bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 The problem i think is some fundamentalist have no knowledge of proper history of the religion or they don't emphasize it enough when talking about Islam .Islam is not always about prophet Mohamed .It is about a lot more prophets like Jesus , Noah , etc Those are all the prophets of God , according to God himself . Then why this importance of only history that dates back to 1400 years ago . As in like there was no God and Prophets before 1400 years ago .? That is where the problem lies when it comes to fundamentalism
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: Then we're just talking past each other in a dead end tangent. OK I asked what Islam has done to deserve respect. Not the people who follow Islam, nor any other faith or its followers. Unless you are answering that question then you are going off at a tangent. So, once again. What Islam has done to deserve respect? 1
bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 I don't think god according to us is a peace loving robot or a computer like creature programmed for only peace and love .There must be lot more happening in it .I mean God only capable of one emotion that is peace and love . God being god must be capable of a lot more emotions than that .Otherwise God cannot be God .
dimreepr Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: What Islam has done to deserve respect? 1 Well, it did spread far and wide since its inception (when it was understood) overturning deep seated cultural beliefs with persuasion rather than force.
dimreepr Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, bimbo36 said: I don't think god according to us is a peace loving robot or a computer like creature programmed for only peace and love .There must be lot more happening in it .I mean God only capable of one emotion that is peace and love . God being god must be capable of a lot more emotions than that .Otherwise God cannot be God . What's God got to do with it?
bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 32 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: OK I asked what Islam has done to deserve respect. Not the people who follow Islam, nor any other faith or its followers. Unless you are answering that question then you are going off at a tangent. So, once again. What Islam has done to deserve respect? Islam and Quran has give us a lot of history about the pyramids , Egypt , pharaohs , India , Israel ...about prophets like Jesus , Noah etc- Lots of peaceful words , lots of description about GOD , A lot of knowledge about the cosmos ... etc
Itoero Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: No, it's politics and culture. Why are you so determined to find the bad in religion? I know you've denied it in the past but it shows, at least, a degree of hate and as I said you'll be diminished by it. Everybody deserves respect until they give you a reason not to, and blaming religion for the sins of politicians is not a reason not to. Stop making these assumptions. A holy book like the Quran is a way to preserve political and cultural idea's from a certain class from a long time ago. It's normal it gives problems.
bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) The book was revealed to an illiterate Mohamed through Gabriel .Do you even know that Itoero ? Edited August 6, 2017 by bimbo36
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, bimbo36 said: Islam and Quran has give us a lot of history about the pyramids , Egypt , pharaohs , India , Israel ...about prophets like Jesus , Noah etc- Lots of peaceful words , lots of description about GOD , A lot of knowledge about the cosmos ... etc No. They don't. Just to pick the most obviously scientific one. The Quran tells us nothing about the cosmos a except a few things known to be false. (Hint: it wasn't made in 6 days). There are other books that tell us about old cultures. Many of them avoid the biases inherent in a religious text. So, outside of the realms of fantasy and made-up stuff, What Islam has done to deserve respect? 1
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Just now, bimbo36 said: The book was reveled to an illiterate Mohamed through Gabriel Says who? Any independent corroboration? If you can say it without needing evidence, I can discount it without needing any.
bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: No. They don't. Just to pick the most obviously scientific one. The Quran tells us nothing about the cosmos a except a few things known to be false. (Hint: it wasn't made in 6 days). There are other books that tell us about old cultures. Many of them avoid the biases inherent in a religious text. So, outside of the realms of fantasy and made-up stuff, What Islam has done to deserve respect? "Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2:164) "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We split them apart? And We made from water every living thing…" (21:30). "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33). "It is not permitted for the sun to catch up to the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. Each just swims along in its own orbit" (36:40). "He created the heavens and the earth in true proportions. He makes the night overlap the day, and the day overlap the night. He has subjected the sun and the moon to His law; each one follows a course for a time appointed..." (39:5). "The sun and the moon follow courses exactly computed" (55:5). -1
Itoero Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, bimbo36 said: The book was revealed to an illiterate Mohamed through Gabriel .Do you even know that Itoero ? I know that's how the story goes... The 96th chapter of the Quran, the Clot, is believed by Muslims to have been the first chapter revealed by Gabriel to Muhammad.
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Just now, bimbo36 said: "Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2:164) "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We split them apart? And We made from water every living thing…" (21:30). "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33). "It is not permitted for the sun to catch up to the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. Each just swims along in its own orbit" (36:40). "He created the heavens and the earth in true proportions. He makes the night overlap the day, and the day overlap the night. He has subjected the sun and the moon to His law; each one follows a course for a time appointed..." (39:5). "The sun and the moon follow courses exactly computed" (55:5). Do you realise that all that has been cited before- and every bit of it has been discredited as "science"? So, for example, "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together" What does "heavens" mean? " We made from water every living thing…" (21:30)." It's the bits that are not water that do all the living. " All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (" There's nothing to swim in. Swimming implies a deliberate desire to get from one place to another. And so on. Please don't waste time rehashing arguments that have already been lost. There really is nothing in any scripture that counts as evidence. 2
dimreepr Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 59 minutes ago, Itoero said: Stop making these assumptions. Why not, you do... 1 hour ago, Itoero said: A holy book like the Quran is a way to preserve political and cultural idea's from a certain class from a long time ago. It's normal it gives problems. And that's your assumption...
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, dimreepr said: And that's your assumption... re "A holy book like the Quran is a way to preserve political and cultural idea's from a certain class from a long time ago" It's a book- it has ideas written down. That's done to preserve them. The ideas in the book are, or at least contain, cultural and political ideas. It came from a member of the warrior class in the case under discussion- but in general, the works come from a fairly well defined class (the Bishops in the council of Nicea, for example). So, the only assumption is that scripture is from a long time ago- well, OK some isn't . The book of Mormon is quite recent, and that of the flying spaghetti monster is younger still. That's not really going to affect the content of this thread.
dimreepr Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 1 minute ago, John Cuthber said: re "A holy book like the Quran is a way to preserve political and cultural idea's from a certain class from a long time ago" It's a book- it has ideas written down. That's done to preserve them. 1 Much like science text books, which are out of date almost as soon as they're written; that fact takes nothing from its intent or correctness at the time of print.
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Much like science text books, which are out of date almost as soon as they're written; The difference is that science books get updated. Islam hasn't been, in spite of the many discoveries made since it was written. - that rather undermines it's respectability as a source of information. Edited August 6, 2017 by John Cuthber
JohnDoeLS Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) Sure. The moment the reports of terrorism stops, Sharia laws stopped being taken so seriously, the sexism of woman ceases, and when it's some other radicals blowing things up. The reason it's not respected is mostly due to the terrorism thing. I personally think Islam has some undesirable elements in it, and just like the Bible but what makes Islam more, in a sense, radical is that Christians don't really believe eating shellfish is betraying the command of God or stealing equals death and working on the day of Sabbath deserves a brutal punishment. It's just a little side notes in the book that no one really cares about, because Jesus, with all the "turn the other cheeks", and getting crucified altruism bits overshadows all those things as compared to the Islamic Prophet being a conqueror, one just seems a little more...intense. Edited August 6, 2017 by JohnDoeLS 1
John Cuthber Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnDoeLS said: ...no one really cares about, because Jesus, with all the "turn the other cheeks", ... At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods, you need to read the Bible: Matthew 5:17 et seq. But this isn't the place for saying that "religion A is better then religion B because..." so please don't respond here
JohnDoeLS Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods, you need to read the Bible: Matthew 5:17 et seq. But this isn't the place for saying that "religion A is better then religion B because..." so please don't respond here I wouldn't say that, I think Christianity is just as regressive as Islam. It's just that with the presumably more secular and peaceful leaning mindset, there is more respect for Christianity than Islam, although I know that both can be interpreted in a hideous way, one lean towards that a little more. Edited August 6, 2017 by JohnDoeLS 1
bimbo36 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods, you need to read the Bible: Matthew 5:17 et seq. But this isn't the place for saying that "religion A is better then religion B because..." so please don't respond here "If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66). "Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
imatfaal Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 ! Moderator Note OK - Last chance. I asked everyone to be nice and stick to the topic, I asked for no more proselytizing and quoting of bare verses from books. And now we are way off topic and we are still getting verses of a holy book quoted. On topic from now on. 1
Itoero Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 19 hours ago, dimreepr said: I know you've denied it in the past but it shows, at least, a degree of hate and as I said you'll be diminished by it. These are the assumptions you should stop with.
swansont Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 19 hours ago, John Cuthber said: OK I asked what Islam has done to deserve respect. Not the people who follow Islam, nor any other faith or its followers. Unless you are answering that question then you are going off at a tangent. So, once again. What Islam has done to deserve respect? What has any religion done to earn respect? 1
swansont Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 14 hours ago, JohnDoeLS said: I wouldn't say that, I think Christianity is just as regressive as Islam. It's just that with the presumably more secular and peaceful leaning mindset, there is more respect for Christianity than Islam, although I know that both can be interpreted in a hideous way, one lean towards that a little more. Is that because of the religion, or because of the culture in which the religion resides?
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