Harvey Weinstein

[tar]

Airbrush,

I understood Trump's "locker room talk" apology, having been in many locker rooms and having been in the Army.  The access Hollywood tape was from a decade ago, when he was not on the road to the presidency but an entertainer.  He after all, did not grab anybody by the privates that did not want to get grabbed by the privates.  He just said that since he was a star, people would let him do that to them.   

Everybody here knows the stories about couch casting.    Sex is for sale in Hollywood.   I saw a very crude show on cable about the porn stars awards, best this kind of sex that kind of sex awards.  The recipients were scantily clad and spoke very crudely.   It would be almost a badge of honor for one of these folks to suggest they were so desirable sexually as to have used that power to get a leg up in the industry.    The main stream Hollywood culture is only a little bit North of this kind of standard.  After all, sex sells, and in the magazine and advertising and film industry, the better looking get the jobs.

If two young ladies had identical looks and identical acting prowess and one put her hand on the casting director's shoulder and the other stood 6 feet away, the approachable one, might have an advantage in the hiring decision.

Or consider casting for a movie with a sex scene and one candidate bears her shoulders and the other puts on a thick sweater.

If you are a starlet  and you purse your lips and show off your figure, are you not asking to be the object of desire?

Regards, TAR

And Hillary's outrage at having a powerful man in the oval office using his power to gain sexual favors, is addressed at Trump's access Hollywood talk, when it   more appropriately should be aimed at her husband's actual acts.  In the actual Oval office. With the power of the presidency being overtly used to get a blow job.

[swansont]

43 minutes ago, tar said:

Airbrush,

I understood Trump's "locker room talk" apology, having been in many locker rooms and having been in the Army.  The access Hollywood tape was from a decade ago, when he was not on the road to the presidency but an entertainer.  He after all, did not grab anybody by the privates that did not want to get grabbed by the privates.  He just said that since he was a star, people would let him do that to them.   

(emphasis added)

Given the number of women who came forward to confirm they were assaulted (and who knows how many are under NDA), I call BS on that statement.

"Letting" in this example means they would not file a complaint. But that's because of the rigged system, not because they were consenting.

Quote

Everybody here knows the stories about couch casting.

Doesn't make it legal, or palatable.

Quote

  If you are a starlet  and you purse your lips and show off your figure, are you not asking to be the object of desire?

Asking to be the object of desire is not nearly the same thing as "asking" to be sexually assaulted.

Quote

 And Hillary's outrage at having a powerful man in the oval office using his power to gain sexual favors, is addressed at Trump's access Hollywood talk, when it   more appropriately should be aimed at her husband's actual acts.  In the actual Oval office. With the power of the presidency being overtly used to get a blow job.

News flash: Bill Clinton is no longer the president. We're discussing (reasonably) current events. (also, tu quoque is a logical fallacy)

[Airbrush]

35 minutes ago, tar said:

I understood Trump's "locker room talk" apology, having been in many locker rooms and having been in the Army.  The access Hollywood tape was from a decade ago, when he was not on the road to the presidency but an entertainer.  He after all, did not grab anybody by the privates that did not want to get grabbed by the privates.  He just said that since he was a star, people would let him do that to them.  

Real locker room talk is not tall tales, not outrageous fibs, they are boasting of TRUE exploits.  This lends total credibility to Trump's claims about assaulting women sexually on a routine basis.  A decade ago Trump was 61 when he was busy forcing himself on "beautiful".  Do all his employees sign nondisclosure agreements?  A delusional person as Trump does NOT know that his victims DIDN'T want to be grabbed.

Donald Trump is a text-book case of Harvey Weinstein.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Airbrush

[tar]

Airbrush,

Much of the rules on sexual harassment have to do with "unwanted" sexual contact and even the mention of sex where it makes someone uncomfortable.  Crude jokes are considered sexual harassment, and are lumped in with a boss demanding sex or you facing dismissal if you reject the advance.  A person in a position of wealth and power often uses that wealth and power to get what she or he wants.  A dominated person is dominated because they have submitted to the  other's power.   Rock stars have groupies because the groupies are attracted to the celebrity.

You are not in a position to say that everybody that Trump ever made a sexual advance toward, rejected the advance.  Or to say, that he ever proceeded after being told to stop.

 One accuser I remember from the election cycle, said the flight attendant told her Trump was in first class and had found her attractive, and want to know if she was interested in sitting with him.   She went up and he fondled and kissed her...for a rather substantial period of time.      Which part of that story sounds like a  sexual assault to you?  Now she can say it was.  Then she could have not gone up, or could have stood up and gone back to her seat at any time.

Regards, TAR

  

Edited October 17, 2017 by tar

[MigL]

Is this thread about H Weinstein, or is it becoming about D Trump ?
( we have other threads for that )

And if the argument is that H Weinstein is a 'symptom' of the malady that affects ALL of society, exemplified by the fact that D Trump, a self-confessed abuser, is President, then the past history of Hollywood ( and its abuses ) and the past history of the Presidency ( and the abuses of B Clinton, J F Kennedy, etc. ) are fair game.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, tar said:

Much of the rules on sexual harassment have to do with "unwanted" sexual contact and even the mention of sex where it makes someone uncomfortable.  Crude jokes are considered sexual harassment, and are lumped in with a boss demanding sex or you facing dismissal if you reject the advance.    

Tar - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article. Please read it all the way to the end before you offer comment. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gretchen-kelly/the-thing-all-women-do-you-dont-know-about_b_8630416.html

[MigL]

To be fair iNow, that article makes the perception of the victim the criteria for whether a crime has been committed, not the intent of the accused.
And the same justification could be used to generalize, and accuse all black people , because some have mugged, or all Muslims because some are terrorists. And that would be just as wrong.

The standard procedure, because men ( and women ) are human, and are prone to saying or acting inappropriately, is to let them know that they are acting inappropriately, and if the speech/acts continue, then there is intent. And then it becomes harassment, or criminal; prior to that it is just stupidity ( I know I say stupid things from time to time ).

The problem with the Weinstein situation, is that no-one, other than the young, starting out, starlets that he targeted, seem to have told him that he was acting inappropriately, or criminally. From all the jokes at awards shows ( S Mcfarlane ), and interviews from 20 yrs ago ( C Love ), a lot of Hollywood seemed to know about 'Harvey's problem', yet all of them stayed silent till after the 'dam burst', and they were called to account for their silence.
That bothers me; not as much as H Weinstein's repulsive actions, but surely the established 'stars' that knew of his habit were enablers.

Edited October 17, 2017 by MigL

[swansont]

2 hours ago, tar said:

Airbrush,

Much of the rules on sexual harassment have to do with "unwanted" sexual contact

Unwanted sexual contact is sexual assault, not harassment

2 hours ago, tar said:

 You are not in a position to say that everybody that Trump ever made a sexual advance toward, rejected the advance.  Or to say, that he ever proceeded after being told to stop.

I don't think anyone has claimed that this is the case. It is enough that some of them did.

2 hours ago, tar said:

One accuser I remember from the election cycle, said the flight attendant told her Trump was in first class and had found her attractive, and want to know if she was interested in sitting with him.   She went up and he fondled and kissed her...for a rather substantial period of time.      Which part of that story sounds like a  sexual assault to you?  Now she can say it was.  Then she could have not gone up, or could have stood up and gone back to her seat at any time.

Nice to see that you have decided what someone else feels empowered to do, but that doesn't jibe with her recounting of the incident. Where did you get your information?

[iNow]

56 minutes ago, MigL said:

that article makes the perception of the victim the criteria for whether a crime has been committed, not the intent of the accused.

The focus wasn't on whether or not a crime was committed, but just how insidious and pervasive this is, and how practically every single female we know has faced it, been frustrated by it, and felt fear as a result of it. I'm troubled by how many "me too" posts I've seen in my feeds, from people I love and care deeply about. We all should be.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

To be fair iNow, that article makes the perception of the victim the criteria for whether a crime has been committed, not the intent of the accused.

Why does intent matter? Harassment and assault are fairly well-defined actions.

Quote

And the same justification could be used to generalize, and accuse all black people , because some have mugged, or all Muslims because some are terrorists. And that would be just as wrong.

Um, what? Did you read the same article that I did? 

Quote

The standard procedure, because men ( and women ) are human, and are prone to saying or acting inappropriately, is to let them know that they are acting inappropriately, and if the speech/acts continue, then there is intent. And then it becomes harassment, or criminal; prior to that it is just stupidity ( I know I say stupid things from time to time ).

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse..except for sexual harassment. Is that a fair summary? 

There are situations where everyone should know that certain behavior is inappropriate. Employer-employee, for example, and similar situations where one person has more power than the other.

Quote

The problem with the Weinstein situation, is that no-one, other than the young, starting out, starlets that he targeted, seem to have told him that he was acting inappropriately, or criminally. From all the jokes at awards shows ( S Mcfarlane ), and interviews from 20 yrs ago ( C Love ), a lot of Hollywood seemed to know about 'Harvey's problem', yet all of them stayed silent till after the 'dam burst', and they were called to account for their silence.
That bothers me; not as much as H Weinstein's repulsive actions, but surely the established 'stars' that knew of his habit were enablers.

That's the pattern everywhere this happens. "Oh that's just Harvey being Harvey" happens a lot. "How dare you accuse him!", too. Add in "Why are you trying to smear a good man?" And so on, and so on.

[CharonY]

I think it is difficult and perhaps meaningless to confine the discussion to a specific individual. After all, this behaviour is the result of structural reasons (including extreme power imbalance). This form of exploitation has been around in many areas, where people of authority abuse their charges (and worse). And similar to this case,  victims tend  not to talk or only to close trustees. Only when there is a critical mass of publicity do they fee l encouraged to come forward, especially when the abuse happened when they were children .  For example,  only recently the USA gymnast team a medical doctor is accused of ~125 cases of sexual assault. And it only really got out after he  was charged with possession of child pornography. There are many many more stories like this and while children are the most obvious victims, it is clear that it extends to adults as well. In academia recently reports of sexual harassment of students by their profs have been making the rounds. And again, it is not a new event, it is only that current discussions have shed a light on this ongoing issue. The book "The Lecherous Professor: Sexual Harassment On Campus" was originally published in the 80s and seems as relevant today.

Ultimately one has to recognize that for many victims it is easier to shrug it off and maybe even normalize that behaviour in their minds (and after all, others are going to view it as a tit for tat anyway) and continue with their lives rather than face the potential repercussions.  The article  provided by iNow nicely portrays how the "playing along" mindset  establishes itself in the victims. 

[waitforufo]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Tar - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article. Please read it all the way to the end before you offer comment. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gretchen-kelly/the-thing-all-women-do-you-dont-know-about_b_8630416.html

I don't think I would go so far as to say "They don't know."  Men of good character avoid men of low character, so observing their low character behavior is limited to chance encounters.  When speaking of men of low character one must at least consider women of low character.  What got me thinking about this was the comment in the article about cat-calls.  I will relate an experience in my life and let you make your own judgement.   

After college I took my first professional job in Southern California.  During my lunch break I would nearly every day go for a solitary walk for exercise and to clear my mind for the afternoon.  The path of my walk took me through an undeveloped section of the business park in which I worked.  For years I was the only person on the sidewalk when I walked through the undeveloped section of the business park.  Then a high rise building was built in that section.  I took about 8 months to erect the metal framework and pour the concrete floors and attach the exterior skin of the building.  During that time  there were lots of people walking by that construction site, all of them women.  As one would expect there were lots of loud graphic cat-calling.  Once the building exterior skin was complete, the cat calling stopped and I was again alone on my walk.  

Edited October 17, 2017 by waitforufo

[tar]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

Tar - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article. Please read it all the way to the end before you offer comment. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gretchen-kelly/the-thing-all-women-do-you-dont-know-about_b_8630416.html

iNow,

As much as you would like to think I am a child rapist or something, I am nothing of the sort.   I am a regular, well raised, polite guy with a happy wife and two grown daughters. 

In raising my daughters I used to tell the joke that raising a boy was easier to do than raising a daughter.  With a boy you had to be concerned with where one penis was.  With a girl you had to worry about where every penis in town was.

I understand the article to some extent, but do not think it is accurate to say a woman is at a constant disadvantage.  There are dad's like me around that would and did protect my daughters from "people like me" and the power thing is not unique to women.  I am just as scared of a big hairy rich and powerful brute like Weinstein having his way with me as you are.

I am actually not afraid of that at all, but If he was my boss, I would not want to cross him.   Not afraid of being sexually assaulted, but afraid he would make my job miserable if I crossed him.

When I was at my last job, I had for many years found fault with my company's president's agenda.   After I got laid off and rehired I changed my tune and decided that whatever my president's agenda was, was my agenda.  It is not so much courage, but stupidity that causes one to bite the hand that feeds them.

Power in this country might very well accrue to more old white males than any other demographic, but you have to do some work, take on some responsibility, have some education and talent, be trustworthy and capable to get into the leadership positions and the industry leadership positions, where wealth and power can accrue.  Or steal it or inherit it, or back into a good spot somehow.

For women that get into an industry where naked lineup auditions are possible, should give them a hint for what it is they are in for.  I am not saying that anybody that gets raped is asking for it, I am saying that sex and money and power is a two way street, and women that use their sexuality to make money and accrue power, are not innocent victims of a bias system, they are willing participants in the game.

My main thesis these days is that humans like to please each other.   I like looking at a pretty girl, and a pretty girl likes me looking at her and gets pleasure from it.  I have this theory, because girls like to look good for young men.  Maybe not old guys like me, then I am a dirty old man, leering at them, but when I was a chiseled stud coming out of the Army, girls enjoyed my attention and complements.  I remember swimming in a pool at a conference where several of the women in the group where watching me swim.  Later I found out that the suit I was wearing was sort of flesh tone and thin and it looked somewhat like I was swimming naked.   I wore the suit again the next night and enjoyed the fact that women enjoyed the fact.

Regards, TAR

Edited October 17, 2017 by tar

[iNow]

I hereby retract my previous statement. I have no further interest in hearing your thoughts on this topic. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, tar said:

...

Regards, TAR

There is a big gap in your understanding of people who aren't you.

[MigL]

Seriously Swansont ?
You never made a clumsy pass at a girl/woman when you were younger ?
You've never put your foot in your mouth in mixed company ?
Never had to apologize to a woman for using inappropriate language ?
Should any of those actions have made you a criminal ?

I think you were young like the rest of us and you're lying now.
It would be really sad if someone's perception of our immature discovering of our sexuality made criminals of us all.

And no, the article wasn't specific to employer/employee, or power disparity.; it generalized to all women, and all men.
Should women be afraid of all men, because harassment happens so frequently, that even the smallest comment is perceived in a sexually threatening manner ?
Should I be afraid of any black man following me down the street at night because of my misguided perception ?
Or any muslim boarding the same plane as me ?
( that is what I was getting at )

Of course not.

H Weinstein chose NOT to stop when he was told to. And because these were young girls just getting into the business, no-one cared.
The older, established actors and actresses, who had power and could have stood up to him, chose not to although they knew what was going on.
The ones who could have done something about it, yet chose not to do so, should be ashamed of themselves.

[swansont]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Seriously Swansont ?
You never made a clumsy pass at a girl/woman when you were younger ?

There is nothing about this discussion that has to do with making a clumsy pass at a woman in a social situation.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

You've never put your foot in your mouth in mixed company ?

There is nothing about this discussion that has to do with putting one's foot in one's mouth.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Never had to apologize to a woman for using inappropriate language ?
Should any of those actions have made you a criminal ?

There is nothing criminal in the acts you described. You are conflating these with harassment and assault.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

I think you were young like the rest of us and you're lying now.
It would be really sad if someone's perception of our immature discovering of our sexuality made criminals of us all.

I think you are profoundly missing the point.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

And no, the article wasn't specific to employer/employee, or power disparity.; it generalized to all women, and all men.
Should women be afraid of all men, because harassment happens so frequently, that even the smallest comment is perceived in a sexually threatening manner ?

Given the amount of violence that exists towards women, I suspect they are all afraid at various times, which was one of the points the article made.

There was no generalization of all men as you describe. Just that you can't tell the difference between someone who might do you harm and someone who would not, just from a cursory view, and that informs your actions and behaviors.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Should I be afraid of any black man following me down the street at night because of my misguided perception ?
Or any muslim boarding the same plane as me ?
( that is what I was getting at )

Of course not.

What are the odds that any given Muslim is a terrorist, and how many are on the plane?  The reason that it's "of course not" comes down to math.

Countries worry about terrorism, because of that math. How many terrorist attacks will you experience in your life? How does that compare to women and sexual misconduct, or other violence?

 

[Ten oz]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Seriously Swansont ?
You never made a clumsy pass at a girl/woman when you were younger ?
You've never put your foot in your mouth in mixed company ?
Never had to apologize to a woman for using inappropriate language ?
Should any of those actions have made you a criminal ?

This is basically to say that it is perfectly acceptable to misbehave so long as your brand of misbehavior is relatively common. That is it fine to drink and drive because so many young people do it once or twice. That unprotected (no condom) one night stands with people you just met are safe because it is relatively common. They are many negative things which are pervasive in society. Commonality of a  behavior doesn't determine whether or not that behavior is good or bad, right or wrong, legal or illegal. Such basic ethics are taught to us at a young age with analogies like "if all your friends jump off a bridge would you". You are responsible for any stupid thing you did when you were younger and it really doesn't matter whether or not you believe others may have done similar things.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

I think you were young like the rest of us and you're lying now.
It would be really sad if someone's perception of our immature discovering of our sexuality made criminals of us all.

Not if it was a crime. Youth is no justification.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

H Weinstein chose NOT to stop when he was told to. And because these were young girls just getting into the business, no-one cared.
The older, established actors and actresses, who had power and could have stood up to him, chose not to although they knew what was going on.
The ones who could have done something about it, yet chose not to do so, should be ashamed of themselves.

People had been coming forward and Weinstein had been paying people off. The full extent of his behavior was known to different degrees by different people. Clearly if someone was aware of a crime they should have reported the crime. That said it is unclear if anyone other than his victims actually were aware of his crimes. Broadly everyone else just knew he was a pig. As for why victims don't always come forward there are a variety of reasons: fear of further victimization, embarrassment, guilt, shame, lack of faith in the system to protect them, lack of faith in people generally, etc.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Ten oz
Spacing

[swansont]

13 hours ago, tar said:

 I am actually not afraid of that at all, but If he was my boss, I would not want to cross him.   Not afraid of being sexually assaulted, but afraid he would make my job miserable if I crossed him.

When I was at my last job, I had for many years found fault with my company's president's agenda.   After I got laid off and rehired I changed my tune and decided that whatever my president's agenda was, was my agenda.  It is not so much courage, but stupidity that causes one to bite the hand that feeds them.

So what if a woman was in this situation? "Not wanting to cross him" and "his agenda is my agenda" means not speaking out when she's harassed or assaulted. 

Quote

I am not saying that anybody that gets raped is asking for it, I am saying that sex and money and power is a two way street, and women that use their sexuality to make money and accrue power, are not innocent victims of a bias system, they are willing participants in the game.

So you're saying they don't ask for it, but they *wink* ask for it.

Yeah, put me down for not wanting to hear your thoughts, too.

[tar]

10 hours ago, zapatos said:

There is a big gap in your understanding of people who aren't you.

Zapatos,

Granted.  But I know that.  I can only guess what makes other people happy.  I can not understand why someone would do something I would not do, yet I allow them to do it, and look for the reasons why they might do it.

Personally I am against my daughters ever being strippers or nude models or porn movie actresses or prostitutes  or escorts and against them getting into any abusive relationship.   But I let them live their lives, with only the knowledge that they know what would please me or displease me.

The rest of the world has no obligation to please me.  I can suggest a woman should not become a porn star, if she does not want to be a sex object, but if she becomes a porn star and somebody looks at her breasts while she is walking down the street, she has lost quite a bit of credibility when she comes over to me and slaps my face, for being a male pig.

My daughter has come to us with complaints about workmates and bosses, not harassment complaints, complaints about how someone is not doing their job, or about asking her to do something she does not think is the way she would do it.  We normally tell her that that is the way it is.   You have to put up with inept people, and just do your job, and you have to put your ego in your back pocket when it comes to your direct supervisor and the owners of your business.

iNow,

The article you posted talked about how a woman has to always smooth things over and take the non-confrontational route, and this is exactly what we all must do, all the time.   Males often work for males, and have to suppress their testosterone appropriately and take orders.  I would be very afraid in a prison of the big muscled  dude that wanted to make me his sex slave.  So I make sure I never wind up in prison, bunking with a big muscled dude that wants to make me his sex slave.

SwansonT,

I do not now or ever condone bullying or sexual assault or spousal abuse with a "wink".    I do however believe that people can put themselves in high risk situations for certain inevitabilities and need to make their own risk reward calculation as to whether they should be in the situation.

I know people who do drugs.  I do not.  I think it is stupid that they do, because of the risks.  I used to drink, I gave it up.   I used to smoke and gave it up and now think it ill advised that my wife continues to smoke, and a close cousin drinks too much wine.  But they can do what makes them happy.  They know the risks.

You often berate me for conflating ideas, but in the case of sexual harassment, it is society that is currently confused as to what they are trying to say, and they are conflating rape with me enjoying a pair or breasts on a young lady, and confusing a boss demanding sex for a raise with me telling a dirty joke or telling a woman that her dress was my favorite color and looked very nice.

During the election cycle Hilary made a big deal about how sexist Trump was, because he called a winner that let herself go, fat.   To me, everybody missed the objectifying women boat completely and continue to miss it.   The fact that women were parading around in swimsuits and  beautiful dresses was the institutional objectification.   And it is too ingrained in our society that we don't even see it.   Well look.   Look at news show where four people are sitting in full view on a stage.   The two men will be in suit and tie with their legs open and the women will be in dresses with their legs crossed.

Looks matter on TV.  The ugly and fat are usually seen as ugly and fat and the thin and beautiful are seen as thin and beautiful.

I am thinking that Weinstein and Redford would not have received the same outrage for the same transgressions.

Zapatos,

Additionally I do not understand why people watch devil movies, and movies with gratuitous violence.  I am somewhat disgusted with our society when I flip though the upper channels, looking for a good movie and see scene after scene of torture and murder and depravity.  I am somewhat bewildered when a commercial for some stupid things come along and the next week everybody has one.  So yeah, there is a big gap between me knowing what other people are thinking, and what makes them happy, and what I think they should be thinking and what I think they should be doing to make other people happy,  but that piece of paper has two sides.  You neither know what motivates me, what morals I hold, what disgusts me and what fills me with joy.  

Regards, TAR 

 

[Silvestru]

 

17 minutes ago, tar said:

I would be very afraid in a prison of the big muscled  dude that wanted to make me his sex slave.  So I make sure I never wind up in prison, bunking with a big muscled dude that wants to make me his sex slave.

I am sure everyone would be fighting over you.

I can see you are displeased with the current state of society but you are bringing up many many topics that need to be taken up separately I think.

19 minutes ago, tar said:

The rest of the world has no obligation to please me.

Your family also has no obligation to please you.

[tar]

5 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

 

 

Your family also has no obligation to please you.

They absolutely do.  What planet are you from?

[zapatos]

13 minutes ago, tar said:

Zapatos,

Granted.  But I know that.  I can only guess what makes other people happy.  I can not understand why someone would do something I would not do, yet I allow them to do it, and look for the reasons why they might do it.

 

Which makes you part of the problem. The rest of us know what is happening is wrong, and if nothing else, we are speaking out and letting others know it is not acceptable.

 

Quote

Personally I am against my daughters ever being strippers or nude models or porn movie actresses or prostitutes  or escorts

 

Well that makes you Father of the Year.

 

Quote

My daughter has come to us with complaints about workmates and bosses, not harassment complaints, complaints about how someone is not doing their job, or about asking her to do something she does not think is the way she would do it.  We normally tell her that that is the way it is.   You have to put up with inept people, and just do your job, and you have to put your ego in your back pocket when it comes to your direct supervisor and the owners of your business.

 

I have a suspicion why they don't come to you about harassment complaints...

Quote

 

1 minute ago, tar said:

They absolutely do.  What planet are you from?

You sound like you are from the era when wives and daughters were essentially the property of men.

[Silvestru]

 

Quote

 

 Silvestru said:

Your family also has no obligation to please you.

 

4 minutes ago, tar said:

They absolutely do.  What planet are you from?

Free will planet. Visit me here sometime.

[tar]

1 minute ago, Silvestru said:

 

Free will planet. Visit me here sometime.

Is there no one on your planet that has any obligations?