What is consciousness (pure scientific) ?

[EdEarl]

A rough measure of consciousness may be the distance an entity perceives from itself. An earthworm has a very small or short consciousness, a reef fish has a larger or longer consciousness, a sperm whale can see using sonar for considerable distances, and can probably remember many features of the ocean floor for great distances, and they look above the water and see some dry land. Humans, of course, have the greatest consciousness, many are aware of the size of the Universe. This measure is not precise, and may or may not be useful.

[dimreepr]

Humans, of course, have the greatest consciousness, many are aware of the size of the Universe. This measure is not precise, and may or may not be useful.

 

I don't think any creature could possibly be aware of the scale of the universe, certainly not on the conscious level; it's the best guess, which links back to iNow's Ted talk.

[EdEarl]

True, we cannot have a gut feel for such distances and time; even the distance across a continent is too much for me. However, we use mathematics and instruments to observe and describe the Universe.

Edited July 20, 2017 by EdEarl

[Handy andy]

Is consciousness not just the survival instinct.

 

Can a plant be defined as being conscious if somebody moves towards it and gets stung or scratched, I think not, but it did defend itself. A worm however will recoil from a hook but does not appear to try and improve its lot, perhaps is unable to and just accepts its hooked . Monkeys can protect themselves, make and use tools as can humans are they conscious. Whales have much larger brains than humans and are curious animals however they dont make tools. What level of intelligence does one require to be considered conscious. IQ of 80 or 180 is a dog conscious because it can be trained to do tricks and work. A dog does not ask pretencious questions on consciousness as do scientists with presumably higher IQ's. Perhaps whales with bigger brains don't need to ask stupid questions.

 

There was mention above about whales not protecting themselves, and are therefore not conscious. Whales perhaps are not aware they were in danger from the whalers, and take little or no action to defend themselves on occasion. Whales can be extremely dangerous they are also very curious animals, as any one who knows about whales are aware. Most mammals will protect their young are they not therefore conscious. Some Lizards will also guard their nests, and protect their young does this make them conscious also.

 

I suspect consciousness boils down to the survival instinct and the lower brain functions most creatures have, it is not exclusive to humans or aliens from another planet.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Handy andy

[Delta1212]

How does that mesh with, say, involuntary reflexes to painful stimuli that don't even reach the brain before inducing a response as in, e.g. jerking your hand away from a hot stove. You can get a reflex action that never enters the conscious mind.

 

Given that, consciousness can't simply be "the survival instinct" as the two exist separately and independently.

[EdEarl]

Is consciousness not just the survival instinct.

 

Can a plant be defined as being conscious if somebody moves towards it and gets stung or scratched, I think not, but it did defend itself. A worm however will recoil from a hook but does not appear to try and improve its lot, perhaps is unable to and just accepts its hooked . Monkeys can protect themselves, make and use tools as can humans are they conscious. Whales have much larger brains than humans and are curious animals however they dont make tools. What level of intelligence does one require to be considered conscious. IQ of 80 or 180 is a dog conscious because it can be trained to do tricks and work. A dog does not ask pretencious questions on consciousness as do scientists with presumably higher IQ's. Perhaps whales with bigger brains don't need to ask stupid questions.

 

There was mention above about whales not protecting themselves, and are therefore not conscious. Whales perhaps are not aware they were in danger from the whalers, and take little or no action to defend themselves on occasion. Whales can be extremely dangerous they are also very curious animals, as any one who knows about whales are aware. Most mammals will protect their young are they not therefore conscious. Some Lizards will also guard their nests, and protect their young does this make them conscious also.

 

I suspect consciousness boils down to the survival instinct and the lower brain functions most creatures have, it is not exclusive to humans or aliens from another planet.

I mentioned whales, but did not say they were not conscious.

 

In fact, one can argue acacia trees are conscious of overgrazing and react to protect themselves.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12717361-200-antelope-activate-the-acacias-alarm-system/

[3blake7]

A cockroach receives data, environmental stimuli and processes it and reacts to ensure it's own survival. How it reacts is based on it's memory of past experiences and/or "evolutionary memory" such as genetically programmed instincts. Humans are more complex, they have layers like genetically programmed instincts, like hunger, thirst, the sex drive, the instinct to protect our young, the instinct to be a member of a group, all of which increases our individual and collective survival. We have the ability to ignore a baser instinct, like an emotion, if our conscious mind determines, based on our past experiences, that acting on the emotion could threaten our survival. 

I personally believe that the universe is deterministic which leads to the beliefs that there is no free-will and the future is pre-determined. If you new the position and velocity of every particle in the universe, you could predict the future with 100% accuracy. We are just the result of a billions of years of dominoes falling, cause and effect, reactions of reactions. Our biology is based on chemistry and the laws of physics, everything we experience is just particles and photons, our brain and even our conscious thoughts are the result of cause and effect. We have free-will over our emotions, well some of us, but ultimately there is not free-will, we are just machines processing data and reacting. 

What is consciousness? Consciousness is the ability to believe we are in control of our own actions, like a pinball in a pinball machine, "Weeeeee! I am in control!"

Edited July 24, 2017 by 3blake7

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

OT discussion about why this was put in speculations has been split, because really?

 

 

[Itoero]

On ‎6‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 6:36 PM, CharonY said:

I also do not see how the argument regarding number of neurons helps in this regard.

In humans neurons store knowledge and consciousness comes from the interpretation of stored knowledge. So the amount of neurons might be a guide line for the consciousness of an animal. But not all neurons can store knowledge. An African Elephant has 3 times as much neurons as humans, it contains 257 billion neurons. However, 97.5% of the neurons in the elephant brain are found in the cerebellum, this might be related to sensorimotor specializations. The larger absolute number of neurons in the human cerebral cortex (but not in the whole brain) is correlated with the superior cognitive abilities of humans compared to elephants and other large-brained mammals.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4053853/   It's those cognitive abilities that cause are superior consciousness.  The amount of neurons in the cerebral cortex of mammals is imo related to the consciousness of mammals.

An interesting fact: In humans, the Neocortex is the largest part of the Cerebral Cortex. They found that the long finned pilot whale has more neocortical neurons then humans.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex#Evolution

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Itoero said:

In humans neurons store knowledge

No, they do not. Do you disagree? If so, I will ask you to kindly please dissect a neuron and point me to the Shakespeare and the physics.

Edited July 27, 2017 by iNow

[StringJunky]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

No, they do not. Do you disagree? If so, I will ask you to kindly please dissect a neuron and point me to the Shakespeare and the physics.

You need a group of them to represent a piece of data.

Quote

After consolidation, long-term memories are stored throughout the brain as groups of neurons that are primed to fire together in the same pattern that created the original experience, and each component of a memory is stored in the brain area that initiated it (e.g. groups of neurons in the visual cortex store a sight,  http://www.human-memory.net/processes_storage.html

 

[iNow]

More specifically, one needs a group of them fire in a specific pattern in response to a specific trigger. 

[CharonY]

15 hours ago, iNow said:

More specifically, one needs a group of them fire in a specific pattern in response to a specific trigger. 

Nitpicking here, but a) typically they are cues rather than specific triggers. In recollection tasks memories of a correct work can be triggered by hearing an even partially similar sounding one. Though the opposite can also occur, when the cue overrides the recollection of the correct word. b) the patterns are somewhat flexible, in rat models recollection and decision pattern (e.g. during a maze run) may start out  indisctinct upon encountering a visible cue , and become clearer when the point is arrived at which a decision is being made. But even then the pattern may start out right and be "corrected" to the wrong decision.

 

That is to say, recollecting memory is an active process that has a lot of flexibility and is not simply stored and recalled.

Edited July 28, 2017 by CharonY

[iNow]

We definitely agree, and I appreciate the picked nit.

[Itoero]

On ‎28‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 0:28 AM, iNow said:

No, they do not. Do you disagree? If so, I will ask you to kindly please dissect a neuron and point me to the Shakespeare and the physics.

 I don't mean that one neuron stores observable knowledge. You need many connected neurons.

[iNow]

I know what you mean. I also know it's neither that simple nor that clear. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by iNow

[Itoero]

On ‎29‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 7:18 PM, iNow said:

I know what you mean. I also know it's neither that simple nor that clear. 

This is what I read."At the most basic level, memories are stored as microscopic chemical changes at the connection points between neurons in the brain."

 

[Itoero]

interesting stuff.

It is widely accepted that the synapse plays a role in the formation of memory. As neurotransmitters activate receptors across the synaptic cleft, the connection between the two neurons is strengthened when both neurons are active at the same time, as a result of the receptor's signaling mechanisms. The strength of two connected neural pathways is thought to result in the storage of information, resulting in memory. This process of synaptic strengthening is known as long-term potentiation.^[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapse#Role_in_memory

 

[iNow]

What message exactly are you trying to convey? I don't need wikipedia for a laymens version of how synapses fire and how plasticity works. What was the intent of that post and will you clarify in what way you feel it adds to our understanding of "what is consciousness?"

[Itoero]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

What message exactly are you trying to convey? I don't need wikipedia for a laymens version of how synapses fire and how plasticity works. What was the intent of that post and will you clarify in what way you feel it adds to our understanding of "what is consciousness?"

I found something interesting concerning this subject and posted it...

Consciousness arises from knowledge/information which is stored via connected neural pathways.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Itoero

[DrmDoc]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:39 AM, Itoero said:

I found something interesting concerning this subject and posted it...

Consciousness arises from knowledge/information which is stored via connected neural pathways.

The human brain and its equivalency in nature are the only means by which we may scientifically determine or define the nature of consciousness.   In the most basic terms, consciousness is merely evidence of awareness; however, human equivalent consciousness is much more complex.  Human equivalent consciousness emerges from the equivalent of a confluence of electrochemical exchanges--within and between specialized groups of neuron equivalent structures--that arise in response to stimuli as suggested by measureable or observable responses or behaviors.  Animals possess a measure of consciousness and we are fully capable of creating artificially intelligent systems capable of mimicking human consciousness.  Therefore, consciousness isn't quiet an exclusive or elusive quality as some of us may believe.  If your OP regards the quality of consciousness that defines the separate sentient nature of humanity, there's really nothing unique about that nature because we can so readily observe aspects of it in other animals and reproduce it artificially.  In human context, consciousness emerges from the functional matrix we call mind.  Mind, as I've observed from study of brain function, is the environment of cognitive activity within the brain that arises from brain function.  I've also observed that a mind can be quantified as evident by a brain's capacity to integrate separate and distinct sensory information through a process that produces behaviors independent of instinct.  Essentially, a mind is evinces by proactive rather than reactive behaviors and enables an organism's ability to override its instinctive or preprogramed responses to stimuli.