The psychological need of sleep

[Moreno]

There exist a speculations to explain a physiological need of sleep by claiming that brain is cleaned of toxins during the sleep time. However it is not explained exactly why this toxins cleansing can't happen gradually during waking time and why there is a need to disconnect the full consciousness for this reason.

But beside physiology in my perception there is a purely psychological need of sleep. Because sleep gives a person a mind-refreshing effect. If a person doesn't sleep too much and doesn't even need a lot of sleep for a physiological reasons he/she starts experience an unbearable "boredom" of surrounding reality which starts to surround him with and squeezes his mind. And after sleep person feels refreshing perception of surrounding reality like he is a "newborn" and the agonizing monotony of surrounding reality steps back for another day. This wonderful "refreshing" capability makes me interested a lot. There is a common scientific theories which are trying to tie sleep process with processing of data gathered by brain during the day and importance of dreams for this reason, but still it doesn't explain why this data processing can't happen somewhere in the subconscious during the state of wakefulness and we need to disconnect our full conciousness. It is known that many animals have either decreased need of sleep or anomalous type of sleep. For example giraffes sleep only 1 hour a day/night and many animals including see mammals, birds and reptiles have mono-hemispheric sleep (they never loose full awareness completely). Quite interesting that in my own perception (and that of other people) sleep has this wondering reality perception refreshing capability even it is hardly associated with any dreams. For example it happens rarely that person goes to sleep and wake ups "instantly", but in reality many hours have passed. I think it is an indication for lack of dreams, but wonderfully, people feel very refreshed after that type of sleep. I wonder, what could be done or how human brain have to be organized, at least theoretically, in order to have perception of reality always fresh like he just woke up after a good sleep and in this way we would have no psychological need of sleep.

Is it all explained by dreams or there is some other explanation? In reality dreams aren't too different from a common reality that surrounds us. People see in dreams themselves walking on the streets, visiting buildings and known places, talking to other people. So, why do they make such a strong effect on our perception of reality when we wake up (if they do)?

It makes me fascinated when I think about possibility to have a fresh perception of reality always and need no sleep for this. Any ideas how could it happen?

 

 

 

[DrmDoc]

4 hours ago, Moreno said:

There exist a speculations to explain a physiological need of sleep by claiming that brain is cleaned of toxins during the sleep time. However it is not explained exactly why this toxins cleansing can't happen gradually during waking time and why there is a need to disconnect the full consciousness for this reason.

Actually, there is no speculation as to what processes occur in sleep.  Research has indeed confirmed that our brain engages an effective system (glymphatic system) of interstitial waste clearance.  Although waste clearance also occurs when our brain is active and engaged, the process increase in efficiency during the non-dreaming stages of sleep.  When we are awake and active, our brain produces and accumulates toxins that are more efficiently removed when our brain is in non-REM and not as active in producing interstitial waste.

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

But beside physiology in my perception there is a purely psychological need of sleep. Because sleep gives a person a mind-refreshing effect. If a person doesn't sleep too much and doesn't even need a lot of sleep for a physiological reasons he/she starts experience an unbearable "boredom" of surrounding reality which starts to surround him with and squeezes his mind. And after sleep person feels refreshing perception of surrounding reality like he is a "newborn" and the agonizing monotony of surrounding reality steps back for another day.

 Our brain works better when it is clear of metabolic waste byproducts such as amyloid beta whose aggregation is observed as plaque in the brain's of Alzheimer's patients.  We feel refreshed and alert because of this glymphatic process that occurs amid sleep.

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

There is a common scientific theories which are trying to tie sleep process with processing of data gathered by brain during the day and importance of dreams for this reason, but still it doesn't explain why this data processing can't happen somewhere in the subconscious during the state of wakefulness and we need to disconnect our full conciousness.

I've argued against this idea of memory consolidation in sleep because, frankly, there's not credible evidence of that process.  If we are more alert, think and remember things more clearly after sleep, it's because our neurons can connect and function more efficiently when our brain is efficiently cleared of extracellular toxins that can produce neurological dysfunction and disease.

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

I wonder, what could be done or how human brain have to be organized, at least theoretically, in order to have perception of reality always fresh like he just woke up after a good sleep and in this way we would have no psychological need of sleep.

Although a lack of sleep does affect our psychology that particular affect is rooted in our brain's metabolic needs and processes, which how our brain evolved.

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

Is it all explained by dreams or there is some other explanation? In reality dreams aren't too different from a common reality that surrounds us. People see in dreams themselves walking on the streets, visiting buildings and known places, talking to other people. So, why do they make such a strong effect on our perception of reality when we wake up (if they do)?

Our brain is the largest consumer of our body's overall energy uptake and sleep doesn't suspend our its metabolic needs.  Dreaming occurs when our brain activates to increase blood flow to the brain, which resupplies our brain with the nutrients and oxygen it requires amid sleep.  Although dreaming is caused by our brain's metabolic needs in sleep, the activation those needs precipitate involve and arouse our sleeping brain's cognitive centers and processes.  The imagery in our dreams are a synthesis of the physiological and latent perceptions our brain detects amid this cognitive arousal stage in sleep.

[Moreno]

^

So, if I understand you correct you are convinced that our need of sleep is based on purely physiological needs and our psychological comfort or discomfort based on presence or absence of sleep is rather an illusion based on physiological reasons...

 

[Area54]

That is how I read DrmDoc's post. He presents a sound argument, with evidence. While I don't rule out a possible psychological element you have not presented any meaningful evidence to support your supposition. Do you have any?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Area54

[CharonY]

While not contentious in itself there are some issues in the reasoning. One being that clearing toxins somehow leads to better connection (to paraphrase it). It is not clear what a "better" vs. a worse connection is, for example. In addition, there is significant brain activity that utilizes the same pathways for recall and there is a large body of evidence indicating that these activities are relevant for consolidating memory (there are many, many reviews to this point). I.e. not only metabolic function play a role but also functions and mechanisms pertaining to overall plasticity. In fact, the amyloid hypothesis, while compelling, is still at the early stages of research and it has in fact been speculated that the effects of amyloid-beta impairs memory by affecting the sleep and associated consolidation processes (see the work from Holtzman, for example).

So, saying sleep is just detoxification does not do the process(es) justice and characterizing it as the sole/main/fully explained mechanism is a distortion of literature.

In contrast is clear is that the desire to sleep is physiological and the signaling mechanisms leading sleepiness or sleep itself are quite well understood and fall under the larger set of circadian rhythm systems.

Edited August 17, 2017 by CharonY

[DrmDoc]

12 hours ago, Moreno said:

So, if I understand you correct you are convinced that our need of sleep is based on purely physiological needs and our psychological comfort or discomfort based on presence or absence of sleep is rather an illusion based on physiological reasons...

Indeed, you understand correctly.  There's ample evidence that sleep is regulated and induced by our brain's biology (See melatonin and adenosine).  Adenosine, particularly, is produced as our brain metabolizes ATP, which is our brain's primary source of energy. Adenosine acts as an inhibitor in our central nervous system, which induces sleep.  As this neuromodulator is cleared from the brain, so is its effects in impeding brain function.  There's no psychology to this process, which merely involves the removal of a metabolized substance that impedes brain function and the mental acuity that function produces.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

While not contentious in itself there are some issues in the reasoning. One being that clearing toxins somehow leads to better connection (to paraphrase it). It is not clear what a "better" vs. a worse connection is, for example. In addition, there is significant brain activity that utilizes the same pathways for recall and there is a large body of evidence indicating that these activities are relevant for consolidating memory (there are many, many reviews to this point). I.e. not only metabolic function play a role but also functions and mechanisms pertaining to overall plasticity. In fact, the amyloid hypothesis, while compelling, is still at the early stages of research and it has in fact been speculated that the effects of amyloid-beta impairs memory by affecting the sleep and associated consolidation processes (see the work from Holtzman, for example).

So, saying sleep is just detoxification does not do the process(es) justice and characterizing it as the sole/main/fully explained mechanism is a distortion of literature.

In contrast is clear is that the desire to sleep is physiological and the signaling mechanisms leading sleepiness or sleep itself are quite well understood and fall under the larger set of circadian rhythm systems.

As I understand the process, memory and neural consolidation cannot occur without clearing those biochemical substances that inhibit our neural process.  Even brain plasticity is affected by these neuromodulators.  Although some memory upkeep and neural repair occurs during sleep, those processes are likely not the impetus for sleep unless they involve the production of those neuromodulators that induce sleep.  I think the amyloid hypothesis is very conclusive as it relates to its effects in Alzheimer's.  Therefore, its efficient removal in sleep is likely critical to our mental acuity upon arousal from sleep.

[CharonY]

The connection between amyloids and consolidation as well as the mechanisms of inhibition are still under investigation. I would very much like to see an actual paper that proposes that it cannot occur when that process is limited. Rather, they may inhibit the actual consolidation mechanisms, but to what extent is fairly unclear. People are still developing models to explore this connection and it is far from being resolved. The ATP link is a different aspect as to my knowledge I have not seen a link to the recently proposed clearance functions. And here we have at least three separate mechanisms that may be involved in memory consolidation: neuronal activity, potential disruption of said activities (specifically slow-wave activity) from amyloid accumulation (though different models of interaction between sleep, memory and amyloid deposition are under discussion) it is  as well as energy balance. It is not a simple resupply issue either, as obviously transport of nutrients and oxygen has to occur continuously. Moreover, the connection to energy is also complex as the ATP levels are not higher after sleep than before. Rather, there is a phase where  surge occurs and one could speculate that it is then used for anabolic processes. Again, clearly not in support of a simple resupply model as proposed (and it is not clear to my how that is supposed to connect with the removal of amyloids).

The processes involved in memory and sleep are complex and there is no simple answer as of yet. And again, one should be careful to highlight one aspect and presume it to be the answer to all. 

 

[Moreno]

16 hours ago, Area54 said:

That is how I read DrmDoc's post. He presents a sound argument, with evidence. While I don't rule out a possible psychological element you have not presented any meaningful evidence to support your supposition. Do you have any?

I do not know about other people, but personally I start to feel psychological discomfort even sooner than any serious physiological discomfort if prevented from sleep long enough. I just cannot tolerate boring monotony of surrounding reality for a long time and it becomes quite a strong suffering. My brain demands to get disconnected and after sleep I start to perceive reality in a fresher way. It looks like a clearly psychological need to me. But why exactly sleep does have this effect is a good question. Looks like some magic to me.

[Sensei]

12 minutes ago, Moreno said:

I do not know about other people, but personally I start to feel psychological discomfort even sooner than any serious physiological discomfort if prevented from sleep long enough. I just cannot tolerate boring monotony of surrounding reality for a long time and it becomes quite a strong suffering. My brain demands to get disconnected and after sleep I start to perceive reality in a fresher way. It looks like a clearly psychological need to me. But why exactly sleep does have this effect is a good question. Looks like some magic to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_memory#Sleep

"Some theories consider sleep to be an important factor in establishing well-organized long-term memories. (See also sleep and learning.) Sleep plays a key function in the consolidation of new memories.[11]"

[Moreno]

6 minutes ago, Sensei said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_memory#Sleep

"Some theories consider sleep to be an important factor in establishing well-organized long-term memories. (See also sleep and learning.) Sleep plays a key function in the consolidation of new memories.[11]"

Why this memory consolidation can't happen during state of wakefulness? This isn't fair comparison, but we need not to turn of computer periodically in order to get long term data storage consolidated.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Moreno

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Why this memory consolidation can't happen during state of wakefulness? This isn't fair comparison, but we need not to turn of computer periodically in order to get long term data storage consolidated.

One hypothesis is that the pathways and activity of retrieval (i.e. recalling memories) and consolidating memories are the same or at least associated with each other. Only when most of your brain is not active is it able to switch from one to the other. 

[DrmDoc]

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

The connection between amyloids and consolidation as well as the mechanisms of inhibition are still under investigation. I would very much like to see an actual paper that proposes that it cannot occur when that process is limited. Rather, they may inhibit the actual consolidation mechanisms, but to what extent is fairly unclear. People are still developing models to explore this connection and it is far from being resolved. The ATP link is a different aspect as to my knowledge I have not seen a link to the recently proposed clearance functions. And here we have at least three separate mechanisms that may be involved in memory consolidation: neuronal activity, potential disruption of said activities (specifically slow-wave activity) from amyloid accumulation (though different models of interaction between sleep, memory and amyloid deposition are under discussion) it is  as well as energy balance. It is not a simple resupply issue either, as obviously transport of nutrients and oxygen has to occur continuously. Moreover, the connection to energy is also complex as the ATP levels are not higher after sleep than before. Rather, there is a phase where  surge occurs and one could speculate that it is then used for anabolic processes. Again, clearly not in support of a simple resupply model as proposed (and it is not clear to my how that is supposed to connect with the removal of amyloids).

The processes involved in memory and sleep are complex and there is no simple answer as of yet. And again, one should be careful to highlight one aspect and presume it to be the answer to all.

The clearance function, as in the link I've provided, involves our brain's glymphatic system in which amyloid removal rather than metabolized adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is implicated. However, metabolized ATP does produce adenosine, which is indeed a neuromodulator shown to induce sleep.  The role of ATP in sleep is in the production of glycogen which, as you may know, is the reserve form of the glucose and oxygen our brain uses as energy. Although not clearly implicated in the homeostatic regulation of sleep, there's ample research evidence suggesting that replenishing glycogen is indeed a major function of sleep. Indeed, a less active brain promotes preservation and production of the energy it requires for full function. What I've found in most of the available meta-data on sleep is solid evidence for its biochemical modulation and interstitial clearance processes.  The evidence for consolidation, from what I've reviewed and IMO, is rooted in sleep deprivation and acuity studies that do not provide firm neurological evidence unrelated or not relatable to the clearance of inhibitory substances.  Indeed, there are no simple answers but I think those answers we do have are relatively clear. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by DrmDoc
grammer and wording

[CharonY]

 

15 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

Indeed, there are no simple answers but I think those answers we do have are relatively clear. 

You are arguing on different levels. Originally you made a firm association between the glymphatic processes and memory as the main process. Now you acknowledge that there are more involved but still quite clear. These two are different things. The first is the understanding of the complete processes with a consolidated model that explains the mechanisms, ideally from the biochemical to the neurophysiological level, which is lacking, as I have pointed out. The second is finding, and continue to find new processes that are elements of the former. And even in the smaller parts there is uncertainty. As your own source indicate the role of glycogen is far less certain as its levels themselves are not part of sleep regulation. It may play a role, or it may be a secondary effect of another mechanism. If you continue your reading you will find more bits and pieces and I assure you, it is going to be quite some work if you want to integrate them into a whole picture.  Just because ATP is involved, it may not relate to energy balance per se, but more to anabolic processes that are only favorable under sleep conditions, for example. More likely, there are many aspects that act in parallel.

Some key players, such as adenosine, are known. But how they precisely interact with other elements and in which sleep phases which interaction occurs is still subject to a lot of ongoing research. Only recently the role of pannexins as means of non-vascular release of adenosines with control over NREM sleep has been recognized, for example.

One big issue of course is that there functions of various levels that need to be investigated (from cell to organismal function) and many of those functions are interconnected with other general organismal functions. Typically, it is incredibly hard to dissect those pathways independent of each other. But my suggestion is: keep reading, there is a ton to learn still.

[DrmDoc]

As I understood the OP, his initial comments regarded:  

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 3:42 PM, Moreno said:

There exist a speculations to explain a physiological need of sleep by claiming that brain is cleaned of toxins during the sleep time.

In response, I've discussed and provided a link to a description of the glymphatic process.  My initial comments then were to confirm that the clearing of toxins from the brain during sleep is not speculative but is indeed supported by research.  Although I've acknowledge that sleep is probably not necessary for some clearance, I've provided links to articles discussing research describing how sleep more effectively promotes this glymphatic process. Indeed, I've asserted a strong link between the glymphatic process and memory but not as the main process or impetus for sleep, but rather as confirmation of the process.  There are indeed processes that occur during sleep other than the glymphatic process (e.g., glycogen production) and some of those processes may have nothing to do with sleep mediation.  However, I did provide links to sources confirming the biochemical mediation of sleep, which answers the OP's question of physiology versus psychology for sleep induction.  Regarding memory and neural consolidation in sleep, I have asserted an opinion that this process, based on my perspective of the research, cannot occur or occur efficiently without the clearance of interstitial toxins and is, therefore, not necessarily the primary impetus for sleep.  I've have asserted that whatever enhanced neural connectivity or mental acuity we experience upon arousal from sleep it's likely an effect of our sleeping brain's more efficient clearance process, which is a process shown to more efficiently remove the aggregates of toxins (e.g., amyloids) found in memory deficient brains such as Alzheimer's.  However, in my opinion, not doubt exist as to primary impetus or cause for sleep, which involves the biochemicals that induce sleep and their removal from the brain rather than a consolidation function that some believe cannot occur while the brain is more active.

It's my understanding that pannexin are glycoproteins that form single membrane channels and is associated with the release of ATP rather than the metabolized adenosine.  Please, post a link to the research you've described.  I try to stay current and remain very interested.

Edited August 18, 2017 by DrmDoc
grammer and wording

[CharonY]

The issue is not with your description of the individual processes. Rather that your initial claim was : 

On 8/16/2017 at 8:01 PM, DrmDoc said:

Actually, there is no speculation as to what processes occur in sleep.  Research has indeed confirmed that our brain engages an effective system (glymphatic system) of interstitial waste clearance.  Although waste clearance also occurs when our brain is active and engaged, the process increase in efficiency during the non-dreaming stages of sleep.

and

On 8/16/2017 at 8:01 PM, DrmDoc said:

I've argued against this idea of memory consolidation in sleep because, frankly, there's not credible evidence of that process.  If we are more alert, think and remember things more clearly after sleep, it's because our neurons can connect and function more efficiently when our brain is efficiently cleared of extracellular toxins that can produce neurological dysfunction and disease.

Which oversells one aspect of the puzzle as the whole picture. However in your last couple of posts you have switched to a more differential view which is far better than the initial declarative stance. One part that you seem to dismiss (if I understand you correctly) is that neuronal activity during sleep itself is required for memory consolidation (which is a pretty mainstream view) and that potentially amyloid deposition could be disruptive. Conversely it means that even if the clearance works perfectly and we disrupt neuronal activity, it would still inhibit memory consolidation.

With regard to pannexins take a look at Kovalzon et al. (Beh. Brain Res 2017) for a simple mouse study and Shestopalov et al. (Fornt Cell Neurosci 2017) for a very recent review. I just re-read my earlier post and realized that I made a number of rash mistakes, as it should read non-vesicular (I was working on a vascular paper hence the blunder) . Also, I should have said ATP, which is degraded to adenosine in the ECS.

[DrmDoc]

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

The issue is not with your description of the individual processes. Rather that your initial claim was : 

and

Which oversells one aspect of the puzzle as the whole picture. However in your last couple of posts you have switched to a more differential view which is far better than the initial declarative stance. One part that you seem to dismiss (if I understand you correctly) is that neuronal activity during sleep itself is required for memory consolidation (which is a pretty mainstream view) and that potentially amyloid deposition could be disruptive. Conversely it means that even if the clearance works perfectly and we disrupt neuronal activity, it would still inhibit memory consolidation.

With regard to pannexins take a look at Kovalzon et al. (Beh. Brain Res 2017) for a simple mouse study and Shestopalov et al. (Fornt Cell Neurosci 2017) for a very recent review. I just re-read my earlier post and realized that I made a number of rash mistakes, as it should read non-vesicular (I was working on a vascular paper hence the blunder) . Also, I should have said ATP, which is degraded to adenosine in the ECS.

I see your point.  Although I didn't make my position as clear as I should have with my initial comment, my subsequent comment were indeed intended as a response to the specific OP implication that neural detoxification in sleep was speculation, which it is not.  You're quite correct regarding my dismissal of sleep as essential for memory consolidation; however, it's not my opinion that amyloid clearance is a process disruptive to those that may involve memory consolidation.  My comment on this issue regards amyloids aggregates as a disruption to the consolidation process that must be removed for the process to be effective.  I'll have a look at the papers you've referenced as I remain very interested.   

Edited August 19, 2017 by DrmDoc

[DrmDoc]

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 3:38 PM, CharonY said:

With regard to pannexins take a look at Kovalzon et al. (Beh. Brain Res 2017) for a simple mouse study and Shestopalov et al. (Fornt Cell Neurosci 2017) for a very recent review. I just re-read my earlier post and realized that I made a number of rash mistakes, as it should read non-vesicular (I was working on a vascular paper hence the blunder) . Also, I should have said ATP, which is degraded to adenosine in the ECS.

I've reviewed the Shestopalov paper in Frontiers, which was co-authored with Kovalzon.  I did not find a link to the Kovalzon et al. (Beh. Brain Res 2017) paper.  As I now understand, Shestopalov paper describes the preliminary implications of pannexins in the "regulation of the sleep-wake cycle via an indirect effect of released ATP on adenosine receptors and through interaction with other somnogens, such as IL-1β, TNFα and prostaglandin D2."  As I understand the paper, pannexins may play a significant role in sleep regulation by being channels for the non-vesicular release of ATP and mediation of cerebrovascular tone with implications in the glymphatic process.  As conduits for ATP, it's interesting that pannexins "knock-outs" cause sleep disruption, which suggests to me the significance of ATP flow in sleep homeostasis.  The authors suggests their findings may have broad relevance to "coordinating neuronal activity and homeostatic housekeeping" during the sleep-wake cycle.  Although the significance of these "hemichannels" in sleep regulation is described as "indirect," I agree it is indeed an example of the continuing and emerging science on the nature of sleep.  

Edited August 21, 2017 by DrmDoc

[ritastrakosha]

On 8/16/2017 at 9:42 PM, Moreno said:

There exist a speculations to explain a physiological need of sleep by claiming that brain is cleaned of toxins during the sleep time. However it is not explained exactly why this toxins cleansing can't happen gradually during waking time and why there is a need to disconnect the full consciousness for this reason.

But beside physiology in my perception there is a purely psychological need of sleep. Because sleep gives a person a mind-refreshing effect. If a person doesn't sleep too much and doesn't even need a lot of sleep for a physiological reasons he/she starts experience an unbearable "boredom" of surrounding reality which starts to surround him with and squeezes his mind. And after sleep person feels refreshing perception of surrounding reality like he is a "newborn" and the agonizing monotony of surrounding reality steps back for another day. This wonderful "refreshing" capability makes me interested a lot. There is a common scientific theories which are trying to tie sleep process with processing of data gathered by brain during the day and importance of dreams for this reason, but still it doesn't explain why this data processing can't happen somewhere in the subconscious during the state of wakefulness and we need to disconnect our full conciousness. It is known that many animals have either decreased need of sleep or anomalous type of sleep. For example giraffes sleep only 1 hour a day/night and many animals including see mammals, birds and reptiles have mono-hemispheric sleep (they never loose full awareness completely). Quite interesting that in my own perception (and that of other people) sleep has this wondering reality perception refreshing capability even it is hardly associated with any dreams. For example it happens rarely that person goes to sleep and wake ups "instantly", but in reality many hours have passed. I think it is an indication for lack of dreams, but wonderfully, people feel very refreshed after that type of sleep. I wonder, what could be done or how human brain have to be organized, at least theoretically, in order to have perception of reality always fresh like he just woke up after a good sleep and in this way we would have no psychological need of sleep.

Is it all explained by dreams or there is some other explanation? In reality dreams aren't too different from a common reality that surrounds us. People see in dreams themselves walking on the streets, visiting buildings and known places, talking to other people. So, why do they make such a strong effect on our perception of reality when we wake up (if they do)?

It makes me fascinated when I think about possibility to have a fresh perception of reality always and need no sleep for this. Any ideas how could it happen?

 

 

 

You can do Uberman sleep (a kind of polyphasic sleep): sleep every 4 hours for 20 minutes. In total you will sleep 2 hours/24 hours.  You need to be very strict with the schedule to be successful. There are online communities of polyphasic sleepers.  A frequent problem with polyphasic sleep is that the immune system gets weakened and one can get pneumonia, or a bad influenza bout. It is almost impossible to stick to the schedule.

When people do not sleep for months on end, they die. See Fatal Familial Insomnia to see how one dies without sleep. 

[petrushka.googol]

Sleep helps in restoring the equilibrium of catecholamine related neuronal systems of the brain.

[DrmDoc]

5 hours ago, petrushka.googol said:

Sleep helps in restoring the equilibrium of catecholamine related neuronal systems of the brain.

Reference, please!

[nec209]

On 8/16/2017 at 3:42 PM, Moreno said:

There exist a speculations to explain a physiological need of sleep by claiming that brain is cleaned of toxins during the sleep time. However it is not explained exactly why this toxins cleansing can't happen gradually during waking time and why there is a need to disconnect the full consciousness for this reason.

But beside physiology in my perception there is a purely psychological need of sleep. Because sleep gives a person a mind-refreshing effect. If a person doesn't sleep too much and doesn't even need a lot of sleep for a physiological reasons he/she starts experience an unbearable "boredom" of surrounding reality which starts to surround him with and squeezes his mind. And after sleep person feels refreshing perception of surrounding reality like he is a "newborn" and the agonizing monotony of surrounding reality steps back for another day. This wonderful "refreshing" capability makes me interested a lot. There is a common scientific theories which are trying to tie sleep process with processing of data gathered by brain during the day and importance of dreams for this reason, but still it doesn't explain why this data processing can't happen somewhere in the subconscious during the state of wakefulness and we need to disconnect our full conciousness. It is known that many animals have either decreased need of sleep or anomalous type of sleep. For example giraffes sleep only 1 hour a day/night and many animals including see mammals, birds and reptiles have mono-hemispheric sleep (they never loose full awareness completely). Quite interesting that in my own perception (and that of other people) sleep has this wondering reality perception refreshing capability even it is hardly associated with any dreams. For example it happens rarely that person goes to sleep and wake ups "instantly", but in reality many hours have passed. I think it is an indication for lack of dreams, but wonderfully, people feel very refreshed after that type of sleep. I wonder, what could be done or how human brain have to be organized, at least theoretically, in order to have perception of reality always fresh like he just woke up after a good sleep and in this way we would have no psychological need of sleep.

Is it all explained by dreams or there is some other explanation? In reality dreams aren't too different from a common reality that surrounds us. People see in dreams themselves walking on the streets, visiting buildings and known places, talking to other people. So, why do they make such a strong effect on our perception of reality when we wake up (if they do)?

It makes me fascinated when I think about possibility to have a fresh perception of reality always and need no sleep for this. Any ideas how could it happen?

 

 

 

No one knows why people dream or why people need to sleep.

Others say your dreams are your memories being filing away. The memories in your brain being filing away or organized.

Or some kind of auto immune system repair or memory organizing.

Others like Freud think dreams are one way of the unconscious to talk to the conscious......

Edited September 20, 2017 by nec209

[petrushka.googol]

6 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

Reference, please!

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=F21aBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=does+sleep+restore+the+catecholamine+systems+of+the+brain&source=bl&ots=xjgvCl0aM3&sig=GO15vIc4nUFF3vRva6o34VL4vzU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ64y4n7XWAhVKM48KHf31CwcQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=does sleep restore the catecholamine systems of the brain&f=false

[DrmDoc]

21 hours ago, nec209 said:

No one knows why people dream or why people need to sleep.

Others say your dreams are your memories being filing away. The memories in your brain being filing away or organized.

Or some kind of auto immune system repair or memory organizing.

Others like Freud think dreams are one way of the unconscious to talk to the conscious......

If someone doesn't know why we sleep and dream it's because he or she haven't studied or understood contemporary research on the subject.  Sleep and dreaming is a product of how our brain evolved.  I suggest that the truly interested should begin their investigation with a clear perspective of how the dreaming brain likely evolved.  

 

18 hours ago, petrushka.googol said:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=F21aBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=does+sleep+restore+the+catecholamine+systems+of+the+brain&source=bl&ots=xjgvCl0aM3&sig=GO15vIc4nUFF3vRva6o34VL4vzU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ64y4n7XWAhVKM48KHf31CwcQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=does sleep restore the catecholamine systems of the brain&f=false

Although you did not identify the specific passage in the reference you provided, I've deduced that you are likely referring to section 2 of chapter 5 on the "Theoretical Implications" of sleep.  I could not access that section as your reference is merely a book purchase portal, which isn't exactly detailed or a peer-reviewed source.  However, theories aside, there is real evidence based on substantial and easily accessed research (e.g., glymphatic system) that more firmly and fully suggests why we sleep and what occurs when we do.  If some biochemical equilibrium is restored amid sleep, it's likely a byproduct of basic processes such as those associated with the glymphatic system.   

[Endy0816]

Doesn't explain the more active REM state though. Probably at least a couple of things going on.

[DrmDoc]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:26 PM, Endy0816 said:

Doesn't explain the more active REM state though. Probably at least a couple of things going on.

When one evaluates what is actually occurring in the brain during its REM state, one may only concluded that such activity is a byproduct of our brain's metabolic processes during sleep.  Our brain consumes about 20% of body's overall energy uptake, which is fairly large and why it becomes active amid sleep.  REM is a byproduct of the activity required to deliver increased oxygen and blood borne nutrients into brain structure during sleep as its metabolic needs and processes demand.