pay for all these services like Police but it does not go through the government.

 

It is still a for of taxation but it does not go to the government. You can open a private security firm like you can in our modern society but it has to have approved/trained staff.

 

There are private prisons in USA so this concept is not new.

 

Your house will not burn, like I said you will pay for these services.

 

If you are unable to work due to old age/disability etc you will receive these benefits. The other people paying will just have to pay a bit more to make up for the number of people which cannot.

[Delta1212]

What if I don't want to pay for the services?

[Silvestru]

 

Three. How is this relevant?

 

You are a scientist. Maybe it's a speculation but a very high number of people working in the science field are foreign. You are "importing" many scientists and other high level specialization jobs from other countries which is amazing really. But this is the case because your education system does not encourage a career such a difficult area.

Immigrant Scientists Invaluable to the United States:

http://www.nfap.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/International-Educator.May-June-2015.pdf