The Wise and God

[martillo]

What do you think about the following hypothetical dialog?

THE WISE AND GOD

_ Wise, about life… Too much bad things happen…


_ Seems this is a wrong kind of life. Our World seems to be fortuitous. Is not as it was supposed a World and life would be.


_ Wise, God created the Universe, how would exist something wrong?


_ Seems there was a problem in the Creation of the Universe which would have badly affected everything even God someway. The things are not as they should be.


_ But God would have all power to solve anything... What would be missing to solve the things?


_ Nobody knows God's situation. There's no way to communicate with God. Who knows...


_ Nothing that could be done about...


_ One thing is true, if there is a God with a creation he must have a way to perceive it. May be through our own eyes and ears. So God could observe us and may be someone could imagine something useful for God to solve it all. That’s what I think... But maybe is just a matter of time...

 

 

Source: blog url removed by moderator
Is not related to any religious concept of God but to Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism).

Edited July 18, 2017 by Phi for All
no advertising, please

[koti]

I think the dialog contains no coherent, phylosophical issues to discuss besides "God works in misterious ways" - like bone cancer in children. God either doesn't exist or is a psychotic asshole. Thats about all I got from the dialog.

[martillo]

Bad misunderstanding. Poor reading. Nowhere it is being justified something bad in life as a mysterious act of God. On the contrary is brought the new proposition of a God in trouble by some problem happening at the times of the creation of the Universe and is opened the possibility for someone to imagine something that helping the troubled God would change the future.

Edited July 18, 2017 by martillo

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Starting a thread to advertise your blog is against the rules you agreed to when you joined. Since you included the excerpt and the wiki reference, I'll leave the thread open, but no more linking to promote your site.

 

You can put a link in your signature to a non-commercial site, but don't start threads about it.

[zapatos]

What do you think about the following hypothetical dialog?

Sounds like something that would be used as a discussion aid in a Bible class for children.

Edited July 18, 2017 by zapatos

[Strange]

Bad misunderstanding. Poor reading.

 

 

Or poor writing.

[martillo]

Sounds like something that would be used as a discussion aid in a Bible class for children.

 

Nothing to do with Bible. As it is said in the first post is related to DEISM not to any theism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

[dimreepr]

What do you think about the following hypothetical dialog?

 

Source: blog url removed by moderator

Is not related to any religious concept of God but to Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism).

 

What if the wise use god?

[martillo]

 

What if the wise use god?

 

I couldn't get your point.

[dimreepr]

 

I couldn't get your point.

 

God doesn't have to exist for a wise man to use it as a metaphor, for teaching.

[zapatos]

Nothing to do with Bible. As it is said in the first post is related to DEISM not to any theism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

You asked me what I thought and I told you.

[martillo]

You asked me what I thought and I told you.

 

Yes, thanks for your comment. I just clarified my approach.

[zapatos]

Yes, thanks for your comment. I just clarified my approach.

Your approach to what? Perhaps you could clarify for me what it is exactly that you wish to discuss.

[martillo]

Your approach to what? Perhaps you could clarify for me what it is exactly that you wish to discuss.

 

You know, I have that problem in my mind, don't have a solution at the time, found a way to present it in the form of a hypothetical dialog and I just want other's opinions with the aim to find a way to face it someway. May be I will not find anything towards a valid answer to it but for me is the cause of all problems of life since the origins of the times. I mean, some ones believe to find the solution to life's problems in politics, other in religion, other looking for health cures, other in robotics but for me they are all endless ways because the real problem is a Universe's physics problem and the solution could come with Metaphysics only. Better treatment of this in another page:

A PHYSICS' FLAW

From my point of view the Physics System of the Universe running all the Physics' Laws of the Universe seems to have some "flaw".

Some physics-parameters could have a wrong real running value, some physical things could not be exactly the way they should be and the Universe could be in a not ideal state. Nature could be different.

For example too energetic photons are present which can "break" organic molecules causing mutations, cancer, cells' deterioration, aging and death. Note that any atom can accumulate the energy of several successive lower energetic photons and spontaneously emit a much higher energetic photon. Seems the upper limit in the photons’ energy is too high and too harmful photons are allowed. Evidence is found in the amount of information about the harmful ultra-violet effects. If the photons' spectrum would have a lower limit just in the "deep blue" color of light may be a more ideal kind of life could exist.

Other physics-parameters' values could also be different and a totally different kind of life could be possible.

Hope would exist if some "Superior Intelligence" would exist, responsible for the Universe Physics System and capable to fix it. But it and its systems could also have been affected by their own Physics' problems and so not being able to think and work properly...

 

Our Universe seems to have not born perfect. Something could have gone wrong in its creation.

The problems/flaws would be solved/fixed someday.

May be we, all humans at Earth with all of our developed knowledge, technology and our imagination, could be helping someway just following our intuition. Everything could be important.

 

 

That's what makes sense to me although with the lack of some proofs.

That's my faith.

Seems may be just the first step in a long way trip... It's what I have...

[Phi for All]

Seems may be just the first step in a long way trip... It's what I have...

 

Free advice. Stop learning just the top layer of science and trying to blend it with your faith. Science is all about the natural world, and religion is about the supernatural. Learning bits of both and blending them leads to complete confusion (for example, you claim the universe is in an ideal state, then later claim a superior intelligence could fix it so it works properly).

 

If you want to learn about science, you need to peel the whole onion. It's all connected. You can keep the religion if you wish, just keep it separate.

[martillo]

 

Free advice. Stop learning just the top layer of science and trying to blend it with your faith. Science is all about the natural world, and religion is about the supernatural. Learning bits of both and blending them leads to complete confusion (for example, you claim the universe is in an ideal state, then later claim a superior intelligence could fix it so it works properly).

 

If you want to learn about science, you need to peel the whole onion. It's all connected. You can keep the religion if you wish, just keep it separate.

 

I didn't say the Universe is in an ideal state, nowhere, on the contrary everywhere it is said it is not. Thanks for the advice. I see the Physics Science and Religion as two big mountains and in the middle a valley to transit...

[Phi for All]

I didn't say the Universe is in an ideal state, nowhere, on the contrary everywhere it is said it is not. Thanks for the advice. I see the Physics Science and Religion as two big mountains and in the middle a valley to transit...

 

Not a great analogy, since by taking the valley you avoid both mountains.

 

Better to think of these varying methods of explanation as tools. When you're looking for a natural explanation, science is the biggest help. If you need something spiritual/supernatural, religion will definitely be a better choice.

 

Now the question is how much science you'll learn so natural explanations increase your knowledge of the real world.

[martillo]

 

Not a great analogy, since by taking the valley you avoid both mountains.

 

Better to think of these varying methods of explanation as tools. When you're looking for a natural explanation, science is the biggest help. If you need something spiritual/supernatural, religion will definitely be a better choice.

 

Now the question is how much science you'll learn so natural explanations increase your knowledge of the real world.

 

But think that while transiting the valley some climbs can be made on any of the mountains as needed or desired...

Edited July 18, 2017 by martillo

[Manticore]

Mysterious echoing voice: "I am GOD."

Wise Man: "Fuck off."

[Phi for All]

But think that while transiting the valley some climbs can be made on any of the mountains as needed or desired...

 

This assumes both mountains have equal value, which misunderstands your needs and exaggerates your desires.

[dimreepr]

Mysterious echoing voice: "I am GOD."

 

Surely a wise man/woman would say "I'll put the kettle on, come in and tell me all about it."

[DrP]

They might say that dim.... unless they were Mormans or JWs... then the original response would be quite valid. ;-)

 

*Disclaimer - I have actually met some nice JWs and some nice morons too, the above reply was for humour value only*

[dimreepr]

They might say that dim.... unless they were Mormans or JWs... then the original response would be quite valid. ;-)

 

*Disclaimer - I have actually met some nice JWs and some nice morons too, the above reply was for humour value only*

 

You've never met my gran then...

Jokes aside, surely a wise person asks why, before dismissing.

[martillo]

 

This assumes both mountains have equal value, which misunderstands your needs and exaggerates your desires.

 

I agree. I would say both mountains are not of the same nature. One is a mountain of human's knowledge the other a mountain of his unreasonable beliefs. Personally I prefer to walk on the side of the first one and I would take only a little bit on the other one but that is my option, others would take different paths. I can say you that what I would take as valid from the religious one is just about considering the existence of some "Superior Intelligence" creating the Universe what actually belongs to what is known as "Deism" and is not religious but a rational tentative of asume the existence of some kind of "God" in the Universe something not being currently considered in Science. Actually I don't understand well why Science does not mantain the possibility of some creator God open. The other thing I would consider is about the notion that our world and life are not the ideal ones that should be. For instance the Bible talks about the appearence of a "Devil" at early times seducing mankind and that would be the cause of the disappearence of an initial Paradise. I don't believe in Devils nor that human beings could be responsible for that but do believe in an initial ideal state of things and something else causing the fall into a non ideal state at Universal scale. Particularly I believe that the physics parameters values are not the ideal ones and life exist adapted to them as it can in contrary to the notion of both perfectly tunned as most scientific documentals transmit to us. I treat this point of view a Little more at my "Physics flaw" page:

 

A PHYSICS' FLAW

 

From my point of view the Physics System of the Universe running all the Physics' Laws of the Universe seems to have some "flaw".

Some physics-parameters could have a wrong real running value, some physical things could not be exactly the way they should be and the Universe could be in a not ideal state. Nature could be different.

For example too energetic photons are present which can "break" organic molecules causing mutations, cancer, cells' deterioration, aging and death. Note that any atom can accumulate the energy of several successive lower energetic photons and spontaneously emit a much higher energetic photon. Seems the upper limit in the photons’ energy is too high and too harmful photons are allowed. Evidence is found in the amount of information about the harmful ultra-violet effects. If the photons' spectrum would have a lower limit just in the "deep blue" color of light may be a more ideal kind of life could exist.

Other physics-parameters' values could also be different and a totally different kind of life could be possible.

Hope would exist if some "Superior Intelligence" would exist, responsible for the Universe Physics System and capable to fix it. But it and its systems could also have been affected by their own Physics' problems and so not being able to think and work properly...

 

Our Universe seems to have not born perfect. Something could have gone wrong in its creation.

The problems/flaws would be solved/fixed someday.

May be we, all humans at Earth with all of our developed knowledge, technology and our imagination, could be helping someway just following our intuition. Everything could be important.

 

 

That's what makes sense to me although with the lack of some proofs.

That's my faith.

Edited July 19, 2017 by martillo

[Phi for All]

I don't like your Physics Flaw argument at all. From what we observe in reality, the physical laws hold sway everywhere. Sure, we don't know it for sure, we haven't seen everywhere, but why should we invest energy in your "it could be different" argument when there is zero evidence? Every bit of evidence we've come across so far says physics is the same. The default position should be "it's the same everywhere until we observe differently".