Health benefits of cheese...and other things (split from inhaling hydrogen)

[DrP]

1 hour ago, Silvestru said:

You don't need these snake oils and hydrogen crap. Just drink some fresh beetroot juice, stop the pizza burgers and fizzy drinks and exercise more. Thats the real working snake oil   

I still don't see why pizza is unhealthy...  it's just bread, cheese, tomato, olives and salami..  what's wrong with that? If you had bread cheese, tomato and sausage on a plate with some bread and olives you'd say it was a nice healthy lunch (apart from the sausage maybe)...  put it together as a pizza and everyone says it's bad for you.   

[Silvestru]

6 minutes ago, DrP said:

I still don't see why pizza is unhealthy...  it's just bread, cheese, tomato, olives and salami..  what's wrong with that? If you had bread cheese, tomato and sausage on a plate with some bread and olives you'd say it was a nice healthy lunch (apart from the sausage maybe)...  put it together as a pizza and everyone says it's bad for you.   

I know this will get really messy and off topic so maybe we can start a new thread but cheese and actually all dairy products except natural yogurt are unhealthy. Especially melted cheese.

Not to mention processed white flower as well. I wont even get into the subject of sausage which raises cholesterol and even the tomatoes, while not unhealthy, should not be combined with meat or cheese as they require a different acidity level than the aforementioned to be digested.

We can start a new topic if you are not convinced/interested and I will elaborate.  

Edit: Visit a non-quack nutritionist or check the diet of top athletes. Aside from Michael Phelps which is a freak, you will find that most athletes are vegan with the exception of eggs and sometimes lean meats like turkey/chicken breast.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Silvestru

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

cheese and actually all dairy products except natural yogurt are unhealthy. Especially melted cheese.

Citation needed.

2 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

tomatoes, while not unhealthy, should not be combined with meat or cheese

Citation needed.

[Silvestru]

21 minutes ago, Strange said:

Citation needed.

Citation needed.

I knew it will get messy because as opposed to science, nutrition does not have a lot of validated sources.

I will quote some that I am quickly googling but some quackery ones might slip through

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/application-of-food-combining-principles/application-of-the-food-combining-rules.html

1.  

Quote

 

1. Never eat carbohydrate foods and acid foods at the same meal.
2. Never eat a concentrated protein and a concentrated carbohydrate at the same meal.

Some illustrations of combinations at the same meal which can produce this abortive effect are:

• Potatoes or other starchy vegetables with tomatoes or other fruit
• Starchy vegetables with nuts or other concentrated proteins
• Grains or legumes with tomatoes or other fruit

Tomatoes (acid fruit without the sugar content of other acid fruits) may be used with the vegetable salad or with any green or nonstarchy vegetable. They may also be eaten with protein/fat foods like nuts, cheese and avocados.

This seems to contradict Food Combining Rule No. 6, prohibiting the acid-protein combination. However, in actual practice, most Hygienists do use tomatoes with nuts and avocados rather freely. Both Dr. Shelton and Dr. Vetrano have come to consider these combinations acceptable and even desirable

 

.Random source two:
http://www.acidalkalinediet.net/correct-food-combining-principles.php

Quote

 

Tomatoes should never be combined with any starch food. They may be eaten with leafy vegetables and fat foods. The combination citric, malic and oxalic acids found in tomatoes, (which are released and intensified by cooking), is very antagonistic to the alkaline digestion of starches in the mouth and stomach. They should not be used on salads at a starch meal.

Never eat carbohydrate foods and acid foods at the same meal.
Do not eat bread, potatoes, peas, beans, bananas, dates, or other carbohydrates with lemons, limes, oranges, grapefruits, pineapples, tomatoes or other sour fruit.

 

I will come back in a second with Dairy products argument

I return with sources for the dairy "assumption" 

 

Department of Public Health, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8154473

Quote

“Consumption of dairy products, particularly at age 20 years, was associated with an increased risk of hip fracture in old age. (“Case-Control Study of Risk Factors for Hip Fractures in the Elderly”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065599?dopt=Citation

http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/health-concerns-about-dairy-products

 

Quote

 

Fat Content and Cardiovascular Disease

Dairy products—including cheese, ice cream, milk, butter, and yogurt—contribute significant amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat to the diet.¹⁵Diets high in fat and especially in saturated fat can increase the risk of heart disease and can cause other serious health problems.

 

 

At the bottom of the last article is a huge list of references. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Silvestru

[DrP]

Almost any meal I've ever had has carbs and protean together..  I'm not sure about what that article says..  when the food gets to the stomach I would have thought the acid would rip apart whatever goes in there  - starch, protean, fruit or whatever - who cares if it is mixed?.   I didn't get as far as the link with the refs, just the first one - might look later.....  I seriously doubt reading them will change my eating habits of a lifetime though.

[Silvestru]

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Almost any meal I've ever had has carbs and protean together..  I'm not sure about what that article says..  when the food gets to the stomach I would have thought the acid would rip apart whatever goes in there  - starch, protean, fruit or whatever - who cares if it is mixed?.   I didn't get as far as the link with the refs, just the first one - might look later.....  I seriously doubt reading them will change my eating habits of a lifetime though.

I'm not trying to change or convince you of anything. Just read about stomach acidity.(ph) To digest melon you need a far lower acidity level than you would need for red meat.

 

[Strange]

40 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I will quote some that I am quickly googling but some quackery ones might slip through

Well, the first two look about as unbiased as the OPs source. (In other words, they are crank diet sites.)

I would have thought that your opinions would have had some support rather than you having to hurriedly look for some.

Quote

Consumption of dairy products, particularly at age 20 years, was associated with an increased risk of hip fracture in old age

This is, as they say, surprising and needs to be confirmed by other studies.

5 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Just read about stomach acidity.(ph)

Burden of proof ...

[DrP]

5 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

 To digest melon you need a far lower acidity level than you would need for red meat.

...  but at the level for red meat the melon is still digested surely?  What problem does it cause? Slight indigestion of the red meat if the pH is lowered by the melon? I guess that could be why we have several courses with the fruits at the start or the end of the meal.

 

[Silvestru]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Well, the first two look about as unbiased as the OPs source. (In other words, they are crank diet sites.)

I would have thought that your opinions would have had some support rather than you having to hurriedly look for some.

This is, as they say, surprising and needs to be confirmed by other studies.

You are right regarding the first two sources. To be honest my first two sources kind of fall as my knowledge about the tomato subject comes from my mom who is a retired psychiatrist/nutritionist rational skeptical woman haha. I will ask her to guide me to some relevant sources. 

But the sources for the dairy topic are from Department of public health so not exactly your typical FoxNews article.

Bottom line is that it's really hard to find pertinent studies on diet with all the woo on the internet.

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Bottom line is that it's really hard to find pertinent studies on diet with all the woo on the internet.

Indeed. So saying something like "dairy is bad" sounds rather foolish. Eating too much fat, form any source, may be a problem (but the evidence for that is pretty shaky). Eating an unbalanced diet is probably not good. Eating to much is probably not good.

But any claims that X is bad are to be treated with extreme caution. (Apart from a few cases; for example if X is Amanita phalloides!)

[Silvestru]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Indeed. So saying something like "dairy is bad" sounds rather foolish. Eating too much fat, form any source, may be a problem (but the evidence for that is pretty shaky). Eating an unbalanced diet is probably not good. Eating to much is probably not good.

But any claims that X is bad are to be treated with extreme caution. (Apart from a few cases; for example if X is Amanita phalloides!)

We had this discussion before Strange, where I said that our digestive system is not yet adapted to this modern dairy diet and you did not agree. Humans started eating dairy 8000 years ago. While some of us are able to digest milk, it does not mean that it is necessarily healthy.

Quote

“Most adults worldwide do not produce the enzyme lactase and so are unable to digest the milk sugar lactose,” says Professor Mark Thomas, UCL Genetics, Evolution and Environment. (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0908/09082801)

The above article will describe what genes are necessary to digest it and it does not mention any harmful effects of dairy as that is not it's point.

I do agree that it was and still is a good source of nutrition and helped us survive and prosper but it is not ideal. The same way as eating McDonalds on a deserted island would be "healthier" than not eating anything.

Regarding the Tomato combination with meat, It's pretty improbable that there is a case study specifically for these 2 ingredients so I hope that you will accept a study about combining fruit and meat as that is essentially what a tomato is. As I took two specific examples from DrP's Pizza ingredient breakdown it's like searching the internet for: Who would win in a fight? A polar bear or  a Pellican? While there have (I assume) been no studies made for this specific scenario I can only assume that the bear would win by a hair or two.

[Strange]

8 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

We had this discussion before Strange, where I said that our digestive system is not yet adapted to this modern dairy diet and you did not agree.

I don't agree. And the article you cite says that we have evolved digest lactose (i.e. that you are wrong).

10 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Regarding the Tomato combination with meat, It's pretty improbable that there is a case study specifically for these 2 ingredients so I hope that you will accept a study about combining fruit and meat as that is essentially what a tomato is.

I would be interested in such a thing, if you have one.

Note: "combining diets" only work (if they work at all) because they reduce the amount people eat by restricting what is allowed.

[Silvestru]

4 minutes ago, Strange said:

I don't agree. And the article you cite says that we have evolved digest lactose (i.e. that you are wrong).

I would be interested in such a thing, if you have one.

You can digest Lego pieces as well Strange, doesn't mean they are good for you. As I mentioned, dairy has benefits. It's just not the ideal nutrition.

Quote

Note: "combining diets" only work (if they work at all) because they reduce the amount people eat by restricting what is allowed.

Citation needed.

24 minutes ago, Strange said:

35 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

We had this discussion before Strange, where I said that our digestive system is not yet adapted to this modern dairy diet and you did not agree.

Strange: I don't agree.

Haha that was established in the premise.

[Strange]

37 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

You can digest Lego pieces as well Strange, doesn't mean they are good for you.

I also don't believe you can digest lego pieces. Unless you have evolved an ABS-ase enzyme.

[Silvestru]

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

I also don't believe you can digest lego pieces. Unless you have evolved an ABS-ase enzyme.

I humbly accept the fact that one cannot digest Lego pieces. I exaggerated the stomachs capabilities in a failed attempt to strengthen my point.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Silvestru said:

We had this discussion before Strange, where I said that our digestive system is not yet adapted to this modern dairy diet and you did not agree. Humans started eating dairy 8000 years ago. While some of us are able to digest milk, it does not mean that it is necessarily healthy.

The solution is to eat fermented milk products whereby the lactose is converted to lactic acid.

[DrP]

10 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The solution is to eat fermented milk products

  :sick:

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Silvestru said:

Citation needed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/09/05/we-found-out-what-food-combining-is-and-if-it-actually-works_a_21465909/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/food-combining

https://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2015/05/12/debunking-the-myth-of-food-combining

And on and on.

Looks like it is BS. And your mother is mistaken about fruit and starch (or protein or whatever it was).

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

  :sick:

Good cheddar has that quality. Natural yoghurt doesn't though.

[DrP]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

Good cheddar has that quality.

I love a nice strong cheddar!!   <3 

In the past - in times of total poverty...  I have eaten a single piece of cheddar cheese as a supper. The strength of the taste can help stave off hunger pains in my experience (as can a teaspoon of marmite) and it is pretty satisfying (compared to sod all anyway).

 

 

[Strange]

Quote

A review of the medical literature published in 2012 noted that: "Cheese consumption is the leading contributor of SF (saturated fat) in the U.S. diet, and therefore would be predicted to increase LDL-C (LDL cholesterol) and consequently increase the risk of CVD (cardiovascular disease)." It found that: "Based on results from numerous prospective observational studies and meta-analyses, most, but not all, have shown no association and in some cases an inverse relationship between the intake of milk fat containing dairy products and the risk of CVD, CHD (coronary heart disease), and stroke. A limited number of prospective cohort studies found no significant association between the intake of total full-fat dairy products and the risk of CHD or stroke....Most clinical studies showed that full-fat natural cheese, a highly fermented product, significantly lowers LDL-C compared with butter intake of equal total fat and saturated fat content."^[32]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese

[Silvestru]

18 hours ago, Strange said:

Most clinical studies showed that full-fat natural cheese, a highly fermented product, significantly lowers LDL-C compared with butter intake of equal total fat and saturated fat content.

Well they are comparing a dairy product to another. Not exactly proving your point.

Also without any conspiracy reference I just stumbled incidentally on some studies and marketing adds from the 30's to 60's on the benefits of cigarettes as some studies showed.I am NOT in any way comparing dairy products to this phenomenon BUT there was a boom in beef consumption in the 60's-70's so encouragement of dairy consumption(lets say as a by-product of cattle herding) was a very good economical incentive.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[John Cuthber]

On 10/10/2017 at 1:05 PM, Silvestru said:

actually all dairy products except natural yogurt are unhealthy.

Milk is just about the only thing whose "purpose" in life is to be eaten.

You are saying we shouldn't eat it.

Would you like to think that through?

 

On 10/10/2017 at 1:17 PM, Silvestru said:

some quackery ones might slip through

They sure did.

http://www.health.com/celebrities/alkaline-diet-creator-jail-time

[CharonY]

Using an evolutionary argument is problematic as there is little evidence that replicating what we assume to be food that our ancestors have been eating has massive health benefits. In fact, there is evidence that instead human populations show rapid adaptation to various levels of agriculture (such as wide-spread ability to digest lactose). Also, it is difficult to separate cheese intake with all the other food intake to isolate the health effect specifically. Hence, any strong declarations should be viewed with some level of skepticism. That being said, there are studies that indicate higher cardiovascular health in individuals with higher dairy intake (study in Luxembourg). Case-control studies did not find a strong link between cheese intake and altered cholesterol (in some case there were benefits, as already highlighted) and in some cases they were associated with reduced intima thickness (which is related to atherosclerosis and cardiovascular syndromes).

Indications of negative effects are more indirect and include that they are a significant source of sodium and fat. Though by skimming the lit I could not find a significant association with actual negative health outcome. In fact, a recent meta-analysis indicates an inverse relationship between cheese consumption and cardiovascular events and stroke (which are related,Chen et al.Eur J Nutr. 2016). Thus the current state of science does not support the blanket notion that all dairy products (except yoghurt, but why?) are harmful and in some cases may actually confer benefits.

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Using an evolutionary argument is problematic as there is little evidence that replicating what we assume to be food that our ancestors have been eating has massive health benefits. In fact, there is evidence that instead human populations show rapid adaptation to various levels of agriculture (such as wide-spread ability to digest lactose). Also, it is difficult to separate cheese intake with all the other food intake to isolate the health effect specifically. Hence, any strong declarations should be viewed with some level of skepticism. That being said, there are studies that indicate higher cardiovascular health in individuals with higher dairy intake (study in Luxembourg). Case-control studies did not find a strong link between cheese intake and altered cholesterol (in some case there were benefits, as already highlighted) and in some cases they were associated with reduced intima thickness (which is related to atherosclerosis and cardiovascular syndromes).

Indications of negative effects are more indirect and include that they are a significant source of sodium and fat. Though by skimming the lit I could not find a significant association with actual negative health outcome. In fact, a recent meta-analysis indicates an inverse relationship between cheese consumption and cardiovascular events and stroke (which are related,Chen et al.Eur J Nutr. 2016). Thus the current state of science does not support the blanket notion that all dairy products (except yoghurt, but why?) are harmful and in some cases may actually confer benefits.

Re highlighted: you have me confused. Are you saying the studies suggest yoghurt is harmful?