Reconciling science and religion

[DrP]

3 minutes ago, Area54 said:

 Just as the scientists who claim science has proven the non-existence of God are misguided and unscientific,

I haven't heard anyone here saying that god was disproved....  who said that?  There are plenty that say that the bible is proven to be wrong...  It has been many times.

[bimbo36]

i have something in my head , i would like to make a post of it . It is religious , but that is my interpretation of the first revelation of quran ,

Gabriel came and started telling mohammed to read . He was illeterate but after after repeating the words read , he started reciting quran i guess ...

chapter 96 .. first revelation of a quranic chapter ..

Read in the Name of your Lord Who Created. (1)

He created the human being from Alaq (an embryo). (2)

Read, and your Lord is the Owner of the Greatest Honor. (3)

That He taught with pen. (4)

 

Maybe the angels and the god can see electrons much closer ?

Edited August 9, 2017 by Phi for All
Stop spamming this image and link!

[Area54]

Not in this thread, but in others and on other fora, and in other places, the claim is made by some/many scientists. Not, I think,  a majority, but a significant number.

The Bible has been shown to be factually incorrect in places. That does not mean its underlying messages have been shown to be wrong. I suspect you think it was wrong about the "creation", but this is only because you adopt the same misguided interpretation as the fundamentalists, failing to understand the poetic and metaphorical nature of the Genesis stories.

[Prometheus]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

but only by totally disregarding the bible...  which is the whole basis of their faith and teaching. So it isn't Christianity anymore if they do not believe in god or think that the earth was formed over billions of years rather than days.

So we are insisting religion is not allowed to change and then deriding it for not changing? 

A few Christian denominations are in favour of same sex marriage, despite the Bible being quite clear on the issue. Should we deny that these people are Christian or just acknowledge that it's all made up anyway so it doesn't really matter which bits they believe?

[DrP]

18 hours ago, Prometheus said:

So we are insisting religion is not allowed to change and then deriding it for not changing? 

I'm not insisting anything. I think it should change. I have never denied that a lot of good things come out of it, like loving your neighbour, love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. I am deriding it though, yes, but not for not changing. I am deriding it for lying about a deity, claiming truth and misleading millions.

 

[EdEarl]

The title seems to include all religions, but posters have posted about Christian beliefs only. Here is another perspective from the Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

Quote

If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.

Buddhists don't believe in a god or gods; although, there are supernatural beliefs among some Buddhists.

[DrP]

9 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

The title seems to include all religions, but posters have posted about Christian beliefs only.

I asked him the question in post number 2 as to which religion he was on about and he replied post number 4 that he was only talking about Christianity.

 

[EdEarl]

8 minutes ago, DrP said:

I asked him the question in post number 2 as to which religion he was on about and he replied post number 4 that he was only talking about Christianity.

 

In that case, here is the Catholic Church's position on science:

Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy
between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries 
and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind,
God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. ... 
Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, 
provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not 
override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the 
things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. 
The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is 
being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for 
it is God, the conserver of all things,
who made them what they are.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by EdEarl
rearranged Catholic Quote to fit on scren

[DrP]

5 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

In that case, here is the Catholic Church's position on science:

Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. ... Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.

This form of quote box is hard to read.

I read it alright though.   Sounds like they are embracing the god of the gaps then...  the gaps are getting smaller. Actually - I have watched a few interviews with catholic priests..  they don't really know what to believe...  they say they believe science, then they say they believe something from the bible that is totally unscientific, like the arc or god existing and interacting the way the bible says he does, when challenged about the conflicts of facts with their faith they um and ah and flit around the issue admitting or explaining nothing.

[EdEarl]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

I read it alright though.   Sounds like they are embracing the god of the gaps then...  the gaps are getting smaller. Actually - I have watched a few interviews with catholic priests..  they don't really know what to believe...  they say they believe science, then they say they believe something from the bible that is totally unscientific, like the arc or god existing and interacting the way the bible says he does, when challenged about the conflicts of facts with their faith they um and ah and flit around the issue admitting or explaining nothing.

It is a relative new, 1992. Older clergy no doubt had other ideas for a long time, and then had this edict from the Pope; thus, they were compelled to agree with it, but didn't really feel good about it.

[swansont]

22 hours ago, Randolpin said:

Christianity. Philosophers and scientists now found the data on their studies and research well-favored to Christianity. Brother/sister, take a look at the data or studies conducted by philosophers and scientists, they somehow favored the existence of God. It seems that some humans go in assuming that something is not true by not looking at the evidences. 

!

Moderator Note

You don't get to make such a claim without providing citations of some of these alleged studies. Please do so. 

 

[Prometheus]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

I'm not insisting anything. I think it should change. I have never denied that a lot of good things come out of it, like loving your neighbour, love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. I am deriding it though, yes, but not for not changing. I am deriding it for lying about a deity, claiming truth and misleading millions.

Cool. It's not a lie if they really believe it though. As a recovering Christian how do you suggest we go about about changing the religion? Not taking the Bible as the literal truth or word of god might be a good start.

[Randolpin]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

You don't get to make such a claim without providing citations of some of these alleged studies. Please do so. 

 

I will do my best:

First, I will recommend William Lane Craig's apologetics debates on youtube. Next scienctific studies like Vilenkin's latest conclusion that indeed universe is not past eternal but must begin I finite time ago and my argument that I thought for months- the property argument.

Let's discuss first WLC's points that God's existence best explains the data of human experience such as philosophical, scientific, experiential, moral, etc.

Just watch. Don't judge first

Here's the video of a debate of WLC vs. Kevin Scharp:

or this video:

and next video:

 

[MigL]

All science does is build models which explains and makes predictions about existence/reality.
Religion does exactly the same thing. It is in fact, the original 'model' which has been superseded many times by better and better models.
But as noted by others, there are still 'gaps' in our understanding. We make up stuff all the time to explain away what we don't know.

Until 'dark matter' is found, there is just as much proof that God is influencing galactic rotation rates.
Until 'dark energy' is identified, it could as well be God accelerating expansion.
Until we have a workable Quantum Gravity theory, it could be God at t=0.
Not that I seriously consider any of these explanations, but until we have a better understanding, the center of a Black Hole is still an impossible singularity.

And a lot of religions are closing the 'gaps'.
As Dimreeper has noted the Church of England does; And I would add that the Vatican actively encourages/funds scientific research.

Just because a model has been superseded, it doesn't become useless.
Newtonian gravity still has its uses, even though GR has eliminated many of its "gaps' in understanding.

Just as religion still has its uses( if one ignores the 'gaps' that science has filled in ) in providing guidance, fostering understanding, and concern for your fellow man.

[Randolpin]

Next let me deliver my Property argument:

1. Everything that exist has a property.

2. Every property has an explanation for why it has that specific property.

3. The universe has a property.

4. Therefore, there is an explanation why our universe has that specific property.

 

[bimbo36]

I mean if there was no religion and only atheists and science forums like these , it would have been weird for people ...

[DrP]

20 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

As a recovering Christian how do you suggest we go about about changing the religion? Not taking the Bible as the literal truth or word of god might be a good start.

That is a really good question. I could answer, but I am but one human being. If I give my honest current opinion I can tell you that I would have not agreed with it at all when I was a Christian and no-one would take it seriously. It is hard, because the obvious 1st acknowledgement would be as you said your self that the bible is not the word of god. But take that away and what have you got? Christianity is all about the bible (and trying to be good like Christ obviously).  Then, there is the fact that the god of this bible fails to show up and do his bit as it states he will often throughout. Maybe we need to start a new world religion... but that would then be perceived by many as blasphemous and evil and satanic. There is your Budism.... I see more and more value in that as the years go by for the peace and love and the respecting of life...  but there are different strands of that too and some of it total rubbish. Two of the nicest people I know profess to be Budist (a very western form of it anyway).

My honest answer is that I do not know Prometheus  -  teach love and respect from an early age at school? teach people how to be decent to each other without the god bull shit in there? A while back I would have prayed for wisdom to provide an answer your question. I still do pray sometimes as it has been such a help in the past - maybe I am trying to connect with what I used to believe to be god....  honestly I could waffle for pages about it....  but I think it might be totally pointless. lol.

 

Peace to you my friend.x

 

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, EdEarl said:

The title seems to include all religions, but posters have posted about Christian beliefs only. Here is another perspective from the Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

 

My first post...

Quote

I can see the benefit of such a reconciliation, but the onus is squarely on religion to move its position into line with science, not the other way round.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by dimreepr

[DrP]

16 minutes ago, bimbo36 said:

I mean if there was no religion and only atheists and science forums like these , it would have been weird for people ...

How?  It would have been different for people for sure.  Are you wrongly assuming there would be no love in the world?  Agape love is part of all of us...  I can see how some religions DO help in awakening that love in people that are hard of heart, but it does exist and can be connected with without Dumbo's feather*...  which is religion/god.

*Dumbo's feather   -  I use this a lot, but I am getting older so I'll explain in case anyone doesn't know what it is. Dumbo, the cartoon elephant with big ears, could fly....  He could only fly when holding his 'magic' feather....   It gave him confidence to take off and fly.  When he dropped the feather he realised that actually he didn't need it to fly at all as it was his own big ears that gave him flight. God is like Dumbo's feather for some. I used to pray for confidence and the holy ghost would fill me that confidence I needed (for public speaking, meetings etc..)...  but I do not need an outside agency...  that confidence comes from myself and this holy spirit is clearly just a state of mind. The 'belief' that it is an external spirit and not just part of me is what I am equating to Dumbo's feather.

 

I think that (pure speculation here) we all have access to part of our selves, maybe from our genes, that is similar for everyone. That place of peace and love - total acceptance and understanding. The Budists call it Nirvana I think. Some call it something like a kundalini awakening, some call it enlightenment...  I believe the Christians call it baptism in the holy spirit, although they would not admit it is the same thing and they don't all get it. Funny thing is that those that are more progressive and that don't believe in god do not believe in this baptism of the holy ghost...  but it is a very real state of mind. I reckon it is similar for everyone who connects deeply with their inner selves....  I am starting to waffle - but just wanted to add these musings. ;-)   

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by DrP
addition

[swansont]

35 minutes ago, Randolpin said:

I will do my best:

First, I will recommend William Lane Craig's apologetics debates on youtube. Next scienctific studies like Vilenkin's latest conclusion that indeed universe is not past eternal but must begin I finite time ago and my argument that I thought for months- the property argument.

!

Moderator Note

Videos of debates are not scientific studies. If that's your best then I am tempted to close this right now. You are well aware of our position on preaching.

 

[dimreepr]

25 minutes ago, DrP said:

My honest answer is that I do not know Prometheus  -  teach love and respect from an early age at school? teach people how to be decent to each other without the god bull shit in there? A while back I would have prayed for wisdom to provide an answer your question. I still do pray sometimes as it has been such a help in the past - maybe I am trying to connect with what I used to believe to be god....  honestly I could waffle for pages about it....  but I think it might be totally pointless. lol.

Peace to you my friend.x

 

We all know how to love and be decent people, at least those of us who haven't suffered at the hands of others, what we really need to learn, whatever age, is how to forgive those we hate, including ourselves.

If we can do that, the god BS really doesn't matter.

Edited August 10, 2017 by dimreepr
To add.

[Prometheus]

24 minutes ago, DrP said:

It is hard, because the obvious 1st acknowledgement would be as you said your self that the bible is not the word of god. But take that away and what have you got?

We don't need to take away the bible, just affirm that it is a fiction - and that if you think that demeans it then you've entirely missed the point. We don't teach kids Shakespeare because it is literally true, but because it reveals other kinds of truths.

[DrP]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

We all know how to love and be decent people,

I am not sure everyone does at all.  

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

... what we really need to learn, whatever age, is how to forgive those we hate, including ourselves.

 

That is a lot harder than it sounds...  Under the banner of Christianity (because that is the one I know) it can take many tears and much much soul wrenching. Honestly it can be very painful... as you yourself probably know....  although some seem to embrace it with joy - I guess it depends on what you need to forgive yourself or others for.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

I am not sure everyone does at all.  

 

That's kinda the point of...

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

at least those of us who haven't suffered at the hands of others

 

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

That is a lot harder than it sounds...  Under the banner of Christianity (because that is the one I know) it can take many tears and much much soul wrenching. Honestly it can be very painful... as you yourself probably know....  although some seem to embrace it with joy - I guess it depends on what you need to forgive yourself or others for.

It is indeed whatever banner you choose to fly, but it is the only real path to peace, be it global or personal.

[DrP]

Just now, Prometheus said:

We don't teach kids Shakespeare because it is literally true, but because it reveals other kinds of truths.

True  -  but the bible DOES get taught as being the literal word of god.  In churches anyway.  I know where you are coming from  -  that place isn't too dissimilar from where I am coming from either. I have a lot of respect for the spiritual.... I would still say I am fairly spiritual....  although it doesn't mean the same thing for me as it once did.