Mass shooting Las Vegas, Oct. 2. 2017

[scherado]

14 minutes ago, Juno said:

Where are you getting this 6000 figure from?

I won't make any conclusions about the approximate 1/3 cases "dropped" from the 6000+, for obvious reasons.

From bbc.com, a source that some Americans find as inappropriately biased as CNN, as I do:

"Increases in the number of rapes being recorded may mean that victims feel more confident in reporting what happened to them; or decreases may mean that victims are losing confidence in the authorities to treat them sensitively."

Inspector of Constabulary Dru Sharpling said there may be a range of explanations for regional variations in recorded rapes but that questions over victims being disbelieved had to be raised.

Policing practice developer Helen Hopwood said the figures highlighted "inconsistencies between forces about the outcome of rape investigations".

[John Cuthber]

41 minutes ago, scherado said:

UK is on verge of breakdown of civil society no matter whether they have no-go zones Look at the gang-rape obscenities I post about in this thread and the "grooming" gangs.

OK, I will have a brief look at them. They seem to be a bunch of shitty inadequate men.

Now, since the thread is about gun control, who do you think is more likely to have a gun (and, indeed, to know how to use it) 

Do you think it is:
Those  shits or
their victims?

And, for a bonus, you can tell us how guns make things better in this context.

 

 

[scherado]

This left intentionally blank. (I forgot about the one not permitted to be added to my ignore list--for some preposterous reason.)

Edited October 4, 2017 by scherado

[John Cuthber]

Just now, scherado said:

This thread is NOT about gun control. I started the thread, FYI

It's far from clear what the thread is about.
You can answer the question anyway.

Why are gangs of rapists with guns less of a problem that gangs of rapists without guns?

[DrP]

55 minutes ago, Juno said:

It's really not as scary a place as the US media is apparently making it sound.

I suppose if you vote in something akin to a right wing dictator then you are going to get lies and propaganda in your media. Sad really, but it is literally what these people voted for....  the rest of the world could see this BS coming a mile away.

On a plus note...  (and back on topic) - he DID say that he might look at the gun laws, or at least have a discussion about them soon.

36 minutes ago, scherado said:

 I do believe the the start date is possibly 7 years ago. There are ZERO comparative crimes in USA to the best of my knowledge.

Zero rapes in the USA over the last 7 years!?  You are totally deluded - I do not need to look that up to know you are talking shit here. Look it up  -  I'll wager with you that the figure is higher than the UK. I'll wager what ever you want that the figure is not zero in the last week let alone 7 years.. 

 

17 minutes ago, scherado said:

This left intentionally blank. (I forgot about the one not permitted to be added to my ignore list--for some preposterous reason.)

Are you talking about one of our chemistry experts?  lol.   He is a grumpy old fu(&er I'll agree...  but he does source his facts before posting and he is very knowledgeable about chemistry. He doesn't go out of his way to make any friends that's for sure, but I do respect his honesty and outspokenness.  I don't always share his opinions - but I appreciate his honesty, knowledge and intelligence.

Edited October 4, 2017 by DrP

[swansont]

 

16 hours ago, MigL said:

And obviously you know a lot more about new legislation in the US, but it seems that a moron like D Trump can do the things that are important to him ( or make him look good ) by Executive Order, but B Obama was stifled at every turn by a contrary Congress.

D Trump has passed very little legislation of any weight. Most of what he's "accomplished" is unwind what Obama had done via executive order.

16 hours ago, MigL said:

Why couldn't B Obama issue an EO to the ATF, so that anyone selling firearms, without the required checks, be fined ? Or more strictly enforcing magazine capacities, conversions from semi-auto to automatic fire, ammunition purchases, etc. ?

That's what he did, to the extent that he could. Did you read the article I linked to? I quoted the bit about his EOs. He also made 23 executive actions regarding guns. But some things require legislation. 

16 hours ago, MigL said:

These and other similar measures would, I believe. keep a deranged person from carrying more than a dozen semi-automatic rifles, and ammunition clips, into the 32nd floor of a busy hotel.

So, either B Obama didn't care enough ( like every other president before him ), after multiple mass-shootings under his watch, or I don't have Executive Orders figured out quite yet

Executive orders are limited to what powers are delegated to the President via the Constitution, or by Congress. He can tell government agencies how to go about their business, but his power to directly tell private citizens how to go about theirs is limited.

[DrP]

36 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Why are gangs of rapists with guns less of a problem that gangs of rapists without guns?

He claims it has never happened at all in the last 7 years in the US. pfft!

Back on topic - I had a thought about the guy's reason for doing it...  It is probably wrong, but just an idea....  I decided not to share it in full though in case it upset some people. He was clearly mad or bad though....  and after all the confusion on the news about his motives and invented motives I will hold back and say we do not know his reason...  whatever the US media decide to invent.  Being honest - I'd probably get a clearer understanding of the storey if I watched the news on the Russia Today channel. Less lies and inventions - more balanced reporting of the facts rather than agenda related twists to the facts to score points for one party or the other

 

Oh for emotionless, unbiased reporting of facts on our news programmes.  

 

[Juno]

59 minutes ago, DrP said:

Zero rapes in the USA over the last 7 years!?  You are totally deluded - I do not need to look that up to know you are talking shit here. Look it up  -  I'll wager with you that the figure is higher than the UK. I'll wager what ever you want that the figure is not zero in the last week let alone 7 years.. 

At the risk of prolonging the off-topic discussion... the figures I've found this morning indicate that around 63,000 children a year are victims of sexual abuse in the US (https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens).  Even if you assume that not all of those constitute rape, it's in the right ballpark to be comparable with the UK.

[Silvestru]

Guys, open a new thread please if you want to talk about gang rapes...

And stop indulging Sherado.

Human singularity of Insanity.

[DrP]

4 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

And stop indulging Sherado.

If you do not talk to these people....  they go off and vote for people like Trump that tell them what they want to hear regardless if it is factual or not...   we have a UK exit from the EU....  because, imo, people just fob off any anti EU or talk about immigration as extremist right wing views that won't be listened to.  Problem is it is half the country that vote this way - so if you don't indulge/educate them then they are just going to continue spreading their misinformation and twisted facts to demonise anyone or anything that doesn't support their views...   they then go off into their own little ehco chambers and internet bubbles and these grow and you get people DT running a superpower and Brexit happening. Maybe he is too stubborn to look up the facts and figures and interpret them honestly...  maybe he'll come round.  But if you attack him personally he will certainly double down and 'stick to his guns' and continue to spread his misinformed views....  others will believe him and you'll have 8 years of DT not 4.   Too late for us here in the UK - we are leaving the EU and nothing, it seems, will be changing that.

 

10 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Guys, open a new thread please if you want to talk about gang rapes...

 The OP bought it up as a comparison between the UK and the US...  it was to support his view that the UK (and the rest of the world presumably) is on the verge of a total collapse in civilisation. It was a continuation of the gun law discussion which was a natural continuation of the OP - the recent shooting. I have no wishes to discuss it  -  but I won't sit back and let blatant invention of UK crime figures being spouted as evidence for societies collapse  -  it is totally ridiculous....  but seemingly part of the conversation/discussion with the guy who thinks that 100s of thousands of gun deaths are acceptable losses for...  err for what exactly? I am not sure what the trade off is...  so people can feel safer by arming themselves? This is why we are discussing it - to educate people that they are NOT actually safer with guns, but safer without them....  unless you are a gangster, a robber, a rapist or a drug dealer - then sure - buy some guns, you'll probably need them.  

 

The recent event was tragic..  maybe though in an ironic way it will save 100s of thousands of lives by getting DT to allow discussions regarding gun safety. In a round about way the guy who just shot 60 people could be responsible for saving 100s of thousands of future lives if you end up getting proper gun control laws in place because of it.  I didn't want to say that...  but it is a possibility that his motives were this..  he was old, maybe dying anyway and wanted to save future lives.

  

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

Just a reminder for members to please stick to the topic. That includes the author of the thread as much as anyone else participating. 

 

[DrP]

9 minutes ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

!

Moderator Note

Just a reminder for members to please stick to the topic. That includes the author of the thread as much as anyone else participating. 

 

You are the boss, so I'll comply. I don't think this one is thought out that well though. What off topic convo are you talking about?  Gun laws? Breakdown of society?  Aren't these natural progressions of the topic of the OP?  It is impossible to discuss without drifting into the topic of gun laws. The OP brought up the state of society and world problem...  which being fair seem like a natural progression of the topic.  

I won't take any more part in this thread then, because, what else is there left to discuss under the heading.?.  an event happened. That's it..  any further discussion will drift off of the exact topic by way of natural conversation.

[Juno]

24 minutes ago, DrP said:

The recent event was tragic..  maybe though in an ironic way it will save 100s of thousands of lives by getting DT to allow discussions regarding gun safety. In a round about way the guy who just shot 60 people could be responsible for saving 100s of thousands of future lives if you end up getting proper gun control laws in place because of it.  I didn't want to say that...  but it is a possibility that his motives were this..  he was old, maybe dying anyway and wanted to save future lives.

That possibility had occurred to me as well.

[DrP]

Just now, Juno said:

That possibility had occurred to me as well.

I didn't want to say it though... :-(  I don't want any fool getting ideas.

[Juno]

Just now, DrP said:

I didn't want to say it though... :-(  I don't want any fool getting ideas.

Hey, if it can occur to us both in the space of 24 hours, I'm sure a fool with plenty of time on their hands could come up with it by themselves.

[DrP]

Too true Juno.  

 

[hypervalent_iodine]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

You are the boss, so I'll comply. I don't think this one is thought out that well though. What off topic convo are you talking about?  Gun laws? Breakdown of society?  Aren't these natural progressions of the topic of the OP?  It is impossible to discuss without drifting into the topic of gun laws. The OP brought up the state of society and world problem...  which being fair seem like a natural progression of the topic.  

I won't take any more part in this thread then, because, what else is there left to discuss under the heading.?.  an event happened. That's it..  any further discussion will drift off of the exact topic by way of natural conversation.

!

Moderator Note

Sorry, I wasn't necessarily referring to the posts directly prior to the last note. I am satisfied that those posts are on topic. I was more hinting at the posts about rapes and  the breakdown of U.K.  society. Scherado, whether you authored this thread or not, we have standards and rules that you agreed to obey upon signing up. We expect that the topic of a thread is what is outlined in the title and OP. Anything more is considered off topic, for the purposes of keeping discussion focussed. If you wish to discuss other things, please start other threads. 

 

[John Cuthber]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods

In the UK gang rape is considered (and counted as) a separate offence from rape.
In the US it isn't.

So the official stats will show more gang rapes in the UK.

"

United States[edit]

The US reports about 85,000 rapes a year, an average of 27.3 rapes per 100,000 population.^[94] There is a rape in the US every 6.2 minutes.^[95] As with other countries, the US does not collect separate data on gang rapes; Vogelman and Lewis estimate 25% of all rapes in the US are gang rapes.^[75] Another source indicates 21.8% of American rapes are gang rapes.^[96] A Roger Williams University study estimates from survey of crime data that 16% of all male rapists in the US participated in a gang rape crime.^[97]

Some recent examples of gang rapes reported in local media include the Cleveland gang rape,^[98] Richmond gang rape,^[99] New Orleans gang rape,^[100] St Paul gang rape,^[101] Miami gang rape/murder,^[102] Chicago gang rape,^[103] and Delaware park gang rape,^[104] among others.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape#United_States

 

Meanwhile, back at the topic.
Is there anything to add to the fact that, if he hadn't been able to get way more guns and ammo than anyone sensibly needs, he wouldn't have been able to kill so many people?

If not, it might be a short thread.

 

 

[Juno]

16 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Meanwhile, back at the topic.
Is there anything to add to the fact that, if he hadn't been able to get way more guns and ammo than anyone sensibly needs, he wouldn't have been able to kill so many people?

If not, it might be a short thread.

Well, the point of the OP was that he was "demanding" the shooter's reasons.  Apart from DrP's suggestion that it was an attempt to save future lives by forcing the debate on gun control forward, what are the other possibilities?  

[DrP]

8 minutes ago, Juno said:

 what are the other possibilities?  

Insanity missed by the doctors? Hatred of people and he flipped? He joined a terrorist organisation?  ..   all possible, but I think unlikely. I am not sure I'd trust whatever reason they gave when/if they released it now anyway. How would we know they are telling the truth?

 

30 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

There is a rape in the US every 6.2 minutes.^[95] As with other countries, the US does not collect separate data on gang rapes; Vogelman and Lewis estimate 25% of all rapes in the US are gang rapes.^[75] Another source indicates 21.8% of American rapes are gang rapes.^[96] A Roger Williams University study estimates from survey of crime data that 16% of all male rapists in the US participated in a gang rape crime.^[97]

So...  not zero then and considerably more than the UK even after the population size is taken into account. Thanks John. That puts that line of propaganda to bed... 

Maybe time for the OP to rethink his world view...  he has been lied to many times by somebody.  

[John Cuthber]

16 minutes ago, Juno said:

Well, the point of the OP was that he was "demanding" the shooter's reasons.  Apart from DrP's suggestion that it was an attempt to save future lives by forcing the debate on gun control forward, what are the other possibilities?  

We start to run into issues with the definition of "reason" here.
Killing a bunch of people at a concert just isn't "reasonable"- not even for country music.

What we are looking for  is "What delusion was he suffering from whereby he thought this was a good thing to do?".
It's possibly also interesting to consider how he cam to that , frankly insane, viewpoint. It would be fascinating to know  what his  web  browser, newspaper and TV watching histories look like.

My bet is that they resemble the OP's more than mine, but  guess we will never know.

 

 

[Juno]

23 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

We start to run into issues with the definition of "reason" here.
Killing a bunch of people at a concert just isn't "reasonable"- not even for country music.

What we are looking for  is "What delusion was he suffering from whereby he thought this was a good thing to do?".
It's possibly also interesting to consider how he cam to that , frankly insane, viewpoint. It would be fascinating to know  what his  web  browser, newspaper and TV watching histories look like.

My bet is that they resemble the OP's more than mine, but  guess we will never know.

I agree that there's unlikely to be a "reasonable" reason, but that's not the question.  A "reason" doesn't have to be "reasonable", it just has to be the "why".  

[John Cuthber]

I think we can rule out "he just snapped" since he had the guns with him in the hotel where he had been staying for some days.

It was clearly "planned".

[CharonY]

Meanwhile, discussions start on the real culprit: hotel/casino security.

[Ten oz]

32 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Meanwhile, discussions start on the real culprit: hotel/casino security.

The shooter purchased 33 guns in the last 12 months. Unfortunately U.S. law and society views such as perfectly normal. Would have been a violation of his rights had the ATF, FBI, DHS, or etc targeted him based on his numerous gun purchases.