Mass shooting Las Vegas, Oct. 2. 2017

[scherado]

I was in a Danbury, CT (USA) hospital the day Adam Lanza murdered all those people, kids, adults at Sandy Elementary School, CT December 2012. We were in lock-down. That was a mass-shooting that was, subsequently, not categorized as terrorism.

All I know is that, if the man, Stephen Paddock, left a "manifesto", note or some such to be read in the hotel room or wherever, then the authorities know what we have not yet been told. I want to know his "reasons". I demand it, as we all should.

[rangerx]

The Las Vegas shooting demolishes the NRA’s “good guy with a gun” argument. It was absurd then, yet how can this statement have any credibility moving forward?

Apparently the NRA never heard of positions of advantage as we saw in Las Vegas.

 

Can you imagine the pandemonium if everyone was armed with handguns attempted to shoot back? Clearly everyone else in the hotel would have been at a greater risk.

 

According to Donald Trump, a minority person conspiring to murder people is a branded a terrorist for plotting an attack, even if they never carried it out. He openly advocated bombing their otherwise innocent families. Yet a white citizen with ammonium nitrate in his car and multiple cases of modified or illegal automatic weapons shooting nearly six hundred people at random in a public setting isn't a terrorist? If that's not a classic example of white privilege, then what is it?
 

1 hour ago, scherado said:

All I know is that, if the man, Stephen Paddock, left a "manifesto", note or some such to be read in the hotel room or wherever, then the authorities know what we have not yet been told. I want to know his "reasons". I demand it, as we all should.

Agreed, but motive is beside the point. It wasn't an accident. His objective was to scare, injure and murder.
 

Has the attack and responses to Sandy Hook made mass shootings mainstream?

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by rangerx

[MigL]

Leave it to you to make this about white privilege.

Did he terrorize those people, as well as injuring and killing a large number of them, and making the rest of us afraid of attending public events ?
He certainly did.
So he is a terrorist !

And since when have you ( or anyone else ) cared about what D Trump says anymore ?
This shouldn't be about scoring cheap political points ( should I call you Patton Oswalt ? )
It is a tragedy, and the American government has to wake up and do something about their gun laws.

[rangerx]

 

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

And since when have you ( or anyone else ) cared about what D Trump says anymore ?
This shouldn't be about scoring cheap political points ( should I call you Patton Oswalt ? )
It is a tragedy, and the American government has to wake up and do something about their gun laws.

If the shooter was brown, Trump would scream terror from the rooftops and his minions would parrot it loudly and angrily.

I don't need a ton of bricks to fall on my head to know that his deliberate avoidance of the word terrorist was to score points with the NRA and the meager remaining 30% of his base, yet the problem is laid at my feet? Pfft.

He's supposed to be a president. When will he start behaving like one? It's not about political points, it's about the truth. Do you deny my point about the hair trigger terrorist epithets he hurls at other groups?

Patton Oswald? WTF does that have to do with price of tea in China, or is that just a cheap shot?

As to the tragedy, we are in agreement. If Trump doesn't wake up, then how do you expect the rest of the country to do so?

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by rangerx

[beecee]

Speaking as an outsider from a country with Gun control laws, I observe the fact that Americans in general, and particularly their government/congress, lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the NRA. This mob rightly or wrongly remind me of that hateful orginization called the Klu Klux Klan.

My commiserations to all in your country that have unnecessarily and needlessly lost loved ones.  

Edited October 3, 2017 by beecee

[rangerx]

26 minutes ago, beecee said:

Speaking as an outsider from a country with Gun control laws, I observe the fact that Americans in general, and particularly their government/congress, lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the NRA. This mob rightly or wrongly remind me of that hateful orginization called the Klu Klux Klan.

My commiserations to all in your country that have unnecessarily and needlessly lost loved ones.  

Agreed, wholeheartedly. The NRA and it's government payola recipients claim it's not the time for this discussion. The Cloumbine massacre was 18 years ago, yet the USA hasn't found the time to have the discussion, unless of course one overlooks the fact gun advocates wasted no time staging Hollywood's Charlton Heston for a pro-gun rally... in Colorado. Sandy Hook made mass shootings mainstream and apparently an inevitable, if not acceptable consequence of hoarding guns.

My brother and his wife live in Orange County. They recently retired and embarked on trip on Route 66. They were in Vegas last night, but not at the event itself. It was disquieting nonetheless, until we heard from them. There were Canadians among the casualties and likely others from other countries. My heart goes out to all of them and their families.

[scherado]

6 hours ago, rangerx said:

I don't need a ton of bricks to fall on my head to know that his deliberate avoidance of the word terrorist was to score points with the NRA and the meager remaining 30% of his base, yet the problem is laid at my feet? Pfft.

Did you read the first sentence of my OP? I italicized the word "not" preceding " categorized as terrorism" for the mass-shooting at the elementary school by A.Lanza to highlight the very significant difference between one class of murder and another.

If or when I start a thread on radical Islamic terrorism or if it is determined that Stephen Paddock converted to Islam as the detestable ISIS group has claimed--I don't believe their assertions--

I'm sure that the woman who is or was identified as a "person of interest" and who, as of my current understanding, was his "girlfriend", I'm sure that she knows what how to categorize her deceased lover's crime.

4 hours ago, rangerx said:

The Cloumbine massacre was 18 years ago, yet the USA hasn't found the time to have the discussion, unless of course one overlooks the fact gun advocates wasted no time staging Hollywood's Charlton Heston for a pro-gun rally... in Colorado. Sandy Hook made mass shootings mainstream and apparently an inevitable, if not acceptable consequence of hoarding guns.

Adam Lanza idolized the two mass-murders that you alluded to--in complete ignorance, apparently--when you broached the topic of the Columbine mass-shooting. I read that Lanza was obsessed with a documentary film about the Columbine massacre.

From The Atlantic, Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?

The vast majority of the Islamic State’s claimed attacks were undertaken by men acting in its name, often after leaving short video statements confirming their intentions. The Amaq news agency is the preferred venue for the initial claim, usually within a day. (Sloppy reporters sometimes mistake the rejoicing of online supporters, meteorological or not, for an official claim.) If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false. Amaq may learn details of the attacks from mainstream media—and often gets those details wrong, also like mainstream media—but its claim of credit typically flows from an Amaq-specific source.

I repeat, those who are scouring the dead shooter's electronic devices found at his home, his internet presence, if any, and whatever writings, sometimes the "manifesto", those people now know, probably, what do not know.

The silence is defeaning.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by scherado

[scherado]

The Islamic State propaganda arm Amaq asserts that Paddock has converted to Islam and gave his Islamic name. Those who follow the "official" propaganda organ Amaq assert that most of their claims are warranted.

From rappler.com ISIS 'sanctioned, if not directed' Resorts World attack

“It isn’t true that ISIS has a history of claiming others’ attacks as their own,” added Jones. “There’s usually a basis for it, even though their media departments don’t always get the details right.”

“The propaganda organs of ISIS such as Amaq exaggerate but do not falsely take credit for attacks mounted by other entities,” said Gunaratna, who, based on his study of ISIS, warned Philippine authorities of possible attacks a month before Resorts World and Marawi. (READ: ISIS planning more attacks in PH and region - terror expert)

[DrP]

Whatever his reasons were for doing it - it is another advert to sort your outdated gun laws out.

Whatever his reason, Islamic terrorist, white supremacist, mentally handicapped, disgruntled asshole.... if it happened anywhere else we would be saying 'how did he get all those weapons? - this is terrible' - as I is it is just another day in the life for the USA and their outdated gun laws. (I was going to say retarded gun laws but the mods frown on the use of the word  -  but I feel that it is apt here by definition of the word  -  the laws are so far out of date and behind the rest of the civilised world that I can think of no better word than retarded - meaning backward, held back, out of date and behind with the times.) 

 

 

 

[scherado]

29 minutes ago, DrP said:

Whatever his reasons were for doing it - it is another advert to sort your outdated gun laws out.

Which do you mean? Or do you mean the Second Amendment of the US Constitution?

I can tell you that you might wish you had a firearm very soon in Britain, depending upon where you sit, in the not-so-distance future. I have written off your nation, it has been going on....I think, 4 years now. I'm referring to your level of Sharia compliance. Do you know what I mean?

This brings up the timely question: When will you be requiring the U.S. of A. to rescue either you Europeans or you British in particular when the conflagration, aka breakdown in civil society begins? I need to plan my future. In many of the European countries the deterioration is at a critical stage. In other words, the state of our gun laws is a preposterous subject in comparison to your breakdown of civil society. I will use three words:

No Go Zones.

[DrP]

39 minutes ago, scherado said:

Which do you mean?

Whichever ones allow random people to go to a shop and buy guns and ammo without background checks on the person.

40 minutes ago, scherado said:

I can tell you that you might wish you had a firearm very soon in Britain, depending upon where you sit, in the not-so-distance future. I have written off your nation, it has been going on....I think, 4 years now. I'm referring to your level of Sharia compliance. Do you know what I mean?

This brings up the timely question: When will you be requiring the U.S. of A. to rescue either you Europeans or you British in particular when the conflagration, aka breakdown in civil society begins? I need to plan my future. In many of the European countries the deterioration is at a critical stage. In other words, the state of our gun laws is a preposterous subject in comparison to your breakdown of civil society.

I think you are deluded here - Sharia law will never take hold in the west - that is ridiculous fear mongering. People aren't so thick as that to allow it. People are waking up all over the world to the ignorance of all religions... they don't believe it any more as science explains clearly what was once attributed to god.  No way will Islam ever take over. Sure - there are still a few wars to fight and some barbaric acts of terrorism to come from all sides I am sure...  but we will win through for common sense and common goodness for sure.

...also - even if there was a rise in Islamic terrorists in the UK...  I am pretty relieved that they can't buy guns from shops. It's a no brainer.

[scherado]

35 minutes ago, DrP said:

Whichever ones allow random people to go to a shop and buy guns and ammo without background checks on the person.

I think you are deluded here - Sharia law will never take hold in the west - that is ridiculous fear mongering. People aren't so thick as that to allow it. People are waking up all over the world to the ignorance of all religions... they don't believe it any more as science explains clearly what was once attributed to god.  No way will Islam ever take over. Sure - there are still a few wars to fight and some barbaric acts of terrorism to come from all sides I am sure...  but we will win through for common sense and common goodness for sure.

...also - even if there was a rise in Islamic terrorists in the UK...  I am pretty relieved that they can't buy guns from shops. It's a no brainer.

The west? Britain, France, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Spain.

The ignorance of all religions? It's the violence and suppression of a particular religious faction that has a strangle hold on many places called no go zones in France, Britain, Sweden, Germany and Belgium. It's been in the news for years.

[DrP]

6 minutes ago, scherado said:

The west? Britain, France, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Spain.

The ignorance of all religions? It's the violence and suppression of a particular religious faction that has a strangle hold on many places called no go zones in France, Britain, Sweden, Germany and Belgium. It's been in the news for years.

I have never heard of these no go zones...  I looked them up briefly, the first hit I got was below -  seems like fake news, made up propaganda from the right as usual to spread fear and hatred..   although I'd need to check further =- I wouldn't be surprised if there were hot spots everywhere.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/04/brits-tell-bigots-about-the-real-british-no-go-areas-6684831/

 

Says in that article that the bigots were ridiculed. ;-)   There are places in every city in every country were you don't walk around by yourself after dark. I'd rather walk though London at night around the back streets than anywhere in the USA where the muggers can get guns. There aren't many places here I wouldn't go. We all know that Islam has an agenda...  so what? We won't let it happen. What we don't want is to be controlled by fear as a kneejerk reaction to their BS. Religion is finished as a way of controlling the masses...  We are seeing it's death throws all over the world. Proper education of the masses will see to it's final death ...  maybe gradually over the next 100 years or so imo. Who knows - we will be long gone before the worlds problems are sorted out.

 

[Juno]

35 minutes ago, DrP said:

I have never heard of these no go zones...  I looked them up briefly, the first hit I got was below -  seems like fake news, made up propaganda from the right as usual to spread fear and hatred..   although I'd need to check further =- I wouldn't be surprised if there were hot spots everywhere.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/04/brits-tell-bigots-about-the-real-british-no-go-areas-6684831/

 

Says in that article that the bigots were ridiculed. ;-)   There are places in every city in every country were you don't walk around by yourself after dark. I'd rather walk though London at night around the back streets than anywhere in the USA where the muggers can get guns. There aren't many places here I wouldn't go. We all know that Islam has an agenda...  so what? We won't let it happen. What we don't want is to be controlled by fear as a kneejerk reaction to their BS. Religion is finished as a way of controlling the masses...  We are seeing it's death throws all over the world. Proper education of the masses will see to it's final death ...  maybe gradually over the next 100 years or so imo. Who knows - we will be long gone before the worlds problems are sorted out.

 

Agreed - I have been in cities in US in broad daylight where I certainly wouldn't walk around some areas by myself - not an experience I've ever had in London despite living there for a number of years.  As DrP says, there aren't many places in the UK I wouldn't happily walk around by myself.  That business around "no go zones" was laughable, and something that could only come from people who've never actually spent time in the UK.  As is the idea that Sharia is getting any kind of foothold in the UK outside of Muslim communities themselves.  

It does make me wonder where those attitudes come from, because they're clearly not based in any reality about life in the UK.  Is it the US trying to make themselves feel better about the fact that their gun problem is out of control?  It does seem to me like things are so far gone in the US (too many people in the gun business, too many millions of guns out there) for them to ever be able to roll back to anything like the way other countries deal with guns.

[scherado]

43 minutes ago, DrP said:

I have never heard of these no go zones...  I looked them up briefly, the first hit I got was below -  seems like fake news, made up propaganda from the right as usual to spread fear and hatred..   although I'd need to check further =- I wouldn't be surprised if there were hot spots everywhere.

I'm well aware of places where one doesn't go day or night in the USA. A no go zone is a place where police, fireman and emergency people don't go. Do you know the difference? If the same happens here in the USA--there are no "no-go zones" in the USA--that is when we all here get out our personal guns--if we have them, I do not possess any--and take back the country.

1 minute ago, Juno said:

Agreed - I have been in cities in US in broad daylight

Please see my reply to "DrP"  above. Thanks.

[DrP]

1 minute ago, Juno said:

 Is it the US trying to make themselves feel better about the fact that their gun problem is out of control?  It does seem to me like things are so far gone in the US...

Maybe. Who knows why people make up fake news.

2 minutes ago, scherado said:

A no go zone is a place where police, fireman and emergency people don't go. Do you know the difference?

There are no places that the police will not go to if they are called out in an emergency. They will take an armed response team if necessary. Where are these supposed no go areas?  Where did you hear about them?

3 minutes ago, scherado said:

 If the same happens here in the USA--there are no "no-go zones" in the USA--that is when we all here get out our personal guns--if we have them, I do not possess any--and take back the country.

 Sounds like some shithole...  not a civilised 1st world society. If there is trouble here we call the police and they turn up and sort it out. If the perp has a gun he is warned and then shot if non compliant. Arming everyone is asking for trouble...  as your death rate due to guns testifies very well.

 

[scherado]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

Arming everyone is asking for trouble...  as your death rate due to guns testifies very well.

What do you mean? Did you not read the part that I don't own a firearm? I can assure you that there are more than a few who DO NOT own firearms in the US.

[MigL]

I see someone disagrees with my assertion that this is not to be attributed to D Trump, but rather an on-going problem with American gun laws. Maybe I should clarify my stance.
( or maybe my admonishment of RangerX for doing so ? )

D trump just got here.
B Obama didn't do any thing about these laws that allow people to buy guns and ammo to kill/injure over 500 people.
Nor did G W Bush.
Nor  B Clinton before him.
Nor Bush senior or any presidents that preceded him since the Constitution was enacted.

Saying the problem is due to one person/president is ignoring the actual problem ( and an attempt at political one-upmanship ).
D trump has a multitude of faults, we don't need to 'make up' more to avoid dealing with the real issue.

Edited October 3, 2017 by MigL

[Airbrush]

Interesting that Trump called it "pure evil" at first, then it was a "demented" man.  Dementia is not evil.  He didn't use the word "delusional" because that is what Trump is.

Modern high-rise buildings, like Mandalay Bay, have windows that don't open.  The only way to shoot out of a window is to BREAK the window.  There should now be sensors in every high-rise window to detect it is being broken.  This could be a cheap fix.   Then security will know exactly WHICH window was broken by an alarm.  Security could have stopped him in a FEW minutes, rather than the 10 to 15 minutes he had to shoot in full automatic.   A broken window may mean someone is jumping out, or someone or something is being thrown out, or shooter or bomber is getting started, or a fire has started.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Airbrush

[MigL]

Or he could go on the roof...

[Airbrush]

Opening a door leading to the roof should also set off a silent alarm.  The technology for sensory devices is getting better and cheaper all the time.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Airbrush

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, MigL said:

I see someone disagrees with my assertion that this is not to be attributed to D Trump, but rather an on-going problem with American gun laws. Maybe I should clarify my stance.
( or maybe my admonishment of RangerX for doing so ? )

D trump just got here.
B Obama didn't do any thing about these laws that allow people to buy guns and ammo to kill/injure over 500 people.
Nor did G W Bush.
Nor  B Clinton before him.
Nor Bush senior or any presidents that preceded him since the Constitution was enacted.

"Didn't do anything" is incorrect.

Obama, for instance,  

Quote

signed executive orders calling for mandatory criminal background checks on gun-buyers and several other measures that were unpopular in Congress including a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.

https://www.thoughtco.com/obama-gun-laws-passed-by-congress-3367595

(Trump rescinded an EO limiting access for the mentally ill)

Legislation is hard to do when you don't have the cooperation of congress. What would GW Bush and Trump's excuse be on that front?

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, MigL said:

I see someone disagrees with my assertion that this is not to be attributed to D Trump, but rather an on-going problem with American gun laws. Maybe I should clarify my stance.
( or maybe my admonishment of RangerX for doing so ? )

D trump just got here.
B Obama didn't do any thing about these laws wasn't successful in changing the laws that allow people to buy guns and ammo to kill/injure over 500 people.
Nor did G W Bush.
Nor  B Clinton before him.
Nor Bush senior or any presidents that preceded him since the Constitution was enacted.

Saying the problem is due to one person/president is ignoring the actual problem ( and an attempt at political one-upmanship ).
D trump has a multitude of faults, we don't need to 'make up' more to avoid dealing with the real issue.

x-posted with swansont

Edited October 3, 2017 by StringJunky

[DrP]

12 minutes ago, scherado said:

What do you mean? Did you not read the part that I don't own a firearm?

of course I did...  it was in response to your comment here: (underlined relevant comment).

 

24 minutes ago, scherado said:

If the same happens here in the USA--there are no "no-go zones" in the USA--that is when we all here get out our personal guns--if we have them, I do not possess any--and take back the country.

 

I don't see you owning or not owning a gun as relevant - the fact that SO many people own them or can just pop down to the shops to get them is the reason that there are so many thousands of deaths due to gun crime in your country. You don't seem to realise that people just do not have guns in most other countries. If the criminals have guns then they tend to shoot each other rather than innocent people.

 

[Juno]

51 minutes ago, scherado said:

I'm well aware of places where one doesn't go day or night in the USA. A no go zone is a place where police, fireman and emergency people don't go. Do you know the difference? If the same happens here in the USA--there are no "no-go zones" in the USA--that is when we all here get out our personal guns--if we have them, I do not possess any--and take back the country.

Hang on, so you're saying there are actually places in the US where the police will not actually go?  And you think the UK is the country that's in danger of a breakdown in civil society?  Can you see how bizarre that sounds from a country that doesn't have guns everywhere?

Edited October 3, 2017 by Juno