Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 Ok, imagine you had an infinite deck of cards of random faces - one of those cards has a picture of you on it. The chances of course are absolutely ziltch of you ever picking out the right card - but suppose as a fluke, or miracle, you manage to pick the right card, we would say (?) the chances of you picking the right card was 1 in an infinity. Let's change the situation and the rules slightly. This time we have a second deck of cards as well as the first deck of cards. In the second deck of cards, you have an infinite amount of blank cards. In the first pack, still an infinite amount of faces. This time you are not looking for your face specifically, this time finding any face on a card will do. Picking a card, you get a face card: So... 1. you had an infinite amount of cards that you could have found a face on 2. You had an infinite amount of cards you couldn't have found a face on What are the chances you would have found a card with a face on it?
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: Ok, imagine you had an infinite deck of cards of random faces - one of those cards has a picture of you on it. The chances of course are absolutely ziltch of you ever picking out the right card - but suppose as a fluke, or miracle, you manage to pick the right card, we would say (?) the chances of you picking the right card was 1 in an infinity. Let's change the situation and the rules slightly. This time we have a second deck of cards as well as the first deck of cards. In the second deck of cards, you have an infinite amount of blank cards. In the first pack, still an infinite amount of faces. This time you are not looking for your face specifically, this time finding any face on a card will do. Picking a card, you get a face card: So... 1. you had an infinite amount of cards that you could have found a face on 2. You had an infinite amount of cards you couldn't have found a face on What are the chances you would have found a card with a face on it? The first thing I need to ask is whether you mean "probability" when you use the word "chance" in your second sentence and the last sentence? Let's be clear: There are well-known complex mathematics employed when seeking to calculate the probability of an event or outcome. I learned this in my two semesters of Probability and Statistics.
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 Yes... I don't actually equate the two - probability can be completely deterministic. In this case, above, I want us to think purely in cases, of ''what is the chance this and that will happen'' in terms of a probability of it happening.
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 Is this thread intended to complement the 0÷0 one? Surely the answer is undefined (without a definition of how it can be approacehed by limits)?
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) Oh no, it's not an operation I am doing in the OP, and I am certainly beyond the sillyness of statements like 0/0. You can arrange them in a particular way, that it depends on how the infinities are stacked on each other. You could assume they are equally divided... this is a good question and requires someone with good mathematical knowledge to answer it. If they are equally divided, does this effect the statistics so that the chance becomes something other than 1 in infinity? Edited September 30, 2017 by Dubbelosix
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: Yes... I don't actually equate the two - probability can be completely deterministic. In this case, above, I want us to think purely in cases, of ''what is the chance this and that will happen'' in terms of a probability of it happening. I can't resolve "in terms of a probability of it happening" with the words that precede them. You have dragged in the exact subject that I ask you about specifically. Do you wish to exclude the entirety of the mathematics and methods used to calculate probabilities? You imply yes, then imply no in the same sentence. This we all can agree is a source of difficulty and probable confusion in the reader of such a sentence. (eggshells trampled under foot.) Edited September 30, 2017 by scherado -1
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: You can arrange them in a particular way, that it depends on how the infinities are stacked on each other. You could assume they are equally divided... this is a good question and requires someone with good mathematical knowledge to answer it. Well, it can obviously be approached through limits, but that would a require a definition of each of the functions. Otherwise I can't see how the answer is anything other than "undefined" (or meaningless).
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Strange said: Well, it can obviously be approached through limits, but that would a require a definition of each of the functions. Otherwise I can't see how the answer is anything other than "undefined" (or meaningless). Explain what you mean by undefined? You understand the situation, I have given you two infinities, from which you can pick any card. It's an unphysical situation, then yes, but its a thought-experiment which does have a mathematical explanation somewhere outside of whether it is plausible. 22 minutes ago, scherado said: I can't resolve "in terms of a probability of it happening" with the words that precede them. You have dragged in the exact subject that I ask you about specifically. Do you wish to exclude the entirety of the mathematics and methods used to calculate probabilities? You imply yes, then imply no in the same sentence. This we all can agree is a source of difficulty and probable confusion in the reader of such a sentence. (eggshells trampled under foot.) I don't know what you mean, you might be a mathematician, and if you have picked up on something I haven't, then explain with clarity please. In physics, a physicist uses the words, 'probability' and 'chance of occurring'' as equally the same thing. I thought initially you meant chance may have a difference meaning with probability, in which case it can in physics again. Chance is something we associate to random systems and probabilities, like a wave function, doesn't need to be random at all. But you didn't mean this so it doesn't matter. Consider then, the cards are an ''infinite mix'' a good question would be, does the probability become 50-50? Edited September 30, 2017 by Dubbelosix
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: Explain what you mean by undefined? There is no mathematical way of calculating it. 16 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: which does have a mathematical explanation Which is?
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 Also, does it matter if you can mix them any way you like?
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 15 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: Explain what you mean by undefined? ... Do you mean explain what the several text-books that I used in college meant by "undefined?" I most certainly mean "it is not permitted in mathematics." This thread by your own words is not about the proscription of dividing by zero.
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Strange said: There is no mathematical way of calculating it. Ok, so explain why there is no way of calculating the odds of my proposal? 1 minute ago, scherado said: Do you mean explain what the several text-books that I used in college meant by "undefined?" I most certainly mean "it is not permitted in mathematics." This thread by your own words is not about the proscription of dividing by zero. Yes, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 Just now, Dubbelosix said: Ok, so explain why there is no way of calculating the odds of my proposal? I was just about to get to that: I was explaining that there is a world of difference in being able to calculate a probability and pondering "chance" in the clouds.
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Dubbelosix said: Ok, so explain why there is no way of calculating the odds of my proposal? Without a definition of the functions that "go to infinity", you are trying to divide infinity by infinity. But infinity is not a number so this is undefined/meaningless. You haven't provide enough information to apply limits and so there is nothing to calculate. I gathered from your other threads that you know a lot of mathematics. So feel free to show us how it is done.
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 I have no idea what you are talking about. Just now, Strange said: Without a definition of the functions that "go to infinity", you are trying to divide infinity by infinity. But infinity is not a number so this is undefined/meaningless. You haven't provide enough information to apply limits and so there is nothing to calculate. I gathered from your other threads that you know a lot of mathematics. So feel free to show us how it is done. I am not dividing an infinity by any infinity, go read the OP again.
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 Just now, Dubbelosix said: I have no idea what you are talking about. Who? With regard to what?
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 It is completely legal to mix two infinities of the same magnitude as far as I am aware. I may not be a mathematician, but common... Just now, Strange said: Who? With regard to what? the other poster.
Strange Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: It is completely legal to mix two infinities of the same magnitude as far as I am aware. You cannot perform arithmetic on them. You must have studied calculus and limits? No? 2 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: the other poster. Ah yes. That is a common problem. (I am slightly worried by the fact I seem to be on the same "side" as him!) Edited September 30, 2017 by Strange
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) There is no arithmetic being performed! It's a thought experiment, the experiment has already been set up. The situation is clear, you are picking a number from infinity, then I am asking if the statistics change in a mixed infinite deck, I haven't asked you to do any operations, we have been over this already. Edited September 30, 2017 by Dubbelosix
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: ... You understand the situation, I have given you two infinities, from which you can pick any card. It's an unphysical situation, then yes, but its a thought-experiment which does have a mathematical explanation somewhere outside of whether it is plausible. ... But you have promised something you can't provide. This means I can't participate in the thought-experiment. Do you know that when you promise that I can "pick any card", that you are making an empty (impossible) promise? My choice of card is: the one at the bottom of the stack. My alternate choice is the one a the top of the stack. Edited September 30, 2017 by scherado -1
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Strange said: Ah yes. That is a common problem. (I am slightly worried by the fact I seem to be on the same "side" as him!) That's because you and him haven't understood the problem. You keep talking about undefined processes and dividing infinity by infinity, none of that has anything to do with my question. 1 minute ago, scherado said: But you have promised something you can't provide. This means I can't participate in the thought-experiment. Do you know that when you promise that I can "pick any card", that you are making an empty (impossible) promise. My choice of card is: the one at the end of the bottom of the stack. It does have a mathematical explanation because I can't understand a situation where it couldn't have a solution, not that I actually have one. If the statement that picking the correct card from an infinite deck, is 1 in infinity, (does anyone disagree with that), then it [should] be possible to explain my extended question, of whether an infinite mixed deck changes the statistics.
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: ... 5 minutes ago, scherado said: But you have promised something you can't provide. This means I can't participate in the thought-experiment. Do you know that when you promise that I can "pick any card", that you are making an empty (impossible) promise? My choice of card is: the one at the bottom of the stack. My alternate choice is the one a the top of the stack. It does have a mathematical explanation because I can't understand a situation where it couldn't have a solution, not that I actually have one. ... Does that sentence refer to the quote of mine you placed before that sentence? 7 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: There is no arithmetic being performed! It's a thought experiment, the experiment has already been set up. The situation is clear, you are picking a number from infinity, then I am asking if the statistics change in a mixed infinite deck, I haven't asked you to do any operations, we have been over this already. My concise, clear objection to your thought-experiment does not require any mathematical calculation: I can NOT pick from the bottom of the stack, nor the top. -2
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 No one asked to pick from the top or bottom of anything. You are making up stuff as you go along.
scherado Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said: No one asked to pick from the top or bottom of anything. You are making up stuff as you go along. I didn't accuse you of asking me to pick from the top or bottom--I'm telling you that I can't pick any card which you made clear is what I am supposed to do. This means that I have accuse YOU of "making up stuff. I hope you understand the difference. You appear not to understand the difference.
Dubbelosix Posted September 30, 2017 Author Posted September 30, 2017 Are you going to continually neg rep me everytime I speak to you? I don't want a reputation like yours, I will ignore you totally.
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