Harvey Weinstein

[CharonY]

What is being discussed is that a) certain people abuse their power in order to treat others as sexualized objects that b) due to the power imbalance it is not tit for tat in the sense of an agreed exchange and c) that specifically women face regular sexualization even in other innocuous settings that make them keep these types of abuse to themselves as it appears to be permeating through society (tbf, though, male victims also often do not come forward, but for the opposite reasons under the same societal structure).

What you call "PC" is essentially a coming change in society in which we believe (or at least pretend) that we want equality and treat each other with respect. Especially in public places, at work and especially in boss-employee situations (or equivalent power structures). I understand that this is a significant departure of things from even 20-30 years ago, but as usual, one is expected to navigate those shifts. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by CharonY

[swansont]

34 minutes ago, tar said:

 Um...it is a thread about Harvey Weinstein taking sexual advantage of young starlets, where Hilary has used the fact to say that we voted a sexual abuser into the Oval office and the PC on this thread have used my old white somewhat sexist maleness to impugn my society and my president.   I am defending myself and my president and my age group and sex against such silly comparisons.

"Your" president admitted to sexual assault, and his denial of such prompted several women to come forward and confirm that they, too, had been assaulted. We are not impugning him. He did that himself.

But it's this kind of denial that's part of the problem.

[Ten oz]

44 minutes ago, tar said:

The conflation of actual sexual abuse and abuse of power with making a woman feel uncomfortable.

Um...it is a thread about Harvey Weinstein taking sexual advantage of young starlets, where Hilary has used the fact to say that we voted a sexual abuser into the Oval office and the PC on this thread have used my old white somewhat sexist maleness to impugn my society and my president.   I am defending myself and my president and my age group and sex against such silly comparisons.

 

So you are the real victim in all this....

[swansont]

 

————

Here's more of the same of what we're talking about (and this is not someone expressing "normal sexuality") 

http://www.tmz.com/2017/10/18/mckayla-maroney-molested-team-usa-doctor/

125 women have come forward. It's been implied that women should just avoid a situation where they could be assaulted, or that they should have spoken up. If you fear that speaking up gets you kicked out of the program, would you speak up? Toss your dream of being in the Olympics because people might rush to defend the "good doctor"? It's not like you can go to the Olympic gymnastics team across the street, or in the next town.

I don't think it's all that different than people who decline to testify against a mob boss or drug dealer, because they don't trust the system can protect them. Yes, in the abstract they have a civic duty that they are failing to do, but in the real world things are a tad more complicated.

[Ten oz]

24 minutes ago, CharonY said:

What you call "PC" is essentially a coming change in society in which we believe (or at least pretend) that we want equality and treat each other with respect. Especially in public places, at work and especially in boss-employee situations (or equivalent power structures). I understand that this is a significant departure of things from even 20-30 years ago, but as usual, one is expected to navigate those shifts. 

Wasn't the Election of an anti PC Twitter troll proof that society is NOT too PC? 

[CharonY]

12 minutes ago, swansont said:

 

————

Here's more of the same of what we're talking about (and this is not someone expressing "normal sexuality") 

http://www.tmz.com/2017/10/18/mckayla-maroney-molested-team-usa-doctor/

125 women have come forward. It's been implied that women should just avoid a situation where they could be assaulted, or that they should have spoken up. If you fear that speaking up gets you kicked out of the program, would you speak up? Toss your dream of being in the Olympics because people might rush to defend the "good doctor"? It's not like you can go to the Olympic gymnastics team across the street, or in the next town.

I don't think it's all that different than people who decline to testify against a mob boss or drug dealer, because they don't trust the system can protect them. Yes, in the abstract they have a civic duty that they are failing to do, but in the real world things are a tad more complicated.

And as already mentioned, there are a plethora of other examples in virtually all areas where power imbalance is coupled with narrow career trajectories. What enrages me is the fact that those situations are lose-lose for the victims. If you do not rebuff vehemently enough, you had it coming and are using your sexuality because you would not cut it otherwise. If you rebuff it, you are overdramatic, it wasn't serious and clearly it will have no negative impact on your evaluation, eh? Either way it shows that one is not an equal member of the workforce. But hey, we solved sexism and women who do not cut it are probably hindered by biology on some level. 

10 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Wasn't the Election of an anti PC Twitter troll proof that society is NOT too PC? 

I really dislike the term as it apparently changes meaning constantly and is used to highlight oneself as victim. "Some PC, SJW student in a school said something mean on youtube, which proves that society is suppressing me." Sure, that is the same as having people in power actually doing horrible things.

Edited October 18, 2017 by CharonY

[waitforufo]

I opened this topic and it is about Harvey Weinstein and the culpability of women who kept Harvey Weinstein abuse secret thereby allowing other women to be abused.  Somehow it has turned into a "men are pigs" topic.  Not my intention and I wish it would stop.

Having just read the last page or so of post let me say this.  Human beings are sexual creatures.  Denying this is a mistake at both the individual and societal level as well as in our personal life and our public life.  What needs to be done is to stop sexual predators whether they are rapists or simply intentionally causing emotional distress.  Somehow however this noble objective has moved into a form of zealotry where kindnesses such a paying each other complements on our appearance, or enjoying the beauty of the opposite sex are taboo.  I felt iNow's "They don't know" link to be sad on many levels.  My primary sadness was that the author seems to believe that all men are the enemy either as predators or through obliviousness.  A minority of men are predators and few are men oblivious to the predation of women.  Not even tar.  Perhaps the problem is that women have been taught not to seek the help of men of good character.            

Edited October 18, 2017 by waitforufo

[swansont]

34 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

I opened this topic and it is about Harvey Weinstein and the culpability of women who kept Harvey Weinstein abuse secret thereby allowing other women to be abused.  Somehow it has turned into a "men are pigs" topic.  Not my intention and I wish it would stop.

You doth protest too much, methinks.

I don't see any posts which imply that.

34 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Having just read the last page or so of post let me say this.  Human beings are sexual creatures.

Much like defecation, there is a time and place for such behavior.

34 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Denying this is a mistake at both the individual and societal level as well as in our personal life and our public life.  What needs to be done is to stop sexual predators whether they are rapists or simply intentionally causing emotional distress.  Somehow however this noble objective has moved into a form of zealotry where kindnesses such a paying each other complements on our appearance, or enjoying the beauty of the opposite sex are taboo. 

The same straw man we saw earlier. Nothing in this thread has suggested that enjoying the beauty of the opposite sex is taboo. If that's the message you are getting, you need to go back and re-read it.

The discussion has been about inappropriate behavior. Harassment and assault.

34 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

I felt iNow's "They don't know" link to be sad on many levels.  My primary sadness was that the author seems to believe that all men are the enemy either as predators or through obliviousness.  A minority of men are predators and few are men oblivious to the predation of women.  Not even tar.  Perhaps the problem is that women have been taught not to seek the help of men of good character.            

How do you tell if one is of good character just by looking at them? Is there a special lapel pin?

Only a minority of men being "bad apples" in this regard is probably of little comfort when ~half the population is men. If only 2% of men behave this way and a woman interacts with 50 men a day, then that means she is interacting with one every day of her life, on average. And she probably doesn't know which one it is. Which is one reason why this argument fails.

[CharonY]

55 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Perhaps the problem is that women have been taught not to seek the help of men of good character.            

I think there are several elements of it. First, how do they know whether a man is of good character? Sure, it may be true that humans are sexual beings, but if we want equality it requires that one keeps these things in check in professional settings, otherwise women will be brought down to certain roles (and this is not only true for starlets). And yes, men may not have had bad intentions and you may consider certain things a slip up. However, if , as woman, you are in an environment full of males it is going to happen more than a couple of times. People may even be apologetic. Yet, it does become a thing that keeps nagging at the back of your mind. And since there is always a furious backlash if one actually speaks up to the wrong person, one it ends up with a very tight circle of trustees, often  with the provision to keep it to themselves.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

seek the help of men of good character

I think part of this discussion is also about ensuring this population is continually enlarged and reinforced. It's not that there are no men of good character, only that we need more and we need to recognize them. Perhaps by discussing it openly like we are here, more men will step up and help, say something when it matters (much like you feel these victims should've done).

[waitforufo]

25 minutes ago, iNow said:

I think part of this discussion is also about ensuring this population is continually enlarged and reinforced. It's not that there are no men of good character, only that we need more and we need to recognize them. Perhaps by discussing it openly like we are here, more men will step up and help, say something when it matters (much like you feel these victims should've done).

Thank you.  Based to the two post previous to yours I was going to suggest that the topic be closed.  My reading of those prior two post is that the situation is hopeless.  Those two seem to believe that since some men are misogynistic harassers and sexual predators that all women must assume that all men are and therefore women must never report harassment and sexual abuse for fear of retaliation. Case closed, game over, why even talk about the subject?  Men are pigs.  I'm much more hopeful than that.  In fact I don't believe most work places even come close to what is common in Hollywood or the greater entertainment industry.  Does any aspect of your workplace come even close to what you heard about coming out of Hollywood these days.

In the mean time I'll just keep being a man who is kind enough to notice when my coworkers put an extra effort into their appearance, change their hairstyle, got new glasses, or similar things when appropriate.  I believe it shows kindness and that I recognize them as human beings.  To not do so would, in my opinion, be cruel.  I have been doing just that for over thirty years in my profession and personal life and never had a complaint.

[CharonY]

4 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Based to the two post previous to yours I was going to suggest that the topic be closed.  My reading of those prior two post is that the situation is hopeless.  Those two seem to believe that since some men are misogynistic harassers and sexual predators that all women must assume that all men are and therefore women must never report harassment and sexual abuse for fear of retaliation. Case closed, game over, why even talk about the subject?

Actually I think the idea is the opposite. We must make it clear that harassment has no place and will not be excused. From there it follows that victims (hopefully) will have an easier time coming forward. However,  in the absence of a mechanism that reliably protects victims, we also have to acknowledge that it may not as simple as that.

7 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

In the mean time I'll just keep being a man who is kind enough to notice when my coworkers put an extra effort into their appearance, change their hairstyle, got new glasses, or similar things when appropriate.  I believe it shows kindness and that I recognize them as human beings. 

And here is where nuance and context is relevant. It depends on whether e.g. you are the boss and what other forms of interactions you have with them. If everyone compliments each other or it is otherwise clear that it is part of regular chit-chat. Yet, if the boss only positively comments looks (but not e.g. work) then it may start being problematic (i.e. if the person is only reduced to that aspect). I.e. it is not only based on words being said, but the meaning being conveyed (and the patterns thereof).

 

10 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Does any aspect of your workplace come even close to what you heard about coming out of Hollywood these days.

Actually I think the old Hollywood was really bad in that regard. But if you wonder about current times, I am not sure. At least I have not seen any comparative statistics. But one has also to acknowledge that complaints themselves are not a good indicator. As we have (hopefully) established, power structures can make reporting difficult. For example, I found that while still difficult in US academia reports of harassment are taking way more serious than they used to in Germany. And in both there have been notable cases. I do think that much of it is simply more in the open than it used to be, which goes back to the first point. Is it pervasive in all groups? Perhaps not. But then you are generally not stuck in only one group and as a woman there is a high likelihood that one experiences some sort of sexual harassment. Especially in jobs it is devastating as they also affects ones career.

 

[waitforufo]

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

And here is where nuance and context is relevant. It depends on whether e.g. you are the boss and what other forms of interactions you have with them. If everyone compliments each other or it is otherwise clear that it is part of regular chit-chat. Yet, if the boss only positively comments looks (but not e.g. work) then it may start being problematic (i.e. if the person is only reduced to that aspect). I.e. it is not only based on words being said, but the meaning being conveyed (and the patterns thereof).

Well personally I'm an equal opportunity when it comes to complements.  Those I report to, those that report to me, those in other groups with which I work.  I'm polite and good intentioned.  I believe it shows so people take it that way.  All human beings have a measure of vanity.  That's why, trust me on this, it's no fun going bald.  Complements are an affirmation intended to boost confidence of the intended listener.  As I said, they are a kindness.  The fact that we live in a society where they are considered otherwise is outré.   Next thing you know people will start being offend by words like please, thank you and you're welcome.

For example, It has been my experience that for most women a radical change in their hair style takes courage.  It takes no effort on my part to say "I like what you did with your hair."  I have never met a woman that did not appreciate such a comment.  Also, when I wear a suit to work because I'm giving a presentation to customers and my superiors, I appreciate it if anyone, but particularly a woman, complements my appearance.  It gives me confidence that my presentation will go off well or at least better.  

[CharonY]

11 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

The fact that we live in a society where they are considered otherwise is outré.   Next thing you know people will start being offend by words like please, thank you and you're welcome

I think in the given context it is absolute appropriate and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. As I said, it is about nuance and context. Complimenting someone on their looks is generally not an issue. Reducing someone to it, on the other hand, is likely to be one. Again, it is not about complimenting or certain words, but the whole behavioral set and in which context it is used. And unfortunately, sometimes things shift uncomfortably. E.g. commenting on a new hair cut is polite and potentially uplifting. But if the boss for example starts saying things like that it looks "sexier" or mentions that a certain dress is prettier and so on, it quickly becomes more personal than appropriate. Not saying that it happens in your work environment, but the issue is that in areas where professional conduct is slipping or not existing at all, it is easy to have someone messing it up for everyone. 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by CharonY

[tar]

CharonY,

I will take the  multiple neg reps I have accrued recently as suggestions that I try harder to not objectify women and to be more insistent that sexual abuse be not tolerated.

However, it is important to me that women be considered on their own merit and not get an advantage over a male because she is a girl.  I am still upset with the idea that I could lose my job if a woman feels uncomfortable in my presence.  What does that have to do with sexual assault?

Can we address the power thing, without dragging me through the mud?

It is somewhat illogical to say the only way we can solve the inequality problem is for men to give their jobs to females.   For it to be an equal playing field women should be expected to take the job from the man.  Win over the boss with trustworthiness and capability.  If a man and a woman are eying the same spot, then the better person for the job should win.   I have seen women take charge of groups and do a good job.  I back them up as surely as I do a male boss.  Maybe I should have not had her back against those who disrespected her, because she was a woman.   I consider I did the right thing, and I would do it again, but in a way, thinking that she needed my help to command the group, was probably sexist.

Same illogic on the power thing.  You can't tell someone in power, to give the power to you.  If you want the power, you have to earn it.

When somebody is my boss, they are my boss with my permission.  I choose to follow their lead for the good of the team.  The social structure, the pecking order is not set based on sex.  It is set based on utility.  A company is not there to make an employee comfortable.  The employee is there to make the company work, make money, succeed in bringing a good or service to market and servicing the customer.

I am on this thread because I question a society that forces a man off the board of his own company based on complaints of his behavior a decade ago, when the rules of behavior were different.

 Somewhat unfair to change the rules in the middle of the game.   I get it.  It is better to progress, and better to put slavery and domination behind us, and we should all do our part and try and make it better for everyone...but everyone includes me.   I have been around the last 63 years.  I have influenced the thinking of many bullies, I have fought against racism and sexism and stood up for the weak in many ways at many times.  I am not part of the problem.  This is my society and I am partially responsible for everything that has happened in the last 63 years, good and bad, improvements and setbacks.  I stand against the pendulum mostly to dampen the swing and keep us from going too far left or too far right.

I served in the Army, I campaigned for McGovern, I wrote a letter to Pete Rodino about having TV coverage of congress slightly before C-Span began covering the house.  This is my place, my country, my way of life that I have been protecting and improving for the last 50 years.   I don't like hearing that I have done it wrong.  I believe very strongly that I have done it right.

Regards, TAR

Edited October 18, 2017 by tar

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

Thank you.  Based to the two post previous to yours I was going to suggest that the topic be closed.  My reading of those prior two post is that the situation is hopeless.  Those two seem to believe that since some men are misogynistic harassers and sexual predators that all women must assume that all men are and therefore women must never report harassment and sexual abuse for fear of retaliation. Case closed, game over, why even talk about the subject?  Men are pigs.  I'm much more hopeful than that.  In fact I don't believe most work places even come close to what is common in Hollywood or the greater entertainment industry.  Does any aspect of your workplace come even close to what you heard about coming out of Hollywood these days.

In the mean time I'll just keep being a man who is kind enough to notice when my coworkers put an extra effort into their appearance, change their hairstyle, got new glasses, or similar things when appropriate.  I believe it shows kindness and that I recognize them as human beings.  To not do so would, in my opinion, be cruel.  I have been doing just that for over thirty years in my profession and personal life and never had a complaint.

An exhaustive government survey of rape and domestic violence released on Wednesday affirmed that sexual violence against women remains endemic in the United States and in some instances may be far more common than previously thought.

Nearly one in five women surveyed said they had been raped or had experienced an attempted rape at some point, and one in four reported having been beaten by an intimate partner. One in six women have been stalked, according to the report.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html

 

I think you grossly underestimate the issue. Despite 20% (wow, what a staggering number) of the women in the United States believing they have been victimized you sarcastically post "men are pigs" to imply the notion is silly and a nonstarter.  The scale of the problem is breathtaking  yet typically met with doubt and suspicion. Last thing anyone who is the victim of anything wants to do is beg to be believed and then find a way to motive and rally people to combat their own lazy apathy. I think most people work to avoid confrontation. If walking down the street most people avoid the crazy person yelling, the pigs catcalling, the addicts using, and etc. The fact the to and inidividual so few stop to confront an issue doesn't mean the issue isn't real.

[waitforufo]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

 Not saying that it happens in your work environment, but the issue is that in areas where professional conduct is slipping or not existing at all, it is easy to have someone messing it up for everyone. 

Well I refuse to let jerks mess up my normal, polite, well mannered coexistence with others.  Particularly members of the opposite sex.  I'm glad professional conduct standard exist for low lives, but I was raised to behave properly.  Like most, these conduct rules and harassment training classes are a waste of time.  I'm also tired of being painted with the same brush as sexist a-holes.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

From the article.

The study, called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, was begun in 2010 with the support of the National Institute of Justice and the Department of Defense. The study, a continuing telephone survey of a nationally representative sample of 16,507 adults, defines intimate partner and sexual violence broadly.

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Continue reading the main story

The surveyors elicited information on types of aggression not previously studied in national surveys, including sexual violence other than rape, psychological aggression, coercion and control of reproductive and sexual health.

 

So sexual assault includes since the study, coercion and control of reproductive and sexual health.

Seriously, I don't even know what types of behaviors they include under that vague, subjective umbrella.

That is the exact type of thing that worries me.  That I could have committed a sexual assault by definition and not even known it.

Regards, TAR

[swansont]

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

All human beings have a measure of vanity.  That's why, trust me on this, it's no fun going bald.   

Funny, It really hasn't bothered me at all.

Perhaps consider that your view of the world isn't universal.

1 hour ago, tar said:

 I am still upset with the idea that I could lose my job if a woman feels uncomfortable in my presence.  What does that have to do with sexual assault?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that this is a fair assessment of the state of things?

1 hour ago, tar said:

It is somewhat illogical to say the only way we can solve the inequality problem is for men to give their jobs to females.  

Who said that was the solution?

1 hour ago, tar said:

I am on this thread because I question a society that forces a man off the board of his own company based on complaints of his behavior a decade ago, when the rules of behavior were different.

Sexual harassment law has been in place since 1980, when it was declared that it was discrimination covered by the civil rights act of 1964. So no, the rules were not different a decade ago. Or even two decades ago.

 

[waitforufo]

13 minutes ago, swansont said:

Funny, It really hasn't bothered me at all.

Perhaps consider that your view of the world isn't universal.

If it's not one thing it's another.  I have read many of your post and believe me you are as vain as the next person.

[swansont]

Just now, waitforufo said:

If it's not one thing it's another.

Indeed. That was my point. So maybe don't insist that it's just the one thing. Your opinion/view is not fact.

 

[waitforufo]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

An exhaustive government survey of rape and domestic violence released on Wednesday affirmed that sexual violence against women remains endemic in the United States and in some instances may be far more common than previously thought.

Nearly one in five women surveyed said they had been raped or had experienced an attempted rape at some point, and one in four reported having been beaten by an intimate partner. One in six women have been stalked, according to the report.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html

 

I think you grossly underestimate the issue. Despite 20% (wow, what a staggering number) of the women in the United States believing they have been victimized you sarcastically post "men are pigs" to imply the notion is silly and a nonstarter.  The scale of the problem is breathtaking  yet typically met with doubt and suspicion. Last thing anyone who is the victim of anything wants to do is beg to be believed and then find a way to motive and rally people to combat their own lazy apathy. I think most people work to avoid confrontation. If walking down the street most people avoid the crazy person yelling, the pigs catcalling, the addicts using, and etc. The fact the to and inidividual so few stop to confront an issue doesn't mean the issue isn't real.

Perhaps you should go read all my posts in this topic because nothing you have written above applies to what I have written.  Please provide quotes of my posts to prove that I'm wrong.

With regard to your study, it seems that things just keep getting worse and worse for women and yet this topic has been front and center throughout my 30 plus year career.  So do you think that older people are becoming more abusive, or do the young have not respect for women?

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

Indeed. That was my point. So maybe don't insist that it's just the one thing. Your opinion/view is not fact.

 

I said all people have a measure of vanity.  you just agreed with me.  That's not an opinion, its a fact.

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

 I said all people have a measure of vanity.  you just agreed with me.  That's not an opinion, its a fact.

And that's not the part of your post I was disagreeing with. JFC, how can you be this obtuse? 

[Moontanman]

On 10/12/2017 at 11:42 AM, waitforufo said:

Recent news reports tell us of decades of sexual abuse and harassment by Harvey Weinstein.  I'm sure the abuse we have heard about is simply the tip of the iceberg.  My guess is the list of abused aspiring actresses is much larger.  The reports we have heard so far often refer to rumors of abuse swirling around Weinstein throughout his decades of abuse.  In addition there are reports that the news media has spiked stories about this subject.  What I find absent in all of this is stories questioning the ethics of actresses who remained silent about their abusive and criminal encounters with Harvey Weinstein.  How culpable are these women for the abuse of women that followed them on the casting couch?  

Let's take for example Ashley Judd.  Ms. Judd is a vocal feminist.  Here is an image of Ms. Judd protesting the comments of President Trump.

 

https://every2min.com/2017/01/22/rape-survivor-ashley-judd-explains-why-trump-triggers-so-many-sexual-assault-survivors/

Here is another image of Ashley Judd with Harvey Weinstein.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4962354/Ashley-Judd-breaks-silence-Weinstein.html

Ms. Judd could find her voice politically, but not professionally.  How many women would have avoided Harvey Weinstein abuse if she had publicly accused Weinstein?  The same question goes for all the other women abused by Harvey Weinstein.  

 

 

Really? I can't even let myself comment further but you sir are clueless... 

[waitforufo]

15 minutes ago, swansont said:

And that's not the part of your post I was disagreeing with. JFC, how can you be this obtuse? 

Who is being obtuse?  I made a comment that all people have a measure of vanity.  I then made a self depreciating comment to prove that this is true about myself.  You then implied that since you are not concerned about going bald my view of the world isn't universal.  You then admitted to being vain, proving my point.  So,  please explain oh wise one the depths of your wit and understanding to this dense mortal.

8 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Really? I can't even let myself comment further but you sir are clueless... 

No, you are obviously not capable.  What, is it the vibe of the thing?