Prostitution should be legalized in brothels

[Coveny]

First off I will provide the rules for brothels as:
1. They require condoms.
2. They accept any customer.
3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.

In 2003 Rhode Island, accidentally decriminalized prostitution. The effects of this were “caused both forcible rape offenses and gonorrhea incidence to decline for the overall population. Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009”
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20281

This breaks down into two argument in favor of legalized prostitution.

1) Rape dropped by 824. The effects of which will affect the victim for the rest of their lives. 
https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

2) Gonorrhea dropped by 1,035. STDs are a critical health concern affecting this country. 
https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3805.pdf

3) It is hypocrisy with prostitution being illegal, while porn is legal. Whatever argument can be for or against, one can be made for the other.  
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/colb.pornography/index.html?iref=allsearch

4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

5) Freedom is being able to choose what you do with your body. Choosing to have sex with someone for money is no different. 

[waitforufo]

ick

[Lord Antares]

I agree with you in all regards. Both from the point of reducing rape and ''the moral point''. There is simply nothing wrong with it. Absolutely no reason for it to be illegal. Of course, under the circumstances that no one is being threatened or forced into anything.

[Ten oz]

14 hours ago, Coveny said:

1) Rape dropped by 824. The effects of which will affect the victim for the rest of their lives. 
https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

2) Gonorrhea dropped by 1,035. STDs are a critical health concern affecting this country. 
https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3805.pdf

3) It is hypocrisy with prostitution being illegal, while porn is legal. Whatever argument can be for or against, one can be made for the other.  
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/colb.pornography/index.html?iref=allsearch

4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

5) Freedom is being able to choose what you do with your body. Choosing to have sex with someone for money is no different. 

1) - two things, rape isn't about sex (1a) and prostitutes themselves are often themselves people who have been or are being victimized (1b):

 

1a - " Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/910975

 

1b - " Between September 2005 and June 2006, 361 youth were recruited using extensive outreach methods and snowball sampling. The prevalence rates for abuse in the sample were 73% for physical abuse; 32.4% for sexual abuse; 86.8% for emotional abuse; 84.5% for physical neglect; and 93% for emotional neglect. Univariate and logistic regression analyses demonstrated that not only was sexual abuse independently associated with sex work, but emotional abuse was as well. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2254224/

 

1b (0.5) - " In the US, in 2002, the US Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation" " In addition to internationally trafficked victims, American citizens are also forced into prostitution. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, "100,000 to 293,000 children are in danger of becoming sexual commodities. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution#America

 

2 - I agree that anytime people are encouraged to test regularly and use protection it is a good thing.

 

3 - It is hypocritical but why does that mean prositution should be legal; perhaprs porn should be illegal?

http://fightthenewdrug.org/10-porn-stars-speak-openly-about-their-most-popular-scenes/

 

4 - Do hair and nails for a living isn't associated with a history of abuse, addiction, or depression. See links for #'s 1b and 3.

 

5 - Are sex workers freely making that choice of sound mind; highly debatable in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

[Coveny]

23 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

1) - two things, rape isn't about sex (1a) and prostitutes themselves are often themselves people who have been or are being victimized (1b):

1a - " Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/910975

1b - " Between September 2005 and June 2006, 361 youth were recruited using extensive outreach methods and snowball sampling. The prevalence rates for abuse in the sample were 73% for physical abuse; 32.4% for sexual abuse; 86.8% for emotional abuse; 84.5% for physical neglect; and 93% for emotional neglect. Univariate and logistic regression analyses demonstrated that not only was sexual abuse independently associated with sex work, but emotional abuse was as well. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2254224/

1b (0.5) - " In the US, in 2002, the US Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation" " In addition to internationally trafficked victims, American citizens are also forced into prostitution. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, "100,000 to 293,000 children are in danger of becoming sexual commodities. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution#America

2 - I agree that anytime people are encouraged to test regularly and use protection it is a good thing.

3 - It is hypocritical but why does that mean prositution should be legal; perhaprs porn should be illegal?

http://fightthenewdrug.org/10-porn-stars-speak-openly-about-their-most-popular-scenes/

4 - Do hair and nails for a living isn't associated with a history of abuse, addiction, or depression. See links for #'s 1b and 3.

5 - Are sex workers freely making that choice of sound mind; highly debatable in my opinion.

1 - I would disagree and the drop in rape when prostitution is legal supports my position. I will agree that prostitutes are often themselves people who have been raped, this is part of the reason to have brothels to protect sex workers.

1a - The article supports the claim stating "issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape". Now it goes on to say the sex aspect doesn't present without power or anger, but the point being rape is still about sex per your supporting article.

1b - It has been shown that legalizing prositution lowers the instances of sexual abuse. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20150299

2 - ok

3 - And yet site for free porn created by willing participants for free is destroying the porn industry. https://www.thedailybeast.com/free-porn-is-threatening-the-adult-industry-here-are-5-ways-to-save-it

4 - Cotton has a history of slavery but we still use it. There are numerous instances where prostitution exists that does not involve the abuse, addiction, and depression associated with the slave sex trade. A very valid argument could be made that by legalizing prostitution it could cripple the slave sex trade.  

5 - I don't really feel like this is a concern in the USA. In other countries I will concede there are instances of sex workers who don't have any other options, and are little more than slaves.

 

Also I'd like to thank you. You are the first person who presented supporting material for their position against my suggestion. I've gotten a lot of "you wouldn't feel that way if was your daughter" responses, and other emotional type responses, but very few that debate in my opinion, so thanks for that.

[Ten oz]

15 minutes ago, Coveny said:

1 - I would disagree and the drop in rape when prostitution is legal supports my position. I will agree that prostitutes are often themselves people who have been raped, this is part of the reason to have brothels to protect sex workers.

1a - The article supports the claim stating "issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape". Now it goes on to say the sex aspect doesn't present without power or anger, but the point being rape is still about sex per your supporting article.

1b - It has been shown that legalizing prositution lowers the instances of sexual abuse. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20150299

2 - ok

3 - And yet site for free porn created by willing participants for free is destroying the porn industry. https://www.thedailybeast.com/free-porn-is-threatening-the-adult-industry-here-are-5-ways-to-save-it

4 - Cotton has a history of slavery but we still use it. There are numerous instances where prostitution exists that does not involve the abuse, addiction, and depression associated with the slave sex trade. A very valid argument could be made that by legalizing prostitution it could cripple the slave sex trade.  

5 - I don't really feel like this is a concern in the USA. In other countries I will concede there are instances of sex workers who don't have any other options, and are little more than slaves.

 

Also I'd like to thank you. You are the first person who presented supporting material for their position against my suggestion. I've gotten a lot of "you wouldn't feel that way if was your daughter" responses, and other emotional type responses, but very few that debate in my opinion, so thanks for that.

1a - Sexuality is listed as the least important factor.

1b - In the United States Nevada is the only state with legal prostitution. They have about 30 legal brothels which meet the standards for safety you outlined. Of 5\the 50 states in the U.S. is #36 for sexual assualt per 100k women with #1 being the lowest and #50 being the highest. Nevada is real world example of what you are advocating and it isn't even amongst the top half of States when it comes to sexual assualt.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/03/opinion/sutter-alaska-rape-list/index.html

 

3 - People freely choose to use herion. We cannot confuse choice with the greater societal good. You are talking about law; Govt has a responsibility to make decision for the greater good and not merely personal choice. People would still smoke in on planes and in restaurants if allowed to make that choice. Ultimately studies have shown (previously linked) that there is a connection between victimization and sex work. Porn actresses and prostitutes are often people with emotional, mental, and chemical illnesses and addictions. Exploitation of them is the sort of ethical factor I think govt officials need to consider when determining law.

It child labor were legal do you think there are children who would willingly agree to work and parents who would willingly agree to allow their children to work? Thankfully as a society we said no to child labor willing participants or labor.

4 - Your question was what was the difference between sex workers and stylists working at salons. I don't see what slavery has to do with the response I provided. More over Govt regularly intervenes with regulations or bans in an industry where the health (physical and mental) of employees in that industry is considered at risk. Long haul truck drives have limitations on hours they can drive, athletes must sit a specified amount of time post concussion, protective clothing must be worn in a variety of industries, drug testing and psychological testing is also common in many industries and etc, etc, etc. What makes being a sex worker different than being a hair stylists is the rate of victimization and addiction; the risks associated with the industry. You are not addressing them rather are implying that because the workers themselves accept those risk all is okay. I disagree. I think the legal sex industry as it currently exists in the United States needs to be significantly more regulated than it is: drug everyone regularly, no alcohol or prescription drugs allowed on sets, money set aside by production companies for regular psychological testing and counseling, work hour limitations, and etc. etc, etc.

 

5 - Of course it is a concern. I already provided links showing that past victimiztion and addiction are factor. A crack addict with willing do anything for crack. Just because a person says yes doesn't mean it is good. People willing choose bad things for bad reasons and hurt themselves all the time.

[Coveny]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

1a - Sexuality is listed as the least important factor.

1b - In the United States Nevada is the only state with legal prostitution. They have about 30 legal brothels which meet the standards for safety you outlined. Of 5\the 50 states in the U.S. is #36 for sexual assualt per 100k women with #1 being the lowest and #50 being the highest. Nevada is real world example of what you are advocating and it isn't even amongst the top half of States when it comes to sexual assualt.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/03/opinion/sutter-alaska-rape-list/index.html

 

3 - People freely choose to use herion. We cannot confuse choice with the greater societal good. You are talking about law; Govt has a responsibility to make decision for the greater good and not merely personal choice. People would still smoke in on planes and in restaurants if allowed to make that choice. Ultimately studies have shown (previously linked) that there is a connection between victimization and sex work. Porn actresses and prostitutes are often people with emotional, mental, and chemical illnesses and addictions. Exploitation of them is the sort of ethical factor I think govt officials need to consider when determining law.

It child labor were legal do you think there are children who would willingly agree to work and parents who would willingly agree to allow their children to work? Thankfully as a society we said no to child labor willing participants or labor.

4 - Your question was what was the difference between sex workers and stylists working at salons. I don't see what slavery has to do with the response I provided. More over Govt regularly intervenes with regulations or bans in an industry where the health (physical and mental) of employees in that industry is considered at risk. Long haul truck drives have limitations on hours they can drive, athletes must sit a specified amount of time post concussion, protective clothing must be worn in a variety of industries, drug testing and psychological testing is also common in many industries and etc, etc, etc. What makes being a sex worker different than being a hair stylists is the rate of victimization and addiction; the risks associated with the industry. You are not addressing them rather are implying that because the workers themselves accept those risk all is okay. I disagree. I think the legal sex industry as it currently exists in the United States needs to be significantly more regulated than it is: drug everyone regularly, no alcohol or prescription drugs allowed on sets, money set aside by production companies for regular psychological testing and counseling, work hour limitations, and etc. etc, etc.

 

5 - Of course it is a concern. I already provided links showing that past victimiztion and addiction are factor. A crack addict with willing do anything for crack. Just because a person says yes doesn't mean it is good. People willing choose bad things for bad reasons and hurt themselves all the time.

1a - Sexuality is part of both the power and anger aspects of rape. It play enough of a factor by itself that rape drops if legal outlets are available for people who want to have sex.

1b - There are other factors that cause Nevada (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas) to have a higher than normal amount of crime. It is a party destination where Americans go to "break the rules", and has a high tourist influx of people who don't understand the "rules". So no I don't think it's a fair real world example, but the rape rates there have dropped. https://www.unlv.edu/sites/default/files/page_files/3/Rape-in-Nevada-1990-2007.pdf

3 - You haven't proven that prostitution is against the "greater good". I am attempting to prove that legalized prostitution is for the greater good, and have supporting evidence. There is really no point in addressing other things you feel are against the greater good, I agree with some and disagree with others but to get to that point you need to prove that prostitution is against the greater good, which I don't feel like you have.

4 - Your response to my question was "the history" of it. I used cotton to show that history doesn't equate to future, or even present. I admit that prostitution needs to be regulate so that people aren't taken advantage of, and abused/forced, but those expectations were outlined in the original post. A medical worker deals with infectious people all day, and there are various other jobs that deal with just as much physical contact as a sex worker does. Every job has risks, and people still choose to do those jobs. Some have even higher risks that involve death or disfigurement being well above average in the profession. So long as the individual is free to say no to the job, then I see nothing wrong with a profession that has some risks. I worked in the casino business for almost 20 years having smoke blown in my face even though I've never been a smoker. It was a negative of the job I chose to accept. That is the nature of having a job.

5 - While I will concede that the wealth inequality in America needs to be addressed very badly. I don't feel like America has gotten to the point where woman have no other options to feed their family than to become prostitutes. There are many other options that allow a person to live and provide for their family. Now I advocate a change in the welfare system that would allow anyone to have the very basics of free housing, clothes, and food, but that's a different topic. America may not be as easy to move up and down the class ladder as it use to be, but there are still many options when it comes to career path.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Coveny said:

1a - Sexuality is part of both the power and anger aspects of rape. It play enough of a factor by itself that rape drops if legal outlets are available for people who want to have sex.

1b - There are other factors that cause Nevada (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas) to have a higher than normal amount of crime. It is a party destination where Americans go to "break the rules", and has a high tourist influx of people who don't understand the "rules". So no I don't think it's a fair real world example, but the rape rates there have dropped. https://www.unlv.edu/sites/default/files/page_files/3/Rape-in-Nevada-1990-2007.pdf

3 - You haven't proven that prostitution is against the "greater good". I am attempting to prove that legalized prostitution is for the greater good, and have supporting evidence. There is really no point in addressing other things you feel are against the greater good, I agree with some and disagree with others but to get to that point you need to prove that prostitution is against the greater good, which I don't feel like you have.

4 - Your response to my question was "the history" of it. I used cotton to show that history doesn't equate to future, or even present. I admit that prostitution needs to be regulate so that people aren't taken advantage of, and abused/forced, but those expectations were outlined in the original post. A medical worker deals with infectious people all day, and there are various other jobs that deal with just as much physical contact as a sex worker does. Every job has risks, and people still choose to do those jobs. Some have even higher risks that involve death or disfigurement being well above average in the profession. So long as the individual is free to say no to the job, then I see nothing wrong with a profession that has some risks. I worked in the casino business for almost 20 years having smoke blown in my face even though I've never been a smoker. It was a negative of the job I chose to accept. That is the nature of having a job.

5 - While I will concede that the wealth inequality in America needs to be addressed very badly. I don't feel like America has gotten to the point where woman have no other options to feed their family than to become prostitutes. There are many other options that allow a person to live and provide for their family. Now I advocate a change in the welfare system that would allow anyone to have the very basics of free housing, clothes, and food, but that's a different topic. America may not be as easy to move up and down the class ladder as it use to be, but there are still many options when it comes to career path.

1a - That is your opinion based on how you feel about the issue.

1b - You think it is a poor example because there are so many other factors yet it is the only example which exists. The failure for to find the causality between sex assualt and legalized prositution to exist in Nevada which you claim would exist broadly were prostitution to be legal is certianly relevant. Additionally the link you provided addresses legal prostitution and rape in rural areas. All of Nevada is not Las Vegas. So dismissing Nevada stats all together based on Las Vegas alone is not prudent in my opinion. No two states, counties, cities, etc are identical. Ultimately the link you provided refutes the position you are advocating with the only caveat being more research would be best:

"Among the rural counties in the state, those with legalized prostitution have rape rates in 2007 that are over 5 times larger than rural counties without legalized prostitution (Table 2). The average rape rate in rural counties with legalized prostitution (46per 100,000 population) is also higher than rape rates in the urban counties within the state (42 per100,000 population).Overall, these data provide no evidence that legalized prostitution may reduce sexual assaults by providing a legitimate outlet for sexual desires. The data are more consistent with the assertion that legalized prostitution may increase a woman’s risk of sexual victimization."

https://www.unlv.edu/sites/default/files/page_files/3/Rape-in-Nevada-1990-2007.pdf

3 - You are right I have not proven prositution is against the greater good. I have reiterated the well known fact that workers in the sex industry are less healthy (mentally and physically) than society at large. I do not need to prove anythingmore than that as I am not the one advocating for some massive change; you are. It is you who has not proved there is any greater good is increasing the size of the unhealthy sex industry; which is what you are advocating. You insist it would decrease sexual assualt yet even your own "evidence" (reference 1b) does not support that position.

4 - Not history. Today, the here and now, people who work in the sex industry ( porn, exotic dancing, etc) have higher rates of addiction, depression, victimization, etc.

5 - That is you opinion and you are entitled to it but I feel the facts do not align with that opinion. What I see in the statistics is an exploitable group of sick or damaged people being taken advantage of and I don't think society at large should encourage it. As previously cited:

" In the US, in 2002, the US Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation" " In addition to internationally trafficked victims, American citizens are also forced into prostitution. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, "100,000 to 293,000 children are in danger of becoming sexual commodities. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution#America

" Between September 2005 and June 2006, 361 youth were recruited using extensive outreach methods and snowball sampling. The prevalence rates for abuse in the sample were 73% for physical abuse; 32.4% for sexual abuse; 86.8% for emotional abuse; 84.5% for physical neglect; and 93% for emotional neglect. Univariate and logistic regression analyses demonstrated that not only was sexual abuse independently associated with sex work, but emotional abuse was as well. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2254224/

 

[Coveny]

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

1a - That is your opinion based on how you feel about the issue.

1b - You think it is a poor example because there are so many other factors yet it is the only example which exists. The failure for to find the causality between sex assualt and legalized prositution to exist in Nevada which you claim would exist broadly were prostitution to be legal is certianly relevant. Additionally the link you provided addresses legal prostitution and rape in rural areas. All of Nevada is not Las Vegas. So dismissing Nevada stats all together based on Las Vegas alone is not prudent in my opinion. No two states, counties, cities, etc are identical. Ultimately the link you provided refutes the position you are advocating with the only caveat being more research would be best:

"Among the rural counties in the state, those with legalized prostitution have rape rates in 2007 that are over 5 times larger than rural counties without legalized prostitution (Table 2). The average rape rate in rural counties with legalized prostitution (46per 100,000 population) is also higher than rape rates in the urban counties within the state (42 per100,000 population).Overall, these data provide no evidence that legalized prostitution may reduce sexual assaults by providing a legitimate outlet for sexual desires. The data are more consistent with the assertion that legalized prostitution may increase a woman’s risk of sexual victimization."

https://www.unlv.edu/sites/default/files/page_files/3/Rape-in-Nevada-1990-2007.pdf

3 - You are right I have not proven prositution is against the greater good. I have reiterated the well known fact that workers in the sex industry are less healthy (mentally and physically) than society at large. I do not need to prove anythingmore than that as I am not the one advocating for some massive change; you are. It is you who has not proved there is any greater good is increasing the size of the unhealthy sex industry; which is what you are advocating. You insist it would decrease sexual assualt yet even your own "evidence" (reference 1b) does not support that position.

4 - Not history. Today, the here and now, people who work in the sex industry ( porn, exotic dancing, etc) have higher rates of addiction, depression, victimization, etc.

5 - That is you opinion and you are entitled to it but I feel the facts do not align with that opinion. What I see in the statistics is an exploitable group of sick or damaged people being taken advantage of and I don't think society at large should encourage it. As previously cited:

" In the US, in 2002, the US Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation" " In addition to internationally trafficked victims, American citizens are also forced into prostitution. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, "100,000 to 293,000 children are in danger of becoming sexual commodities. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution#America

" Between September 2005 and June 2006, 361 youth were recruited using extensive outreach methods and snowball sampling. The prevalence rates for abuse in the sample were 73% for physical abuse; 32.4% for sexual abuse; 86.8% for emotional abuse; 84.5% for physical neglect; and 93% for emotional neglect. Univariate and logistic regression analyses demonstrated that not only was sexual abuse independently associated with sex work, but emotional abuse was as well. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2254224/

 

1a - No that is what you article stated, not my "opinion". It stated there are three parts to every rape and they fall into two categories power sexuality and anger sexuality. So in all cases sexuality plays a role. For the record this is your article...

1b - I'm not sure what the graph shows the decrease in rape in nevada and the article say "no evidence legalized prostitution may reduce sexual assault." I also don't understand how rape being at 3% in nevada and 13% nationally doesn't show as evidence. I guess it's because sexual assault in regards to prostitution is 77% where nationally it's 42%. It was a bad article for me to post as I didn't read it well, I just looked at the graph and read the highlights. I'll change over to this study from the florida state university. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/object/fsu:176310/datastream/PDF/view It goes into the problems with using Nevada as an example. ie all the rape and illegal prostitution is in vegas and reno where brothels aren't legal. 

3 - I think lower rape and STDs is in fact better for the greater good. I have already proven by point, you have not however countered that.

4 - The porn industry is getting killed by free amuter porn done by willing participants. You are focusing a what is now a small subset of the available legal porn. Those individual do not have higher rates or addiction, depression, victimization, etc. 

5 - So you postion is by legalizing sex you feel like woman in America will be forced into prostitution? You do understand the brothels would be regulated and there would be no kidnapped people or children working in them right? You are attempting to compare illegal prostitution with legal prostitution, and that's not a fair comparison as any brothel found to have underage children or illegal immigrants working in it would be shut down, and the vast majority of business owners wouldn't take that sort of risk.