Separating H2 and O2

[zking786]

Once I have performed electrolysis in a container, I have both O2 and H2 dormant in the electrolysis container. I'm trying to find a way of both separating the two gasses (no longer ions) and presurizing them out of the chamber later to be forced into the intake of a vehicle. Anyone have any ideas for doing the two described processes (separating and pressurizing the gasses). If I put them into a vacuum line, then air is sucked into the electrolysis chamber (due to the negative pressure created by sucking the H2 and O2 gasses out). The air sucked in dilutes my pure mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, further complicating matters. Ideally, I would like to speparate both the hydrogen and oxygen produced and only inject the hydrogen into the intake. Any ideas?

[5614]

Electrolysis occurs with 2 electrodes as I'm sure you know... just collect the gas from one electrode in one container and the gas from the other electrode in a seperate container. Seeing as the gasses both form AT the electrodes a cover or container around them is often used, I've seen a boiling/test tube placed over the electrodes.

[ed84c]

If you were really smart you could get an anode that is from something reactive so that the O2 reacts at the anode thus forming an oxide and H2.

[zking786]

I'd probably want something that would react with the oxygen and sink to the bottom. That would be perfect! But what would do that!

 

In response to the previous response, I know what you mean, but that would require redesigning the electrolysis apparatus. It's currently built so that the electrodes are positive and the stainless steel container is grounded. The electrodes hang from a stainless steel cap at the top which also holds an outlet for the gas to be transfered into a vacuum line of the engine.

 

I assume that the hydrogen is attracted to the sides of the container, while the oxygen is attracted to the electrodes. In the end, however, the gasses all rise to the top of the container. I need to find a way to pressurize them out (even if both H2 and O2 go together) without sucking out the water. I also need to figure out a way to suck those gasses out without diluting the mixture with more air coming in due to the low pressure. If I have a small hole at the top of the container, air will come in substituting for the gas that was sucked out by the vacuum, but this will dilute the mixture. Hope you guys understand my dilemma. Any remedies?

[jdurg]

I'll let you know right now that if you have an electrolysis chamber sealed with both hydrogen and oxygen in there, you have basically built yourself a bomb. There is a perfect stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in an enclosed container, and the slightest spark or even a source of heat may cause to explode with violent force. Also, be absolutely sure that you have no platinum metal anywhere inside the chamber. Platinum metal alone will catalyze the reaction between hydrogen and oxygen and will result in a very loud KABOOM!

[zking786]

I have a vaccum line at the top, so it's not completely sealed off.

[zking786]

here are some pictures

hydrogen pics.doc

[woelen]

I'll let you know right now that if you have an electrolysis chamber sealed with both hydrogen and oxygen in there, you have basically built yourself a bomb. There is a perfect stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in an enclosed container, and the slightest spark or even a source of heat may cause to explode with violent force. Also, be absolutely sure that you have no platinum metal anywhere inside the chamber. Platinum metal alone will catalyze the reaction between hydrogen and oxygen and will result in a very loud KABOOM!

I completely agree with jdurg! Even, when not confined, a perfect mix of H2 and O2 will explode violently on ignition. Just to impress yourself, perform the following experiment.

 

Take a tub, full of water and put in some soap.

Take a few ml of a perfect H2/O2 mixture (not more, just a few ml!!!!!) and bubble this under water, such that you get some bubbles with the gas mixture at the surface.

Before the bubbles pop and break apart, light them with a cigarette lighter.

You'll be really impressed by the loud BOOM of just a few ml of unconfined gas mixture!

If you have done this, then you'll certainly redesign your electrolysis device. You simply MUST collect the O2 and H2 in separate chambers if you do not want to blow up yourself!

[zking786]

But if the container is closed tightly, with only one vent at the top, spark cannot enter. Earlier, you mentioned heat can cause an explosion. What do you mean? Wouldn't the heat have to become spark; or can it ignite without the spark?

 

Is there a way to separate the H2 and O2 after their ionic states (when hydrogen is no longer H+).

 

In another post, someone mentioned blowing up a balloon with hydrogen and oxygen. While both gasses rise, will they both rise and travel beyond the container through the hole? How were they able to inflate a balloon? Wouldn't they need to pump the gasses into the balloon or am I missing something?

[calbiterol]

They have a massively different setup than you do. Just because there is only one vent doesn't mean that it can't catch fire. The hydrogen/oxygen mix coming out of the vent could quite easily catch fire, and if it did (no spark required, any number of things could do it), then the explosion will travel into your container, and kaboom, no more container, and no more electrolysis experiments for anyone near it - this stuff has potential to be deadly. It's the SAME fuel that's used in the space shuttle. They don't even mix the oxygen and hydrogen until it reaches the nozzle, where combustion is supposed to occur, and they do it in such a way that there is no way for the explosion (controlled, but an explosion nonetheless) to travel because there is no oxygen with the hydrogen. The setup you have is very, very dangerous, and quite possibly deadly. If your container is bigger than a coffee can, consider yourself very lucky that you have non maimed, severely injured, or killed yourself thus far. Please, I urge you, change your setup and collect the two gasses seperately!

[zking786]

ok, what about the pressure issue?

"In another post, someone mentioned blowing up a balloon with hydrogen and oxygen. While both gasses rise, will they both rise and travel beyond the container through the hole? How were they able to inflate a balloon? Wouldn't they need to pump the gasses into the balloon or am I missing something?"

[calbiterol]

Simple - they filled one container and pushed the gas out into the balloon. The only relatively safe way of doing this is by pusing each gas into the balloon seperately. It's like a one-cylinder compressor.

[woelen]

Zking786, you received multiple replies/warnings now. Did you get the message? STOP WITH THIS EXPERIMENT unless you change your setup .

We would like to see you in this forum next month also .

[zking786]

I will be changing the setup. I think I'll use 2 electrodes, one pos and one neg. I'll connect them to the ground of the unit (not the lid). That way, I can place separate lines above the electrodes and get a consistant, separated, and safe supply of each gas. The only concern is sucking the hydrogen in with some sort of vacuum ~ I would also get the water with it. Do you think the hydrogen will travel through a relatively horizontal nonvacuum line 3ft?

[akcapr]

correctme if im wrong, but if theres enough pressure in the devise, just that can cause the gases to react= boom.

[jdurg]

For getting the gases out, hydrogen is a VERY not-dense gas. (In fact, it's the least dense gas in existance). So any hydrogen that is formed will automatically rise upward whether you're sucking it out or what. Oxygen is approximately the same density as air, if not a bit more dense. So for the oxygen part of your contraption, you may want to just flush out the electrolysis chamber with oxygen gas so that as more gas is formed, the oxygen will be pushed out into your apparatus. Either way, once enough gas has been formed it will have no place to go except through your outlet and into whatever you're trying to inflate.

 

As for the H2/O2 dangers, to fully understand what we're talking about you should really give it a small test. It is almost unfathomable how loud that perfect stoichiometric mixture explodes. It completely took me by surprise the first time I did it. A couple of years ago I had a balloon about the size of a softball filled with that perfect 2:1 ratio of H2/O2. When it was filled, I used some warm (body temperature as in I had it held in my hand for a few minutes) Pt wire and popped the balloon. The introduction of the warm Pt wire catalyzed the reaction and KABOOM! Scared the living crap out of me. I wasn't hurt, but my ears were ringing for a while.

[zking786]

Here is the revised apparatus

[akcapr]

im not sure ull be able to efficiently to fill a car with that- the h2 will be generated not fast enough for that.

[calbiterol]

Wait, what's the overall objective for this? And for oxygen collection, just set it up like a syphon - breathing in O2 is harmless - and be sure to have a section of the tube at the end going horizontal, like a J, so that the oxygen can rise or fall, depending on actual density of both the oxygen and the air.

[akcapr]

ive heard breathing too much o2 is bad for you, you know wat they say in bio, "oxygen is a very toxic gas..."

[calbiterol]

I always get into trouble saying blanket statements like that. Breathing in small amounts of pure O2 won't hurt you. Too much of most everything could be linked to cancer these days, so I'm not about to say all O2, even after inhaling it pure for a month, is healthy. Plus, pure O2 destroys vitamin C. And could potentially cause scurvy on a Mars colony. But that is a different story altogether.

[zking786]

I will be supplementing the vehicle with hydrogen as a fuel. Since the fuel will still be used in the vehicle, I'm hoping to decrease the amt of gasoline (as the minute amounts of hydrogen should replace larger amounts of fuel). The result should be consistant performance and lower mileage.

[calbiterol]

Is this a normal, gasoline-burning combustion engine?

[H2SO4]

you can suffewr from "acute oxygen poisoning". Anyway, theres no way in hell you will be able to power a internal combustion vehicle through electroysis. You will also need huge sums of energy.

[zking786]

Only supplement, not power. Once the alternator has charged a battery, the power it generates is being put to waste. This serves as an effective usage for the remaining energy. I'm only looking to gain about 5mpg (from 20mpg).

 

Also, while hydrogen burns at a temperature much higher than fuel, in minute quantities it should not harm a normal gas-burning combustion engine.