Harvey Weinstein

[waitforufo]

Recent news reports tell us of decades of sexual abuse and harassment by Harvey Weinstein.  I'm sure the abuse we have heard about is simply the tip of the iceberg.  My guess is the list of abused aspiring actresses is much larger.  The reports we have heard so far often refer to rumors of abuse swirling around Weinstein throughout his decades of abuse.  In addition there are reports that the news media has spiked stories about this subject.  What I find absent in all of this is stories questioning the ethics of actresses who remained silent about their abusive and criminal encounters with Harvey Weinstein.  How culpable are these women for the abuse of women that followed them on the casting couch?  

Let's take for example Ashley Judd.  Ms. Judd is a vocal feminist.  Here is an image of Ms. Judd protesting the comments of President Trump.

 

https://every2min.com/2017/01/22/rape-survivor-ashley-judd-explains-why-trump-triggers-so-many-sexual-assault-survivors/

Here is another image of Ashley Judd with Harvey Weinstein.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4962354/Ashley-Judd-breaks-silence-Weinstein.html

Ms. Judd could find her voice politically, but not professionally.  How many women would have avoided Harvey Weinstein abuse if she had publicly accused Weinstein?  The same question goes for all the other women abused by Harvey Weinstein.  

 

 

[iNow]

Brilliant move. Victim blaming is obviously what’s needed here. Well done!

[waitforufo]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Brilliant move. Victim blaming is obviously what’s needed here. Well done!

I'm not blaming them for their own personal abuse.  I"m questioning if they have an ethical obligation to report this abuse quickly to prevent the abuse of others.  As I mentioned, news reports claim that Harvey Weinstein has been sexually assaulting women for decades.  Would it not have been better for all of these women to publicly expose Harvey Weinstein long ago to spare the victimization of others?  Shouldn't this be particularly true of vocal feminists?  They don't seem to have a problem coming forward now that the flood gates have been opened.   

[CharonY]

I think this should be moved to ethics. One element that explains the lack of reporting is that there is a system of normalization around his behaviour, coupled with an extreme power differential. In addition, only one or two decades ago, such abusive behaviour was perhaps considered in bad taste but had less social cost associated with it (and heck, even today it is largely situational, considering how people get away with abusive behaviour). Thus even if she had objected as a relatively unknown actress there is a high chance that it would not have been taken seriously. There is also an inner barrier to overcome. Most victims of abuse do not report it for a variety of reasons, including retaliation and/or the simple fact that people may not believe them (and call them gold diggers or worse).

After all, the rumors were around for years (i.e. some people apparently did tell others) and yet nothing happened. Typically, these allegations are only taken seriously when they come from several sources, so the first one to break it, is at considerable risk.  

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

As victim blaming falls under the civility rules here, we're not doing this.

If you want to discuss why women don't speak up after they are harassed or abused, fine, but this detestable approach isn't going to happen.

 

[iNow]

7 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Would it not have been better for all of these women to publicly expose Harvey Weinstein long ago to spare the victimization of others? 

This is a complex question (for the reasons cited above by CharonY and more) and the risk/reward or failure/success probability extremely uncertain. It’s silly to assume simple black/white yes/no answers.

It would’ve been better if Weinstein didn’t keep doing this. End program. Do not pass go.

Focusing on him as an aggressor and why victims are so often ignored when the do speak out is IMO a better use of our time than focusing on why some of his victims didn’t push harder to change the broader culture which makes behaviors like this so frustratingly common. 

[MigL]

Even scumbags deserve their day in court, Swansont, so they are 'alleged' victims, so far.
( and I do hope there are charges coming so the seedy underbelly of Hollywood is exposed for all to see )

Don't have a problem with A Judd, or R McGowan; they came forward and were brave.
And they have the most to lose as their careers are not huge.
M Streep ( and some other huge stars like N Kidman, A Jolie, etc ), who spoke out about D Trump at an awards show, remained silent for almost a week.
I guess she didn't want to put her career on the line for the 'right thing to do'.

But then again, I stopped considering 'Hollywood types' as normal people, a long time ago.
How many of these 'stars' still support R Polansky so many years after the statutory rape ?
( maybe they think society's rules don't apply to them )

[StringJunky]

To what extent did their desire to be famous override their urge to complain? It's wrong, but the casting couch phenomenon has probably been going on since near the advent of film. 

[zapatos]

I imagine for most people it is a matter of weighing the pros and cons. "Do I want to risk my career by fighting what is likely a losing battle?" The more you have to lose the more crap you'll put up with. And with someone as powerful as Weinsten, you could be risking a lot.

Not to mention that women have to put up with that crap most of their lives. I would guess some of it is just ignored so that you don't have to spend all your waking hours fighting against men who are real tools.

[CharonY]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

To what extent did their desire to be famous override their urge to complain? It's wrong, but the casting couch phenomenon has probably been going on since near the advent of film. 

It is not always as rational as that. For example, some may have complained, but if everyone surrounding the industry basically shrugs and tells you that it is just the way it is, there is a huge barrier to actually try lodge a formal complaint. 

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is not always as rational as that. For example, some may have complained, but if everyone surrounding the industry basically shrugs and tells you that it is just the way it is, there is a huge barrier to actually try lodge a formal complaint. 

Yes, within the industry but did they take it to law enforcement? It's only now, after a 100-odd years,  that the law and media attention is becoming involved to the degree it is. The way I'm seeing it is, that this is what those particular women had to do to get where they are today...they were ambitious enough to pay that price. I'm finding it difficult to see them as victims. I'll be clear, Weinstein is not a nice person at all but he offered a price for access to their desires and they took it. It looks like that sexual gravy train may be coming to an end and Weinstein is the  symbolic focus for that problem in the entertainment industry.

[waitforufo]

Imagine that you are a young aspiring actress who gets what she believes is the break of her career, a private meeting with movie mogul Harvey Weinstein.  After that meeting she realizes that the entire point of the meeting was for her to be raped by a dirty old man.  Then a week later A-list stars such as Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Ashley Judd, etc come out  publicly claiming the Harvey Weinstein sexually abused them years if not decades ago.  How do you think that woman feel about those A list stars never saying a word for years?  Women she looked up to and hoped to emulate? Women she looked up to because they were vocal feminists.  Do you think she would believe those women were culpable in her rape? 

Here is the current list of accusers.  

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/10/harvey-weinstein-accusers-sexual-harassment-assault-rose-mcgowan-ashley-judd-gwyneth-paltrow

 

How do you think these women would explain there inaction to this young aspiring actress?

What if that young aspiring actress was your daughter?  How would you feel about these women?

What if the young aspiring actress was your wife or your sister?  How would you feel about these women?

[koti]

20 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

 

How do you think these women would explain there inaction to this young aspiring actress?

What if that young aspiring actress was your daughter?  How would you feel about these women?

What if the young aspiring actress was your wife or your sister?  How would you feel about these women?

I don’t think that playing an emotional card like that should be of any significance. All that this direction can result with is blind hatred towards an obvious asshole who took advantage of his position to satisfy his ill sexual desires. I’m thinking two things...firstly that we (the general public) have no idea about the details of this controversy and most likely we will never find out those details. Secondly, a highest ranked hollywood producer gets accused of sexual harasment - big deal, its not like its going to change the world which I’m suspecting lots of people are not realising is a harsh place.

[swansont]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Even scumbags deserve their day in court, Swansont, so they are 'alleged' victims, so far.
( and I do hope there are charges coming so the seedy underbelly of Hollywood is exposed for all to see )

!

Moderator Note

Which changes the situation how, he asked, rhetorically?

Let's stay on point.

 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, within the industry but did they take it to law enforcement? It's only now, after a 100-odd years,  that the law and media attention is becoming involved to the degree it is.

I am not sure what your point is. It is true that for a long time sexual assault was not a matter of law enforcement and that until very recently was assumed something that just happened without repercussion (and sometimes extended to situations which nowadays would be classified as rape). But are you saying that people should just accept it?

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am not sure what your point is. It is true that for a long time sexual assault was not a matter of law enforcement and that until very recently was assumed something that just happened without repercussion (and sometimes extended to situations which nowadays would be classified as rape). But are you saying that people should just accept it?

I think we need to define sexual assault. If Harvey Weinstein says - implied or explicitly stated - "I'll do this for you if you do this for me" and they concede, is that sexual assualt?

Edited October 12, 2017 by StringJunky

[waitforufo]

1 hour ago, koti said:

I don’t think that playing an emotional card like that should be of any significance. All that this direction can result with is blind hatred towards an obvious asshole who took advantage of his position to satisfy his ill sexual desires. I’m thinking two things...firstly that we (the general public) have no idea about the details of this controversy and most likely we will never find out those details. Secondly, a highest ranked hollywood producer gets accused of sexual harasment - big deal, its not like its going to change the world which I’m suspecting lots of people are not realising is a harsh place.

Perhaps the emotion you refer to is injustice, and not just towards Harvey Weinsten, but towards the women who knew this was going on and did not make it public there by putting it to a stop  If these women did make it public, then we would know the details.

I'm surprised that you don't think sexual assault and harassment against women is a big deal.  I do.  Maybe that's because I have a wife and daughters.

8 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think we need to define sexual assault. If Harvey Weinstein says - implied or explicitly stated - "I'll do this for you if you do this for me" and they concede, is that sexual assualt?

I don't think you meant to imply that the women in question are whores. 

If we as a society are going to push for an end to sexual harassment and abuse of women, then women need to report these crimes.  This is what I tell the women who report to me.  This is corporate policy in every company I have ever worked for and I have been working professionally for 33 years.   

[Area54]

54 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If Harvey Weinstein says - implied or explicitly stated - "I'll do this for you if you do this for me" and they concede, is that sexual assualt?

If it is accompanied by - implied or explicitly stated "And if you don't do this for me, I'll make certain that no one in this industry does anything for you again" then it would certainly be sexual assault.

[koti]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I think we need to define sexual assault. If Harvey Weinstein says - implied or explicitly stated - "I'll do this for you if you do this for me" and they concede, is that sexual assualt?

It’s up to the court and jury to decide but one thing we can be sure of, the list of current 32 harrased women will get a lot longer. 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

it is a matter of weighing the pros and cons. "Do I want to risk my career by fighting what is likely a losing battle?"

 

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

Not to mention that women have to put up with that crap most of their lives.

These are the points I find most compelling. 

The sense of powerlessness and recognition that it'd be dismissed... Cassandra on the wall and whatnot.

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

If we as a society are going to push for an end to sexual harassment and abuse of women, then women need to report these crimes.

Beyond just this, we must take it more seriously when they do. I trust that you're a good manager and would handle it properly. Unfortunately, that's not generally the case or potentially even very common.

[waitforufo]

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

Beyond just this, we must take it more seriously when they do. I trust that you're a good manager and would handle it properly. Unfortunately, that's not generally the case or potentially even very common.

In my professional career there has always been mandatory annual harassment training.  Prior to becoming a manager I though this training was a bit silly.  There wasn't anything in that training that I didn't learn from school and my family, particularly my grandmothers, aunts, mother, and sisters.  In fact today this training is done on line with teaching sections and test sections.  I always skip the teaching sections and go right to the tests and always get 100%.  Very basic stuff.

When I became a manager I quickly understood the need for this training.  In my career I have had to deal with three harassment cases.  The women complaining were always obviously upset, but at the same time rather timid in their complaints.  All three cases were outrageously blatant, one including stalking, all leading to quick deserved termination of the harassers.  My experience is that women don't lie about harassment.   Every manager I have discussed this topic with has said the same thing.  The real problem is when one of these harassing jerks becomes a manager and moves up the ranks.  This would not happen if more women complained.  

There must be something seriously wrong in show business that this exploitation still exists.  I can't believe that Harvey Weinsteins behavior wasn't well know.  I shutter at the number of hopeful young women he abused.  Established people are supposed to be good to young people starting out regardless of there profession.    

[iNow]

I’ve taken many of those same prevention of harassment corporate trainings through the years, too. Like you, I’ve tended to skip to the test and received score of 100% because it was blindingly obvious what the correct answer was. I took this same approach with many other “check the box” compliance courses delivered through our learning management system. 

I agree with your point that it’s important for people to speak up. I’m also sensitive to the reasons they might choose not to. I can empathize with it, especially given how often it simply makes their experience worse than it already was.  

There seems to be an issue with some men in power abusing it. They have both the means to act on these urges and the means to circumvent consequences when they do. 

Thats not something just for victims to fix. It’s something for us ALL to fix. We’re making progress, but much more remains to be done.

[MigL]

Every major corporation has the equivalent training these days.
It just makes sense.

However, this kind of behavior has been going on since the beginning of the film industry.
Remember 'Fatty" Arbuckle, or how about L B Mayer ( and his associates ) and how he treated  J Garland when she was just a teenager ?
And it will keep going on until the complaints are made, not through the media ( other than allegations, no charges have been brought against H Weinstein ), but through the criminal justice system, and, as soon as they happen.
Hollywood people seem to think they can do whatever they want, and just go to re-hab to get a second chance.
It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way in the real world.
The 'Harvey Weinstein' predators who abuse their power for their own twisted ends, need to go to jail. 
( is that on point Swansont , he asks, rhetorically ?!? )

[iNow]

Your framing repeatedly implies this issue is local to the film industry. It’s not. Perhaps you didn’t intend this, but that’s what comes through. 

As for criminal charges and proceedings, how do you overcome the hearsay element of this... the he said/she said nature of the claims?

Remember... Even Bill Cosby who was straight drugging women without consent barely got taken to court even after 50 different women independently told the same story.

I think this suggestion is unrealistic to the point of myopia.

https://news.vice.com/story/rose-mcgowan-says-amazon-knew-weinstein-had-raped-her

Quote

I told the head of your studio that HW raped me. Over & over I said it. He said it hadn’t been proven. I said I was the proof.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by iNow

[MigL]

No, I'm not saying that at all.
What I am saying is that, in the film industry, these bastards have gotten away with this sort of behavior for years.
And I provided  examples where they got away with it even though everyone knew it was happening; simply because no charges were ever made and it was just 'hearsay'. H Weinstein is simply going to a $40 000 per month re-hab facility in Europe ( sounds like a vacation ), then he'll come back, and these Hollywood 'stars' will be fawning all over him again. And things just go on as before.
 In B Cosby's case, charges have been brought up against him, so he, for one, can't simply go to re-hab. Hopefully he'll do time. But the chances of a conviction would have been much greater if the complainants hadn't taken so long to come forward. After so long, statute of limitations kick in, pay-outs and NDAs are greed upon, and no proper investigation can be carried out.

The only way this behavior stops, is if these people start doing jail time.

edit:
Sorry that should have been ' pay-outs and NDAs are agreed upon', but 'greed upon ' could also fit.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MigL