Do you think the religion of Islam will ever be respected in a planet where the majority of people are non-Muslims?

[JohnDoeLS]

33 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

People have used the argument that one culture is lesser than another since the stone age to justify war or make demands on others. In hindsight history never views the culture claiming superiority well. Your position that we (Western World) should reject a culture as regressive historically has been viewed poorly time and time again. We can support peace and cooperation without demagoguing religion. 

A culture with sharia law that oppresses women, an unnecessary heavy punishment for minor crimes is objectively regressive, things like killing gays and atheists. Reprehensible facets like this shouldn't be tolerated, this shouldn't even be argued. No one is proposing to start a war over it, nor is anyone saying this should justify anything more than a rejection, which is nothing more than that all of these should not happen in progressive places, anyone can come to progressive countries as long as they share the same progressive value as those countries. On a side note, I don't live in the United States, I happen to live in Singapore, a multi-cultural society and I have a few Muslim friends who are nice and chill people. I know for a fact that the factor for violence cannot be solely put on religion but there is, however, a culture in the Middle East that pushes the violence and regression in Islam constantly and no one really has a good solution to solve it. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by JohnDoeLS

[swansont]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Absolutely not, I have not implied that culture and religious doctrine are the same thing. One being the result of the other does not mean that they are the same thing. You acuse me of using a fallacy yet you yourself are using a classic strawman.

My interpretation of what you said is that a Venn diagram would have them as perfectly overlapping. Or is it that culture is only a subset of the religion?

[swansont]

1 minute ago, JohnDoeLS said:

A culture with sharia law that oppresses women, an unnecessary heavy punishment for minor crimes is objectively regressive, things like killing gays and atheists.  

You haven't narrowed it down to Islam with this statement.

[koti]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

My interpretation of what you said is that a Venn diagram would have them as perfectly overlapping. Or is it that culture is only a subset of the religion?

Your interpretation is fundamentally wrong. An act of a religious regime causing cultural consequences cannot be interpreted by visualising it as a venn diagram where the two are overlapping partly or completely. Its just wrong. 

[JohnDoeLS]

8 minutes ago, swansont said:

You haven't narrowed it down to Islam with this statement.

What do you mean? 

[Ten oz]

7 minutes ago, JohnDoeLS said:

A culture with sharia law that oppresses women, an unnecessary heavy punishment for minor crimes is objectively regressive, things like killing gays and atheists. Reprehensible facets like this shouldn't be tolerated, this shouldn't even be argued. No one is proposing to start a war over it, nor is anyone saying this should justify anything more than a rejection, which is nothing more than that all of these should not happen in progressive places, anyone can come to progressive countries as long as they share the same progressive value as those countries. On a side note, I don't live in the United States, I happen to live in Singapore, a multi-cultural society and I have a few Muslim friends who are nice and chill people. I know for a fact that the factor for violence cannot be solely put on religion but there is, however, a culture in the Middle East that pushes the violence and regression in Islam constantly and no one really has a good solution to solve it. 

No one is purpose to start a war over it? My counter (U.S.) has combat troops in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia right now well as the borders of Pakistan. We kill people in the region everyday. The belief that Islam is bad absolutely plays a role in the population of the U.S. supporting these ongoing operations. If not for the negative view so many have towards Muslims I absolutely believe we'd (U.S.) would take a more peaceful and diplomatic approach in the region. 

[koti]

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No one is purpose to start a war over it? My counter (U.S.) has combat troops in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia right now well as the borders of Pakistan. We kill people in the region everyday. The belief that Islam is bad absolutely plays a role in the population of the U.S. supporting these ongoing operations. If not for the negative view so many have towards Muslims I absolutely believe we'd (U.S.) would take a more peaceful and diplomatic approach in the region. 

You have to be kidding...you genuinly believe that the reason for the US to have troups in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq is that "Islam is bad"?

[JohnDoeLS]

15 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No one is purpose to start a war over it? My counter (U.S.) has combat troops in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia right now well as the borders of Pakistan. We kill people in the region everyday. The belief that Islam is bad absolutely plays a role in the population of the U.S. supporting these ongoing operations. If not for the negative view so many have towards Muslims I absolutely believe we'd (U.S.) would take a more peaceful and diplomatic approach in the region. 

3

That's a pipe dream. The US is always going to send soldiers to wherever place that has conflicts, if not try to manipulate how the situation turns out by supporting the side they like, the end results are always about benefitting them in the end or biting them back in the ass. I am also sure there was a complete withdrawal of the US army in Afghanistan. Even if Islam isn't negatively viewed, this still won't happen. Either way, these wars didn't start because of Islam or the US's want for the rest of the world to conform strictly to their value. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by JohnDoeLS

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

You have to be kidding...you genuinly believe that the reason for the US to have troups in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq is that "Islam is bad"?

I 100% believe our national view towards Islam plays a role, of course. You must be kidding to apply other wise. Post 9/11 we have taken a hard stance with all Muslim majority countries and many Politicians include POTUS himself have made Islamophobic remarks. 

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, JohnDoeLS said:

That's a pipe dream. The US is always going to send soldiers to wherever place that has conflicts, if not try to manipulate how the situation turns out by supporting the side they like, the end results are always about benefitting them in the end or biting them back in the ass. I am also sure there was a complete withdrawal of the US army in Afghanistan. Even if Islam isn't negatively viewed, this still won't happen. Either way, these wars didn't start because of Islam or the US's want for the rest of the world to conform strictly to their value. 

There are conflicts all across Africa and Southern Asia and we don't have drones blowing up home daily in those regions. Despite the heightened rhetoric about drug cartels and Mexico he aren't blowing up cities in Central America. 

[JohnDoeLS]

15 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

There are conflicts all across Africa and Southern Asia and we don't have drones blowing up home daily in those regions. Despite the heightened rhetoric about drug cartels and Mexico he aren't blowing up cities in Central America. 

2

DEA and CIA influence the cartels in Mexico all the time, the only reason the United States doesn't have drones blowing shit up in those conflicts is because there is nothing to gain from those regions they are not as unstable as it is in the Middle East. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, JohnDoeLS said:

What do you mean? 

Other religions do the same, or do similar things. Islam is not unique in having brutal penalties, and in subjugating women.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Your interpretation is fundamentally wrong. An act of a religious regime causing cultural consequences cannot be interpreted by visualising it as a venn diagram where the two are overlapping partly or completely. Its just wrong. 

Since repeatedly saying what is wrong hasn't been particularly helpful, how about explaining in more detail what is right?

[JohnDoeLS]

16 minutes ago, swansont said:

Other religions do the same, or do similar things. Islam is not unique in having brutal penalties, and in subjugating women.

It is unique in the degree of its sheer brutality that is still being practised nowadays. 

[koti]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Since repeatedly saying what is wrong hasn't been particularly helpful, how about explaining in more detail what is right?

Religious regimes/doctrines causing cultural consequences is a cause&effect correlation. A venn diagram does not visualize causality therefore it is wrong to use it to describe a causality relationship. Does that help?
If not, I shall further accommodate you with the following causality chart example which should be used instead of a Venn chart.  I know it might be a difficult issue to grasp at first but I hope this will make it easier to understand:

Arrow from A to B indicates that A is the cause of B :

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by koti

[John Cuthber]

9 hours ago, swansont said:

What has any religion done to earn respect?

A fine question- for another thread.
Another, slightly nearer the topic would be "what can Islam (or any other religion) do to earn respect?".

However it's in the nature of religions that the one thing they can't do seems to be the one thing they would need to do.

They would need to accept that they were wrong, and change.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Moontanman]

This is one of the most loaded questions I've seen on this forum, and people are taking it seriously! Islam should get no more respect than any other ideology created by men to control man.... 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Moontanman

[bimbo36]

Its not Terrorism of ISIS that is pissing me off . It is the noise pollution . Why do you have to pray 5 times a day ? Why cannot you all throw away those loud speakers for a change ,Then there is nothing wrong with this religion

First do that , maybe you would earn every bodies respect .

[swansont]

14 hours ago, JohnDoeLS said:

It is unique in the degree of its sheer brutality that is still being practised nowadays. 

I thought the recurring theme here has been to look at the religion, not the practice or practitioners.

I don't see much of a difference between beheading someone and stoning them to death.

[swansont]

14 hours ago, koti said:

Religious regimes/doctrines causing cultural consequences is a cause&effect correlation. A venn diagram does not visualize causality therefore it is wrong to use it to describe a causality relationship. Does that help?

Not really. If the religion is so pervasive that it has control over all culture, they become indistinguishable. Cause and effect becomes irrelevant in practical terms. If the culture has been subsumed by the religion, you can't reject one without the other. Pushing back against the religion is the same as pushing back against the culture. 

IOW looking at cause and effect tells you how you got there, but not where you are. Where you are is that religion and culture are the same thing. 

[koti]

In case of religious regimes like the one in Saudi, religion and culture become bonded closely to a point in which there is virtually no aspect of ones life/culture which is not directly or indirectly controlled by it. But still it is never the "same thing, religion and culture are just two different entities. In societies without a religious regime, religion plays a minor role in shaping the society culture. If you live in a religious regime free society you you can always reject religion without rejecting culture. In Saudi you can't. In fact in Saudi, if you reject religion noone cares if you reject culture or not. The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death and this is the key reason why Islam should never be respected by anyone.

Edited August 8, 2017 by koti

[swansont]

15 minutes ago, koti said:

 The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death and this is the key reason why Islam should never be respected by anyone.

But it's not the only religion that has that penalty.  

[koti]

17 minutes ago, swansont said:

But it's not the only religion that has that penalty.  

So? I hope you don't mean that we should respect Islam because there are other horrible religions out there.

[Prometheus]

50 minutes ago, koti said:

The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death and this is the key reason why Islam should never be respected by anyone.

Not quite true.

The Quran, though certainly denouncing apostasy, makes no specific reference to punishments: you have to look to the Hadiths for that. Then you enter the whole which subset of Muslims follow which set of Hadiths tangle. A few Muslims even reject all the Hadiths. For sure some Muslims follow Hadiths which explicitly state the death penalty as punishment for apostasy, but far from all. Indonesia, the largest Muslim country by population, does not punish apostasy at all. Not to say you won't get pressure from friends and family, but their law ostensibly ensures freedom of religion. Things are getting worse out there though.

 

14 hours ago, bimbo36 said:

Why do you have to pray 5 times a day ? Why cannot you all throw away those loud speakers for a change 

So true. And they start so early. I never get decent sleep in Muslim countries.

[koti]

1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

Not quite true.

The Quran, though certainly denouncing apostasy, makes no specific reference to punishments: you have to look to the Hadiths for that. Then you enter the whole which subset of Muslims follow which set of Hadiths tangle. A few Muslims even reject all the Hadiths. For sure some Muslims follow Hadiths which explicitly state the death penalty as punishment for apostasy, but far from all. Indonesia, the largest Muslim country by population, does not punish apostasy at all. Not to say you won't get pressure from friends and family, but their law ostensibly ensures freedom of religion. Things are getting worse out there though.

The notion that Hadiths are not followed by all the Muslims is surely no consolation to the people executed in the name of Islam (not in the name of terrorism) How about you go to Riyadh and try to sell your above post to mutṭawa, we'll see if you come back home.

Edited August 8, 2017 by koti