Punching

[gaara]

Hello,

 

im wondering if this is a common misconception:

That a man who is more muscley an obviously has bigger arms can punch faster than an person with smaller arms. there strength is relative to each other.

 

like a heavy wweight boxer compared to a light weight is spose.

[blike]

I'm not sure that arm speed can be directly correlated to muscle mass. Smaller people tend to have a speed advantage over larger people, but obviously larger people can sometimes pack a bigger punch. So to answer your question: more muscle doesn't necessarily mean more speed.

[john5746]

My guess would be the tall, skinny guys would have the greatest speed. Thier hand is farthest from the shoulder. But Force requires mass also, so big arms, body and strong legs would generate the biggest wallup.

[Mokele]

Well, it depends.

 

If we have two people with different-sized arms, but the arms are identical in proportions, then the smaller one is faster. This is because if you increase the linear dimensions of the arm twofold, you increase all relevant surface areas 4-fold (which includes muscle corss-section, which determines force), but you increase mass 8-fold. So the arm that's twice as long as 4 times the force working on 8 times the mass. This means only half the acceleration. Ever wonder why insects can move so fast? Smaller means faster, generally.

 

However, if we're talking about two people with arms that are just as long, but one guy is a bodybuilder, it gets more complicated. For every increase in thickness, there is an increase in both force generation and in mass. If the mass increase is small compared to the total mass of the arm, then the overall result will be faster punches. But with each increase, the benefits decrease, because the muscle mass increases, and eventually it gets to the point at which any increase in muscle will add enough mass to eliminate the benefits of more force.

 

Of course, there's also the matter of the *type* of muscle fibers. You have fast-twitch, slow-twitch and intermediate. As you can guess from the names, the first is fast but easily exhausted, the slow-twitch are slow but strong and capable of sustained activity over a long time, and intermediate is, of course, in-between. Depending on the type of exercise done, you can alter the proportion of these fibers in your muscle, increasing one type at the cost of others. Thus, if the guy with a big, massive arm has mostly fast-twitch fibers, he'll still be faster.

 

--------------

 

Of course, it's all really moot: A proper punch is mostly guided by the arm muscles and powered by your trunk muscles. Watch a good martial artist punch and pay attention to how their hips and shoulders move. The trunk has far more mass and momentum than the arms, and using that mass and those muscles dramatically increases the power of any punch or kick.

 

Mokele

[husmusen]

Agreed, apart from short sharp jabs, the muscles that do most of the powering are located in the torso, and transmit force via tendons.

 

That way they don't have to be moved every time you move your arm, similarly the muscles that move your finger are (mostly) in the forearm. Makes an awful lot of sense really in design terms.

 

Before I saw them in action I always had this idea that Sumo wrestlers were really heavy and lumbering, but they arenn't their speed and agility can be quite startling so too brown bears are also very agile, like a dog.

 

So looks can definately be deceiving.

 

Cheers.

[gaara]

ok thanks alot for all your responses.

 

another question if anyone cares or wants to answer.

 

is it better, as in a much stronger punch if you twist your shoulders or keep your shoulders square and step forward with the punch? .... thanks

[YT2095]

twisting will add greater force, stepping requires gravity, and that`s not very fast acting at all.

[Spyman]

If You step forward with the punch in a correct way, then You will end up having the full momentum of Your body weight in the force of the punch. If You are a heavy person that can also be a lot.

 

So again it depends...

 

If it's only to get max force, then why not do both ?

[MolecularMan14]

I box. Im a big guy and generally, the bigger: the slower, but we train a lot for speed. There is a difference in muscle tissue that helps either with speed or power, depending upon what you work out for: endurance or strength.

[gaara]

o right kewl.

 

has anyone heard of the martial art called win chun or win tsung, they seem to have mastered the art of using your whole body to punch. it seems very forceful to me.

 

an can anyone answer why in tae kwon do we dont twist our shourlders but are taught to keep them square. whilst in boxing im pretty sure you twist your shoulders...

 

yeah thanks

[Dak]

i used to do wing chun. the hips can be twisted, or the entire body sunk down, in order to throw the bodys weight into the punch.

 

in wing chun, most of the power was sacraficed for speed; the twisting of the body etc is an attempt to regain some of that power without lessening the speed too much, but wing chun punches are still weaker than most martial arts -- they still hurt though, and are generaly very fast (8 per second, if your a black belt and dont throw your weight into the punches) and are usually aimed at the throaght.

 

one interesting thing about wing chun punches, is that theyre powerful in a very quick and snappy way: when i used to get punched in the chest in training, i never used to go flying backwards or anything, hardly recoiled atall infact, but i could definately feel the energt sink into my chest, whereupon it usually winded me.

[j_p]

Rather off the topic of speed and power, but what about telegraphing? The set-up for a torso powered punch is detectable by the opponent, isn't it? Blows off a 'still' torso are harder to detect and to block, aren't they?

[gaara]

i would say soo. an if so, to me that seems a big flaw, for when i spar, reading my opponents attacks is my main advantage.

 

also in wing chun, which knuckles are you taught to strike with. e.g the pinky's knuckle?

 

 

and soo in general, if im of like average build (skinny, small wrists and arms) and my friend is a football player and swimmer with big muscley arms should i be able to punch faster then him, im not soo interested in the power aspect, because he can clearly punch harder than me. but i am also a trained martial artist. ive bin a black belt for 5 years, but i am only 17 years old, implying that i am not some master ive only recently been accelerating in my understanding of my martial art.

 

ha sorry for the long story...

[Dak]

also in wing chun, which knuckles are you taught to strike with. e.g the pinky's knuckle?

the bottom two or three. i tend to use the bottom two, but many wing chun practitioners use the bottom three. the fist is verticle in wing chun punches, by the way, and the punch goes more-or-less in a straight line from the center of the body to the target, with effort only being put in at the last couple of inches.

 

also, chops and palm-strikes are used quite alot (theyre generaly used more than punches at the higher-levels). and elbows. i like elbows oh, and kung-fu pokes to the eyes. i like them too.

[gaara]

yeah ok the bottom three or two. but why??? i am taught to use my 1st two knuckles. and that seems reasonable because they are the biggest and hardest on my hand.

[atinymonkey]

yeah ok the bottom three or two. but why??? i am taught to use my 1st two knuckles. and that seems reasonable because they are the biggest and hardest on my hand.

Because in Wing Chun the base of the hand contains the power. If the fist is vertical, the wrist lines up with bottom fingers of the fist and so the power from the shoulder is transferred through the lower fingers. It's just how the body is postioned to transfer the power. The positioning also means swapping from a punch to a palm strike is very simple, by twisting the arm and opening the fist.

 

It's quite difficult to describe, but the simple way is for you to look at how Bruce Lee punches. Bruce was a Wing Chun master before he moved on, and you can see how he transferres the power from his shoulder to his arm and into the hand.

 

The vertical fist: -

Notice the straight line from the shoulder to the lower part of the fist. That's the power transfer.

[Dak]

whereas, if you twist your arm so that your fist is horisontal (like in karatae, for example), then a strait line is easyer formed from your sholder to your top two knuckles.

[YT2095]

dAK yes, the index and the middle finger knuckles take the hit in Karate, it`s also more logical, as they`re stronger in structure than the smaller ones in a roundhouse punch or (Hook) as it`s sometimes called.

also in Karate "Izuku" or single punch is done mainly from thr hip also, and uses the index and middle to make contact.

[tjwingchun1]

If anyone wishes to open this debate I can explain why exactly that Wing Chun uses the bottom three knuckles as opposed to the big two that Karate and Tae Kwon Do use, the details of punching dynamics and the process of combining the various kinetic energies to re-create the 'mystical inch punch' of Bruce Lee.

[Psycho]

If anyone wishes to open this debate I can explain why exactly that Wing Chun uses the bottom three knuckles as opposed to the big two that Karate and Tae Kwon Do use, the details of punching dynamics and the process of combining the various kinetic energies to re-create the 'mystical inch punch' of Bruce Lee.

I will then, i would also like to know what different exercises would create more of the faster muscles and what would create more of the slower stronger ones, because i presume doing different types of exercise would produce different types?

[iglak]

I will then, i would also like to know what different exercises would create more of the faster muscles and what would create more of the slower stronger ones, because i presume doing different types of exercise would produce different types?

as far as i'm aware, there are 3 types of muscle movement.

static, slow-twitch, and fast-twitch.

 

static is like when you hold something out at arms length, or when you squat for a long time.

slow-twitch is when you lift weights like normal. or when you use pretty much any machine like normal. this tends to build muscle size

fast-twitch is when you lift more than normal faster than normal. this tends to build muscle definition.

 

fast-twitch is best for agility and speed.

slow-twitch is best for stability and control.

static is best for endurance.

all of them build strength at their restective speeds. fast-twitch provides explosive martial arts strength.

 

certain muscles build better at certain speeds. i don't know what's what though. i think smaller muscle groups are generally faster.

[reor]

I guess it depends on the style which muscles are more useful to train.

 

Pushups and shadow boxing is the best way to increase punch speed. You might also want to try underwater boxing. There are several pushup techniques. Knuckle pushups are best for speed and punch efficiency (Strength). They also strengthen your bone structure.

 

In the end it's all in the vectors.

[YT2095]

it also depends on your target also (seems to have been overlooked so far here). there is no particular advantage to being either stronger or faster, the damage done relies 50% on your target.

 

think of hiting a blade of grass with a baseball bat, then hit the same blade with a paper clip in an elastic band.

what causes the most damage?

now do the same to a plank of wood

[gaara]

ive been taught that a wing chun punch is more of a pushing punch.. rather than like a boxers punch.

 

i dont really see the point of the push in comparison to the benefits to a hard, sharp, wrist locked, snapping punch.

[Psycho]

ive been taught that a wing chun punch is more of a pushing punch.. rather than like a boxers punch.

 

i dont really see the point of the push in comparison to the benefits to a hard' date=' sharp, wrist locked, snapping punch.[/quote']

It is suppost to be used in combination with other moves and therefore a push would knock you off balance far more meaning you can't defend yourself.