Machismo still influences women in the world

[shyynore]

Although the feminist movement initiated in the 1960s the world is still chauvinist. Many women are independent, they study and work. But many do not. Many women do not let that the will of man prevail. But many leave. Many women are intelligent and insightful. But many are foolish. Some examples. In some countries the men like women with large breasts, the women put silicone. In other the men like women with big butt, the women stay with big butt. In many home sex videos, women show their face, but the men do not, because men do not want to appear? (chauvinism). Porn movies with scenes of abuse (woman object). Etc. Patriarchy and boss, many women still think so. Machismo still influences women in the world.

[Lord Antares]

2 hours ago, shyynore said:

Many women are independent, they study and work. But many do not. 

And? Are you implying that all of them want to study and work? I know a great deal of women who are more than fine with not working. Generally speaking, those who want to study will study and those who won't will prefer a man who works. Is there a problem with that? I know many intelligent women; all of them academically more successful than myself. These kinds of women will generally finish college and get a good joob. I see nothing but choice there.

2 hours ago, shyynore said:

Some examples. In some countries the men like women with large breasts, the women put silicone. In other the men like women with big butt, the women stay with big butt

So? Is it men's fault that they do so? Are they forced to do it? What percentage of women do that?

And what about the men who work out and build their body to impress women? Are men oppressed as well then? Women like men like that and they make sure to achieve that, so they are ''forced'' to do it just the same as the women who get silicone implants, no?

2 hours ago, shyynore said:

In many home sex videos, women show their face, but the men do not, because men do not want to appear? (chauvinism).

You have got the reason for that incredibly wrong. It is because the majority of porn viewers are male. Men, generally speaking, don't care and probably don't want to look at a guy's face during a video. It's completely foolish to say that men's faces are ''hidden'' because of ''chauvinism''. Either way, it's not true for the majority of videos anyway.

2 hours ago, shyynore said:

 Etc. Patriarchy and boss, many women still think so. 
 

In 2017., no.

2 hours ago, shyynore said:

Machismo still influences women in the world.

You are aware, are you not, that a great number of women prefer ''macho'' men? They are naturally drawn to them for safety reasons. Of course, less so than in nature, but this is 100% true in nature. So you're just telling women what to like.

All I see is frustration here. Do you have any arguments? 
I keep seing women shunning other women for doing things they don't like, such as not getting a degree or job, getting breast implants etc. It is like you are completely unaware that there are women who prefer that. All you are trying to do is force women to be a certain way, which is funnily ironic, given the context of the post.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lord Antares

[imatfaal]

18 hours ago, shyynore said:

Although the feminist movement initiated in the 1960s the world is still chauvinist. Many women are independent, they study and work. But many do not. Many women do not let that the will of man prevail. But many leave. Many women are intelligent and insightful. But many are foolish. Some examples. In some countries the men like women with large breasts, the women put silicone. In other the men like women with big butt, the women stay with big butt. In many home sex videos, women show their face, but the men do not, because men do not want to appear? (chauvinism). Porn movies with scenes of abuse (woman object). Etc. Patriarchy and boss, many women still think so. Machismo still influences women in the world.
 

4

First point - the suffragette movement started about 100 years before then.  I think there are more concrete and well-researched examples than yours - but unfortunately, most of them still hold true.  I have seen sexism on the rise and equality on the fall in my lifetime - which I must admit I would never have expected when I was younger.  You must be careful not to remove agency from women for their own choices as not everything is dictated - but more importantly to ignore societal, cutural, and religious pressures to conform is part of the problem.  I would hesitate to base many conclusions on sexual predilections - they are slippery and hard to pin down (innuendo intended).  If you want a well researched, current, and crucial problem look at women's control over their own fertility around the world - and in how many, supposedly forward thinking democracies, these rights to self-determination are being eroded. 

[imatfaal]

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

And? Are you implying that all of them want to study and work? I know a great deal of women who are more than fine with not working. Generally speaking, those who want to study will study and those who won't will prefer a man who works. Is there a problem with that? I know many intelligent women; all of them academically more successful than myself. These kinds of women will generally finish college and get a good joob. I see nothing but choice there....

2

If you see nothing but choice then you, unwittingly, are part of the problem.  Far too many countries either have no protection (or do not enforce current laws) for women in the work arena.  Women are asked if they are going to have children, how they will cope with childcare, even whether they are in a relationship when they are applying for jobs, seeking promotion, or apparently within periodic review processes.  This is now illegal in the EU - but it still goes on.  I have seen it happening in an underhand manner within the supposedly  "right-on" academe and I know it continues in all manners of business.

 

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

...So? Is it men's fault that they do so? Are they forced to do it? What percentage of women do that?

And what about the men who work out and build their body to impress women? Are men oppressed as well then? Women like men like that and they make sure to achieve that, so they are ''forced'' to do it just the same as the women who get silicone implants, no?...

 

Take a look at those who are presented as role-models, celebrities, personalities etc.  it is very clear that women are expected to maintain a youthful (for film/tv one might say childlike) appearance whereas men can grow old.  Very few people are "forced" into surgery etc - but if cultural taboos stop you working (or lower your earning potential) then there is definite duress. There is also a huge amount of pressure placed on young girls to conform to unnatural body shapes with negative medical consequences from a ridiculously young age - whereas the counterpart pressure on boys is both minuscule in magnitude and towards a healthy and natural fitness

 

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

...You have got the reason for that incredibly wrong. It is because the majority of porn viewers are male. Men, generally speaking, don't care and probably don't want to look at a guy's face during a video. It's completely foolish to say that men's faces are ''hidden'' because of ''chauvinism''. Either way, it's not true for the majority of videos anyway...

 

Not sure how you can say that with any certainty other than as a personal opinion - I would and have said the same about the OP's opposing view

 

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

...In 2017., no....

 

The "leader of free world" (definition now under review) boasts about grabbing women by the pussy - so in 2017- yes

 

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

...You are aware, are you not, that a great number of women prefer ''macho'' men? They are naturally drawn to them for safety reasons. Of course, less so than in nature, but this is 100% true in nature. So you're just telling women what to like....

1

And the argument is nothing to do with that - it is that men's attitudes and society's acceptance of machismo forces/pressurizes/cajoles women into making decisions which otherwise they would eschew. 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

...All I see is frustration here. Do you have any arguments? 
I keep seing women shunning other women for doing things they don't like, such as not getting a degree or job, getting breast implants etc. It is like you are completely unaware that there are women who prefer that. All you are trying to do is force women to be a certain way, which is funnily ironic, given the context of the post.

1

So either there is no problem or if there is it is the woman's choice.  And alluding to frustration really is a bit off - it is ad hominem as it implies that the OP's arguments are worthless as they are founded in their own frustration. 

[swansont]

4 minutes ago, imatfaal said:

If you see nothing but choice then you, unwittingly, are part of the problem.  Far too many countries either have no protection (or do not enforce current laws) for women in the work arena.  Women are asked if they are going to have children, how they will cope with childcare, even whether they are in a relationship when they are applying for jobs, seeking promotion, or apparently within periodic review processes.  This is now illegal in the EU - but it still goes on.  I have seen it happening in an underhand manner within the supposedly  "right-on" academe and I know it continues in all manners of business. 

Not to mention that (almost?) everything becomes harder for a single parent to manage if she is paid less than her male counterpart.

[imatfaal]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not to mention that (almost?) everything becomes harder for a single parent to manage if she is paid less than her male counterpart.

Indeed - the natural (?) tendency, more properly the systemic sexism, which means that women are paid less for the same job as men is invidious and dangerous.  What amazes me is the spread of this behaviour amongst those who I would consider unlikely to discriminate and who would also consider themselves immune.  I should find a link for the "lab assistant" placement questionnaire study which beggared belief

[StringJunky]

25 minutes ago, imatfaal said:

 

Take a look at those who are presented as role-models, celebrities, personalities etc.  it is very clear that women are expected to maintain a youthful (for film/tv one might say childlike) appearance whereas men can grow old.  Very few people are "forced" into surgery etc - but if cultural taboos stop you working (or lower your earning potential) then there is definite duress. There is also a huge amount of pressure placed on young girls to conform to unnatural body shapes with negative medical consequences from a ridiculously young age - whereas the counterpart pressure on boys is both minuscule in magnitude and towards a healthy and natural fitness

 

The pressure on contemporary adolescent boys to conform  to certain standard looks is as intense now now as it is for girls. The time spent grooming and stressing about appearance and what they wear is pretty much equal from what I've seen in the last few years. I know parents that buy fake 'name' clothes from China for their children so that they  can conform to their peers expectations.

[imatfaal]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The pressure on contemporary adolescent boys to conform  to certain standard looks is as intense now now as it is for girls. The time spent grooming and stressing about appearance and what they wear is pretty much equal from what I've seen in the last few years. I know parents that buy fake 'name' clothes from China for their children so that they  can conform to their peers expectations.

No; it really is not.  It is almost certainly stronger on boys than when you or I grew up - but then so is the pressure on girls; additionally, so is the ability of both sexes to do so due to greater disposable income.  More importantly - Pressure to conform is also very different than the pressure to attain an impossible and unheathy bodytype.  

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, imatfaal said:

No; it really is not.  It is almost certainly stronger on boys than when you or I grew up - but then so is the pressure on girls; additionally, so is the ability of both sexes to do so due to greater disposable income.  More importantly - Pressure to conform is also very different than the pressure to attain an impossible and unheathy bodytype.  

 I think,  the worst culprits are their own female peers in the appearance department..

[Lord Antares]

1 hour ago, imatfaal said:

Far too many countries either have no protection (or do not enforce current laws) for women in the work arena.  Women are asked if they are going to have children, how they will cope with childcare, even whether they are in a relationship when they are applying for jobs, seeking promotion, or apparently within periodic review processes.

I didn't say there is complete equality everywhere. But inequality certainly isn't the standard anymore. What about the men being forced to do all the dirtiest, most dangerous and hardest jobs? Why is the percentage of men in those jobs close to 100? And why do I remember, when applying for student jobs, ~50% of jobs not being available to me specifically because they sought women? Presenters, waitresses, hostesses, receptioners, you name it. And they were the best paid jobs too. Why did my female friends earn so much more money than me for a significantly shorter time because those jobs were not available to me? I don't care, but I want to point out how everyone focuses on the cons of being a woman, rather than pros. No one cares when men are being mistreated in some cases.

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Take a look at those who are presented as role-models, celebrities, personalities etc.  it is very clear that women are expected to maintain a youthful (for film/tv one might say childlike) appearance whereas men can grow old. 

Take a look at male actors and role models. How many of those which are being pushed as handsome are not well built? Name one. How many who act in romantic movies are ugly? But it is irrelevant as long as it's also women who are ''pressured''.

Also, it is a conscious decision of a woman to look a certain way. I've been told by some of my female friends that they want to look sexy because they like male attention. No one on earth is forcing them to do that. When has a woman been rejected because she hasn't go silicone implants? The majority of them get by just fine without them.

However, there IS a discrepancy between ''attractive'' and ''unattractive'' women. I completely agree that life is, generally speaking, much better for attractive ones. But that's a different issue alltogether. I would rate the quality of life by ease with which they can life it in descending order like this:

1) good looking woman
2) good looking/wealthy man
3) ugly man
4) ugly woman

Keep in mind that ''ugly'' and ''good looking'' are mock terms used loosely to match the average person's opinion.

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Not sure how you can say that with any certainty other than as a personal opinion - I would and have said the same about the OP's opposing view

And how can she say her wild assertion with any certainty other than a personal opinion? It's fairly obvious but of course, I don't have proof for you. It's like asking why blowjobs are much more frequent in porn than the female counterpart. Do I really need solid evidence to say that it's because it's made for a man's enjoyment?

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The "leader of free world" (definition now under review) boasts about grabbing women by the pussy - so in 2017- yes

It's not the reason he got elected, though. It was simply because of a lack of a better candidate. If there was even a half-normal, averagely likeable candidate, I assure you they would have won. It's like if we had to choose between two candidates, one of them a thief and the other a child rapist and murderer, and we chose the former and everyone who voted got accused of supporting theft.

If I lived in the US and voted for Trump and got accussed of being a mysoginist or rapist or whatever, I would take that as an unprovoked insult.

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So either there is no problem or if there is it is the woman's choice.

What is the problem in women willfully choosing to get breast implants? Are you shunning them for making a choice for their body? You may have a point when all women are forced to get breast implants.

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And alluding to frustration really is a bit off - it is ad hominem as it implies that the OP's arguments are worthless as they are founded in their own frustration. 

They are not bad BECAUSE they are founded in her own frustration. They are bad for being assertive, unelaborate and unsupported.

1 hour ago, imatfaal said:

And the argument is nothing to do with that - it is that men's attitudes and society's acceptance of machismo forces/pressurizes/cajoles women into making decisions which otherwise they would eschew.

I guess I misenterpreted machismo then. My point is, there are inequalities for both genders. Women are expected to spend a lot of time on applying makeup and stuff, which sucks. Men are expected to be strong and get in fights for their women where needed and pay for their stuff, which doesn't suck, because who gives a fuck about men, right? As long as it's the women's issues we are focusing on.

[Evgenia]

Machism, feminism,equality of genders - all are very different things.

For example,agender trend is so much popular now, we have 17 mln links in net about "agender fashion". And agender is not unisex. It's a trend to look for all nice things about appearence of both genders but without being fixed as certain one.

Body positive, plus size models, special dating sites for users who are sexually attracted to fat people...These things demonstrate we have some freedom to be happy with ourselves.

But yes, i admit. There is none of equality or respect for my personality and rights as a woman in my own life. Still

[swansont]

33 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

I didn't say there is complete equality everywhere. But inequality certainly isn't the standard anymore. What about the men being forced to do all the dirtiest, most dangerous and hardest jobs? Why is the percentage of men in those jobs close to 100? And why do I remember, when applying for student jobs, ~50% of jobs not being available to me specifically because they sought women? Presenters, waitresses, hostesses, receptioners, you name it. And they were the best paid jobs too. Why did my female friends earn so much more money than me for a significantly shorter time because those jobs were not available to me? I don't care, but I want to point out how everyone focuses on the cons of being a woman, rather than pros. No one cares when men are being mistreated in some cases. 

And who was in charge of making the decisions regarding these jobs? (and waitressing as a best-paying job? really?)

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Take a look at male actors and role models. How many of those which are being pushed as handsome are not well built? Name one. How many who act in romantic movies are ugly? But it is irrelevant as long as it's also women who are ''pressured''.

 

Male actors tend to be much better paid than female actors (it's still noteworthy when there is pay equality. When they rebooted The X-Files recently, they offered to pay Gillian Anderson half of what they offered Duchovney, but she held out). Male actors are routinely paired with much younger women in romantic matchups.

Men can be kinda goofy-looking and still be lead actors. Women? Not so much.

I don't think you want to point to the acting profession as an example of equality, or how "tough" the men have it.