Is it ethical to view men and women as different?

[Raider5678]

Not a political thing about if there is sexism or not.

Just curious if you guys think there are differences between men and women that are simply unavoidably there. 

[DrKrettin]

Anybody who denies that there are differences must be clinically insane. Anybody making value judgments based on those differences must be sexist.

[Raider5678]

Just now, DrKrettin said:

Anybody who denies that there are differences must be clinically insane. Anybody making value judgments based on those differences must be sexist.

I largely agree with this statement. 

I saw a story that a male fighter decided he wanted to identify as a woman. They allowed it and he went into the women's fighting group and proceeded to cause severe traumatic injuries to a woman he fought. She stated, "I've never felt so overpowered in my life."

 You have to note both of there people were professionally trained fighters. No some random dude against a trained woman.  Or vice versa. Do you think this is perfectly okay that he was able to simply switch fighting groups or not? And if so, do you think it's okay that there are different groups for men and different groups for women inside of most physical sports?

[Phi for All]

There are situations as above where differences in gender between humans change the outcome (although it's not consistent - not every professionally trained man can outfight every professionally trained woman). There are situations where it makes no difference at all.

In sports, I think ethics are next to impossible to judge with so much competition around. Extreme winning tactics and fair play are not always compatible. But women regularly beat men in equestrian sports, long-distance swimming, rock-climbing, motor sports, and most gymnastics. 

The sport makes all the difference. Tailor it to showcase strength and speed and it will feature the strongest and fastest. 

[Lord Antares]

That case has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with the retarded ''transgender'' policies. Blame on the proggressively ''proggressive'' society. I'm glad I don't live in a ''first world'' country.

[Raider5678]

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

There are situations as above where differences in gender between humans change the outcome (although it's not consistent - not every professionally trained man can outfight every professionally trained woman). There are situations where it makes no difference at all.

In sports, I think ethics are next to impossible to judge with so much competition around. Extreme winning tactics and fair play are not always compatible. But women regularly beat men in equestrian sports, long-distance swimming, rock-climbing, motor sports, and most gymnastics. 

The sport makes all the difference. Tailor it to showcase strength and speed and it will feature the strongest and fastest. 

But that would lead to a premise unless I'm wrong.(I'm trying to use a logical system. Forgive me if I use this the wrong way).

Premise 1:  In some sports, women outperform men, and in others men outperform women.

Premise 2: Premise one is a generalization, not a absolute. 

Premise 3: In sports where men outperform women, there should be different groups, and in sports where women outperform men, there should be different groups. To keep things on an equal playing field.

So by premise 3, that would mean having different groups is appropriate, depending on the sport. 

But that leads to premise 4.

Premise 4: A physically born male should not be able to compete with physically born females, and vice versa. As this would lead to unfair advantages/disadvantages.

 

So I feel like all 4 of those premises are true. Do you agree?(Mainly I used the premises to show my train of thought since it's easier to say "premise 3 is wrong" or something like that than to try and pick out the particular part of it.)

16 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

That case has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with the retarded ''transgender'' policies. Blame on the proggressively ''proggressive'' society. I'm glad I don't live in a ''first world'' country.

What??

You mean the multiple boys at my school going into the girl's bathroom as practical jokes aren't progress? What are you saying?

Honestly, if they really really really want to be able to let guys into girls bathrooms and vice versa, they should make up some rules. Like, you can't switch your gender every day.

[Lord Antares]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

Premise 4: A physically born male should not be able to compete with physically born females, and vice versa. As this would lead to unfair advantages/disadvantages.

And they don't. Male fighters don't fight with female fighters. Pretty much every sport will have separated sex groups.

You're not saying anything new. Anyone reasonable will scould that sort of ''transgender'' exploit.

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

And they don't. Male fighters don't fight with female fighters. Pretty much every sport will have separated sex groups.

You're not saying anything new. Anyone reasonable will scould that sort of ''transgender'' exploit.

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-mma-fighter-destroys-female-opponent/

So not liberals?

[Lord Antares]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

So not liberals?

As you may have already gathered, the majority of ultra liberals are mentally retarded.

[Raider5678]

16 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

As you may have already gathered, the majority of ultra liberals are mentally retarded.

Anyways, back on track.

If we can look at men and women as different, then does that mean it's sexist?

[HB of CJ]

There are distinct differences between male and female.  Evolution has provided us with two sub species.  To deny such is silly and perhaps dangerous.

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, HB of CJ said:

There are distinct differences between male and female.  Evolution has provided us with two sub species.  To deny such is silly and perhaps dangerous.

What about transgender then?

If a male is different than a female, should they be interchangeable?

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Not a political thing about if there is sexism or not.

Just curious if you guys think there are differences between men and women that are simply unavoidably there. 

Yes and context matter if one wants to ask how to deal with it.

 

1 hour ago, HB of CJ said:

There are distinct differences between male and female.  Evolution has provided us with two sub species.  To deny such is silly and perhaps dangerous.

That is not what subspecies are.

 

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Anyways, back on track.

If we can look at men and women as different, then does that mean it's sexist?

How do you define sexism? Note that there is a difference between sexism and misogyny or misandry. As such, sexism exists on a spectrum. A good quote that I heard is "Sexism is judging people by their sex when sex doesn't matter". 

[Raider5678]

37 minutes ago, CharonY said:

"Sexism is judging people by their sex when sex doesn't matter". 

 

If that's what sexism was considered as by feminists, then that'd be great.

At the moment, sexism is a guy sitting on a subway with his legs spread.

Clearly. If you're male, you're evil.

Because 100% of males send dick pictures when they aren't asked for them.

Because 100% of males like the notebook, and are just afraid to admit it because we're too scared of appearing non-masculine.

Because 100% of males love Beyonce.

Because 100% of males make catcalls at women.

Because 100% of males say that catcalls are okay by men because they can't control themselves(I've never heard a guy say this. Just saying.)

Because 100% of males make jokes about women, and 0% of women make jokes about men(from what I've seen, both sides make jokes about each other. Most of them don't care. Except for some insulted males and some insulted females.)

Because 100% of males think that if they're nice to a woman she has to sleep with him.

You get my drift.

Now, this video has been widely criticized. But,  there are a few things I'd like to point out.

 

A lot of the dislikes were most likely by men(you can disagree if you want.)

12.93% of people actually agreed with this video. Pointing to the large prevalence of feminists being much more radical than just a few of them being radical.

 

I don't have anything against women. I, however, find something ridiculous about that video.

 

 

[hypervalent_iodine]

3 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

As you may have already gathered, the majority of ultra liberals are mentally retarded.

 

!

Moderator Note

A few things. Firstly, your use of language - specifically your use of the word retarded - needs to change. Secondly, the rules of this forum specifically prohibit members from slurring an entire group of people as you have done. If you can't contribute anything intelligent (or additive at the very least) to the discussion, I would ask that you don't bother contributing. 

 

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

 

!

Moderator Note

A few things. Firstly, your use of language - specifically your use of the word retarded - needs to change. Secondly, the rules of this forum specifically prohibit members from slurring an entire group of people as you have done. If you can't contribute anything intelligent (or additive at the very least) to the discussion, I would ask that you don't bother contributing. 

 

If I can pull up some references from other discussions where Republicans were called retarded can you give them warnings too?

[hypervalent_iodine]

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

If I can pull up some references from other discussions where Republicans were called retarded can you give them warnings too?

 

!

Moderator Note

We have a report feature for this. You are welcome to use it. Please do not respond to this note within the thread.

 

[Raider5678]

3 hours ago, HB of CJ said:

There are distinct differences between male and female.  Evolution has provided us with two sub species.  To deny such is silly and perhaps dangerous.

There are differences.

But they're the same species. And the majority of differences are in hormones and physical differences.

[MigL]

What is this thread about ?
A bunch of guys bitchin' and whining like the women in the video ?

Yes, men and women are different ( duuh ).
Both have various degrees of strengths and weaknesses ( evolution helped with that ).
The only problem is when one sex is considered better than the other

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

What is this thread about ?
A bunch of guys bitchin' and whining like the women in the video ?

Yes, men and women are different ( duuh ).
Both have various degrees of strengths and weaknesses ( evolution helped with that ).
The only problem is when one sex is considered better than the other

I hoped for genuine curiosity. But judging from the outline I should have known better.

Quote

If that's what sexism was considered as by feminists, then that'd be great.

The quote is from one of the early feminists, Caroline Bird. But obviously one cannot argue with a random youtube video (like, literally).

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by CharonY

[Raider5678]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

What is this thread about ?

1

One thing I learned avidly about inside of school is that boys and girls are one and the same and both are equal. Not only that, but they should also not be treated any different or thought of in any way that indicates that they are anything else but exactly the same.

To this, I believe there was a change that should be looked into.

When girls and boys are expected to be exactly the same they're held to the same standard.

And I'll tell you this. There's a difference between guys and girls.

Girls like certain things and guys like other things.

This psychology article outlines 4 major differences in the brain between the male and female gender.

https://gostream.is/film/star-trek-2009-3026/watching.html?ep=788729

 

At my school, there is a huge prevalence of depression. Extremely bad.

There is a cause for this, and I'm starting to think that it's in the idea that boys and girls should be treated the same.

 

Which is what I'd like to debate. That article shows some differences between male and female psychology. Given that there are differences, should they be held to the same standard as each other? And by standard, I don't mean like grades or stuff like that. I mean how they act, how they behave, how they think. 

Boys are expected to "ignore feelings" more than girls. But when they're told they're the same, and that girls are just as strong as boys and should deal with their emotions, this article suggests there may be a problem with that.

 

So starting with a very simple detachment of what I originally wished to discuss.

Should girls be expected to brush off their emotions like guys, should guys be expected to cultivate their feelings more, or should we let them go to operate how they are mentally wired to think?

Does this create advantages/disadvantages, and is it possible this is a partial cause of the large depression epidemic in my generation?

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I hoped for genuine curiosity. But judging from the outline I should have known better.

The quote is from one of the early feminists, Caroline Bird. But obviously one cannot argue with a random youtube video (like, literally).

 

Genuine curiosity is still in ethics.

Depression is a terrible thing to have and I know you wouldn't disagree. I provided an article, just now, and I'd like to know if you think treating them the same is contributing to larger depression rates or not.  If it is, I'm willing to take the position that we should start to rethink the whole "boys and girls are the same" ideal.

As for that random youtube video, it was meant to draw attention to the current setup of how my generation seems to think about gender equality. And that is that we're exactly the same mentally, and what one can handle, the other can handle just as easily.

 

[CharonY]

9 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

This psychology article outlines 4 major differences in the brain between the male and female gender.

There have been many threads in which gender differences in the brain have been discussed. The real question is how big are these differences and do they justify societal differences. Most research is not conclusive in that regard. Most of the societal aspects you mention later in your post (but did not outline earlier) seem to be the result of gender roles characteristic of a patriarchic gender roles (you have only focused on a few aspects, though there are others with different ramifications). However, your anecdotes at your school specifically may be about something else entirely. 

As a whole I do find the posts somewhat incoherent, though.

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by CharonY

[scherado]

There are many reasons that a person should not ignore the differences between men and women when choosing another person of the same sex in one context and a person of a different sex in another context.

I will give two examples. When an adult man mentions that he is seeing a therapist, I ask, "Oh, that's nice, how old is he?" If the man tells me, oh, it's a woman and the man is your garden-variety heterosexual man, then I ask him whether that's a good idea.

I tell him this:

1. There is no bleeping way the woman therapist knows the trials and tribulations of having a penis. You might think, what if he's not there for sexual issues? On the slim chance that there's no issue there, I then go to #2.

2. Many men are quite skilled at getting women to "mother" them. Some make entire lifestyles out it.

3. There must be no chance the the therapist will become sexually attracted to you the patient. Some people don't have to worry about that, though they may be surprised.

Now, if you take these considerations into a sponsor/sponsee relationship in one of the 12-step, self-help program, Alcoholics Anonymous, for example, then these considerations become a matter of life or death. The differences between men and women become essential and "the men stick with the men", the "woman stick with the woman." The homosexuals and bisexuals have different issues. What's prudent is that a male doesn't get a bisexual or homosexual sponsor; similarly for woman.

[EdEarl]

Quote

Wikipedia: Human Genetic Variation

No two humans are genetically identical. On average, in terms of DNA sequence, each human is 99.5% similar to any other human.

This article ignores the differences in the sexes. Men and women are not 99.5% different, but closer to 96% different, or about the same as between humans and chimpanzees. This difference is medically important, because men and women suffer from different conditions and ailments. For example:

Quote

Alzheimer's Net

Aside from the fact that 60% of all Alzheimer’s caregivers are women, at the age of 65, women have a 1 in 6 chance of developing Alzheimer’s, compared to a 1 in 11 chance for men.

Alzheimer's isn't the only one, there are many such differences. Sex differences are in every cell of women (XX) and men (XY), not just in sexual organs. Personally, I love these differences; have been married for over 30 years.

YES men and women are different, and it is necessary and ethically just to act differently with men and women. However, there are limits. Traditionally, women have been denied rights and justice. For example, women have been considered property of men, and some still are. That in my opinion is not ethically just, in general, but if a woman knowingly and willingly marries a man who treats his wife as property, then so be it. If I criticized, both would tell me to get lost--none of my business.

In my opinion, there is no simple answer to the OP.

[DrKrettin]

13 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

In my opinion, there is no simple answer to the OP.

The answer to the thread title is extremely simple: yes