Do you think humans will ever make it illegal to inflect pain on other lifeforms (e.g. insects, bats ,rats etc.) as we head into the future?

[mad_scientist]

Will humans ever treat other animals with the care and respect they deserve as the human population becomes more humane in time? What do you think? Is it inevitable that the human population will treat other animals as good as how we treat other human beings?

[Phi for All]

The differences between your title and your opening post make it difficult to respond. You seem to be making assumptions in the post that aren't present in the title. 

[DrP]

In this country - the UK - it isn't legal to be cruel to animals...  I think there is a line and people do swat flies and kill bugs and stuff.... some kids get angry and take out their frustration on animals...  (I once saw a 6 year old girl kick a kitten   -  I said to her "owwww...  you mustn't hurt him!" and tried to look sad....   she then looked sad and ran away.  I hoped she would feel guilt and shame (mildly of course) and change her ways...  if I had scolded her she might have got even more bitter about whatever it was that was troubling her and she might have got worse with her animal violence). 

 

The RSPCA (Royal Society for the Protection of Animals) do have some powers and can impose heafty fines on people that mistreat or neglect their pets. We aren't perfect - we are human animals after all and such is nature...  there is some cruelty in it.....   but I think we are improving and laws preventing animal suffering are improving (like banning of fox hunting and badger baiting)....  English people that go to Spain to watch a bull fight sometimes get shunned, shamed and ostricised a bit if they talk about how good it was when they return for example. 

 

[Moontanman]

9 hours ago, mad_scientist said:

Will humans ever treat other animals with the care and respect they deserve as the human population becomes more humane in time? What do you think? Is it inevitable that the human population will treat other animals as good as how we treat other human beings?

Are we talking about survival, self defence or just for fun? 

[EdEarl]

Buddhists tend to avoid harming animals, including people, and has been for up to 3000 years. IDK when the practice started.

[mad_scientist]

On 10/09/2017 at 0:09 PM, Moontanman said:

Are we talking about survival, self defence or just for fun? 

For fun.

 

On 10/09/2017 at 4:00 AM, DrP said:

English people that go to Spain to watch a bull fight sometimes get shunned, shamed and ostricised a bit if they talk about how good it was when they return for example. 

 

Good to hear some progress for humanity happening.

 

On 10/09/2017 at 1:51 PM, EdEarl said:

Buddhists tend to avoid harming animals, including people, and has been for up to 3000 years. IDK when the practice started.

Not really. Reality check:

 

[mistermack]

It's difficult to police, so we tend to ignore animals "below" the level of rats. I don't see that changing much in the near future.

What's also interesting, is how we treat machines with artificial intelligence. If it's morally bad to mistreat an ant, then isn't it just as bad to mistreat a machine that is far advanced of the ant in every way? Maybe it depends on whether the machine has been given a sense of personal identity, and a desire to keep existing.

What would it be like to say to your computer, "I'm scrapping you, because I've bought the new model".

I already feel bad about scrapping my car. And it doesn't speak to me or interact. What if people in the future chat to their cars all the time? ( with the car doing the driving) You might feel really bad about scrapping it.

[EdEarl]

@mad_scientist

I said Buddhist tend to be non violent; in other words, there are exceptions. People are emotional and irrational sometimes, including Buddhists. Moreover, killing with compassion, for example to save more lives than one takes, is acceptable. Finally, people with bad intentions, for example mass murderers occur in populations around the world, including Buddhist populations, and spread mayhem whoever they are.

Laws against murder are common throughout the world, but they do not prevent killing. Similarly, laws exist in some places that discourage cruelty to animals, but they don't prevent it. I doubt such laws have any effect on people who commit such heinous acts.

[Moontanman]

2 hours ago, mad_scientist said:

For fun.

 

Even among hunting circles killing for fun, fun is defined as killing an animal but not using or having any use for the corpse/body. Even among experienced hunters this is often frowned on with extreme prejudice. Hunters often share the meat of the kill with everyone who participated, with soup kitchens, or with friends and family. I have a small store of venison in my freezer and I do not hunt. 

Fishing is a bit less clear due to the fact that fish can and often are released unharmed if they are not going to be cooked for food. 

Commercial fishing is a problem, due to bycatch and fact that bycatch is often killed by the nets and wasted...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

[DrP]

 

[bimbo36]

In some  parts of india , people are not allowed to eat beef .The hindu majority will kill the muslim minority if you eat cow . Cow is considered sacred and is some sort of god .

[geordief]

Does "charity begin at home"?

First be kind to yourself and ,on that basis your treatment of others will be similarly characterized.

This behaviour may propagate in widening circles of "influence" ,passing through friends,colleagues ,family etc ,extending to other creatures at the end of the road.(even objects).

Like all rules this would exist to be broken and adapted to circumstance.

[Schizo@play]

The human race has put limits on certian types of harm (method in which to cause pain) which can be caused to another lifeform but has not out right outlawed it.

I have to ask.

Is the human race willing too subject itself to the raw animalist nature of true survial of the fitiest? 

Doesnt even most theological based ways (relegion) have an acceptable limit of harm caused?

I would have to say an outright policy of no harm to another lifeform is like asking. Are you (an animal) willing to lye down and die so a preaditor can eat you to survive? 

I will say as long as there is life there will be pain. The pain caused in some cases will be caused unintentionally.  There will always be unavoidable pain as well. Survial of most life forms dictates that death must occur for survial of its  species.

My personal understanding, pain is how you know your alive. 

I would also like to point out the human race uses pain as a tool of compliance.(  I.e. spanking for misbehaving ) even police use pain compliance. 

I would say as long as the human race feels the neurological effect of pain stimulation it will be legal in some fashion.  Also I would like to point out some people have a higher tolerance of pain and some find it to be stimulating. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

I killed a mammal with my bare hands two days ago, it was very unpleasant and left me feeling really... depressed for some reason. Killing large crayfish, physically tearing them apart so the small fish can eat them bothers me not at all... Something I'll have to give some thought to...  

[DanTrentfield]

My apologies, but no. And frankly you should work on your writing a little. 

Humans, much like the animals they consider themselves above have a deeply ingrained instinct of: Survive. 

This means that since animals consume resources which means there is less to go around for humans, and because humans have hunted and eaten animals for thousands of years that we will most likely never treat them that way. 

Besides who wants to give up tasty hamburgers after studying hard for your english lit class you hate but want to excel in? 

Finally, human nature, which can be broken down to: Reproduce, make better tools and better surroundings for the next generation, and fight potential threats off. Doesn't really allow for that. If you've ever played a game called Factorio https://factorio.com/ this game basically breaks down what humans do to a stupid simple level, minus reproduce for obvious reasons. Build, pave that forest floor after chopping it down, and crush those stupid bugs (Or animals) who get in my way. 

Yes, we suck, but look at all the good things humanity has done to counter this.

Edited October 10, 2017 by DanTrentfield

[Schizo@play]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:21 AM, DanTrentfield said:

yes we suck but look at all the good things humanity has done counter

 I was talking about the pain of living and suriving which is endured in a lifetime. What I call toxic happiness.   

Good is subjective term by the way. 

Also if you have issue with a persons writing or typing p.m. them the grievance please.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Schizo@play
Way off topic of thread

[DanTrentfield]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:12 PM, Schizo@play said:

 I was talking about the pain of living and suriving which is endured in a lifetime. What I call toxic happiness.   

Good is subjective term by the way. 

Also if you have issue with a persons writing or typing p.m. them the grievance please.

 

Good is a subjective term just as is suffering. Suffering can be quantifiable in hundreds of unique forms. Pain is also subjective because it is again, quantifiable in hundreds of different unique forms. If you play the game of "Let's take what I said out of context" then the birds will turn on you fast. 

 

Keeping what I said in context: Good as definable by a positive influence which humans have had on animals in the fact that hundreds if not thousands of species are carefully preserved pampered and given treatment they'd never receive in the wild. Suffering cannot be stopped, cruelty will always endure as long as kindness does, this is because the world is a giant contrast to itself. 

 

Also, morality is relative, that's why some people think murder is perfectly acceptable and that's also why we put those blokes in prison. Morality is also personal.

Edited November 3, 2017 by DanTrentfield

[Sensei]

Quote

Do you think humans will ever make it illegal to inflect pain on other lifeforms (e.g. insects, bats ,rats etc.) as we head into the future?

In the future, this problem (the most likely) won't exist, because the all other lifeforms will be eaten by hungry humans, on overpopulated Earth...

 

Japan already have density of population like the Earth will have with 50 billions of people living at the same time. They right now have to import significant percentage of food from other countries.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2008/02/26/reference/japan-needs-imports-to-keep-itself-fed/#.WhN5FHndiHs

"The Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Ministry said in August that Japan’s food self-sufficiency in 2006 was 39 percent on a calorie basis and 68 percent in terms of the value of agricultural output."

Right now, they can do that just because they are wealthy and other poorer countries have higher production than internal demand.

But when the all other countries will have similar density of population, wealthy countries will be sucking in the production from poor countries, and hundred of millions (rather billions of people more realistically) from poorer countries will be seeking alternative sources of food, basically eat everything what they can find, including other humans in the extremities..

ps. I have nothing against Japan. They're just currently existing example of overpopulated country already. But in the case of collapse of global trading (as a result of f.e. nuclear war or other global disaster) they'll have problems the first..

 

[Phi for All]

19 hours ago, Sensei said:

In the future, this problem (the most likely) won't exist, because the all other lifeforms will be eaten by hungry humans, on overpopulated Earth...

Don't you think investment into existing cultured meats technology will tend to offset this scenario when it becomes a greater problem? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

[Sensei]

12 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Don't you think investment into existing cultured meats technology will tend to offset this scenario when it becomes a greater problem? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

That's what I said in this post:

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/111630-presupposition-faith-and-truth/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1023667

 

[John Cuthber]

It seems that the UK's increasingly insane government has legislated to increase animal suffering by removing EU restrictions on it.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

That's what I said in this post:

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/111630-presupposition-faith-and-truth/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1023667

 

Right. So you were being sensationalistic with the comment about us eating all the other lifeforms.

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

It seems that the UK's increasingly insane government has legislated to increase animal suffering by removing EU restrictions on it.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html

I can hardly believe there's a decent conservative argument for this and similar moves in the US, so I have to call extremist capitalism. It's costing someone profit to remain humane, so guess what's got to go?

[Moontanman]

I killed off a colony of rats a poorly installed AC system allowed to get under my house and in from there. I poisoned them all, not sure but I think i killed dozens, I feel no shame, rats simply cannot be allowed to exist near humans... 

[Sensei]

21 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Right. So you were being sensationalistic with the comment about us eating all the other lifeforms.

Nonsense.

It's just a matter of quantity of humans per area unit of the Earth, and their starvation level.. People during sieges used to eat their cats, dogs, rats, mouses.. Starving people in Asia started eating insects.

Western well-educated countries can develop GMO modified organisms, while poor, low educated countries, without access to GMO, will be (or can be) leaved on their own..

 

[John Cuthber]

21 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I can hardly believe there's a decent conservative argument for this and similar moves in the US,...

Conservatives do not seem interested in "decent".