Mueller indictments (split from Collusion with Russia)

[Ten oz]

15 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Well at least we can agree on something.

Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team has reportedly filed the first criminal charges as part of the sprawling inquiry into Moscow’s interference in the 2016 presidential election, CNN reported..

Citing “sources briefed on the matter,” the network said a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C., approved the charges, which have been sealed by a federal judge. CNN did not indicate who had been charged, how many people had been charged, or what charges had been filed by Mueller’s team. An arrest could come by Monday. Reuters subsequently confirmed CNN's report.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/robert-mueller-sealed-indictment/544292/

 

Mueller has investigated the Dossier well as collusion and obstruction of justice. Since you agree that those who broke the law (team Clinton or team Trump) should be prosecuted I won't see you attempting to label Mueller partisan, the charges a witch hunt, or otherwise attempting to unburdenTrump and his associates of responsibility for their actions?? Ican promiseyou that if Clinton or anyone in her campaign is charged in connection with Dossier I will not defend their actions. Lets keep the goal posts anchored in place.

[tar]

Mueller has put us in a very good position this weekend.  That is, good for introspection.

On my threads I have brought up the linguistic idea that the same exact thing framed in the first person is good, second person is neutral and third person is bad.

So, each of our  arguments are turned on  their head depending on whether Mueller knocks on the President's door, or Bill Clinton's door.

But it gives us a rare opportunity to inspect our own thinking.  Rehash  the whole value thing on each point from each perspective.

My desire, during the whole election cycle was for people to stay united as Americans, give each other the benefit of the doubt, follow ones heart and mind and adhere to the laws and ones most lofty dreams and move forward together.

Reality gets in the way of lofty dreams however, and we never really know the truth of what is going on.  People are smart and smart people can fool those less smart most of the time, those of equal smartness now and again, and those smarter on rare occasion.   We all wish to be not fooled.  But it comes down to having to align oneself with a really smart person who has your best interests in mind.  However, you have no insurance that your trust is properly placed.   Bill Clinton could have been the recipient of the golden shower, as easily as Trump.

Problem is, they are both presidents of the United States.  And if Putin is interested in weakening us, he can impugn either or both or set us against each other by floating rumors or fanning the flames under any burning issue to get people yelling at each other, morally outraged at each other, and basically getting us to the point where we are referring to our own president in the third person.

 

consider the internet

or this board

There is no guarantee that someone posting here is not paid by the British government, or the North Koreans or is sympathetic to the teachings of Buddha or Marks or some economist.

It would be stupid to think our election was not influenced by foreign governments and peoples who might not align themselves with my way of life, as an American.   But if someone worked for someone in the Ukraine, who leans to the West,  they would be us, and if they worked for someone that leaned toward Putin, they would be them, and as we wonder what is going on, and we are in our car, listening to the radio, at the Lukoil station...

 

[Ten oz]

5 hours ago, tar said:

Mueller has put us in a very good position this weekend.  That is, good for introspection.

On my threads I have brought up the linguistic idea that the same exact thing framed in the first person is good, second person is neutral and third person is bad.

So, each of our  arguments are turned on  their head depending on whether Mueller knocks on the President's door, or Bill Clinton's door.

But it gives us a rare opportunity to inspect our own thinking.  Rehash  the whole value thing on each point from each perspective.

My desire, during the whole election cycle was for people to stay united as Americans, give each other the benefit of the doubt, follow ones heart and mind and adhere to the laws and ones most lofty dreams and move forward together.

Reality gets in the way of lofty dreams however, and we never really know the truth of what is going on.  People are smart and smart people can fool those less smart most of the time, those of equal smartness now and again, and those smarter on rare occasion.   We all wish to be not fooled.  But it comes down to having to align oneself with a really smart person who has your best interests in mind.  However, you have no insurance that your trust is properly placed.   Bill Clinton could have been the recipient of the golden shower, as easily as Trump.

Problem is, they are both presidents of the United States.  And if Putin is interested in weakening us, he can impugn either or both or set us against each other by floating rumors or fanning the flames under any burning issue to get people yelling at each other, morally outraged at each other, and basically getting us to the point where we are referring to our own president in the third person.

 

consider the internet

or this board

There is no guarantee that someone posting here is not paid by the British government, or the North Koreans or is sympathetic to the teachings of Buddha or Marks or some economist.

It would be stupid to think our election was not influenced by foreign governments and peoples who might not align themselves with my way of life, as an American.   But if someone worked for someone in the Ukraine, who leans to the West,  they would be us, and if they worked for someone that leaned toward Putin, they would be them, and as we wonder what is going on, and we are in our car, listening to the radio, at the Lukoil station...

 

You seem to be attempting to excuse yourself here when in my opinion you should be preparing an apologize. So let me be crystal clear and plant a solid goal post; if Clinton or her campaign is charged with crimes and Trump is vindicated by Mueller's investigation it means I was fooled by propaganda and wrong about a great number of things. That my views over the last year not only were wrong but unpatriotic and a detriment to our nation. Not merely a win some lose some innocent mistake! Likewise if and when Trump and his campiagn are charged with crimes it will mean you have been wrong. It will mean your actions will have been unpatriotic and in no way keeping with our founding principles. That you put your selfish desires above democracy. This is no some matter. This isn't some petty thing. Our (U.S.) leadership around the world, partnerships with allies, and obligations to each other have been abused.

Golden showers do not matter. We know Trump is a sexual deviant and likes Eastern European women. People voted for him understanding that. Equally people voted for Clinton knowing that Bill has a wondering eye. I do not care if Trump ever received a Golden Shower. I care about the law and integrity on equal representation under law.  Golden Showers are back ground noise. What matters is the sovereignty of our democracy and its institutions. Cheating (breaking the rules/laws) to win an election is an assualt on democracy. It renders an individuals right to representation under the law moot. If those in power broke the law to get there it means we (citizens of the U.S.) do not have a representative govt but rather are being led by an aggressive regime which essentially performed a coup. Who will you stand with?  Many (most) politicians lie or exaggerate to con voters into willfully giving their support. Mueller isn't investigating exaggerations; he is investigating crimes. So please do not soften the issue with empty rhetoric about peripheral matters pretending those things have been central all along.

Your desire thorought the election WAS NOT to stay united. You acknowledged during primary season that Trump was a lunatic and his supporters dangerously fringe. You literally said if Kasich didn't win the nomination and the choice came down to Trump or Clinton you would have to do what was right for the country, hold your nose, and vote Clinton. Then Trump won the nomination and you voted for him. You justified it by basically saying that you are white man and ultimately Trump was better for old white men and that you simply had to stick with your tribe. Tribalism, which you commonly advocate, amongst racial and gender classifications is the oppoiste of united. You actively supported division by voting for a candidated you literally acknowledged was unfit. On my father's side of the family we go back to the revolutionary war!! On my mother's side we go back a century. Family I have known fought for this country; grandfather in WW2, two uncles in Vietnam, I have been deployed overseas. You sir are not more American than me because you are a self described old white man. Your tribe deserves NO greater inheritance of this nation than mine. 

I am not expecting lightening to strike tomorrow. I suspect the initial charges will be procedural in nature designed to empower investigators with more leverage to seize records and lean on witnesses. This is all far from over and their will continue to be people carrying buckets of water behind their tribal leaders to keep the flames down long as they can in attempt to selfishly get all they can till the flames rage beyond all measures of supression.

 

[tar]

Ten Oz,

I think we are all Americans, and I love you all equally, as Americans.   It gives me no joy to see us bickering.  Some very close family member and I had a raise your voice discussion about Trump's handling of North Korea.  She thought Trump wrong to tell the North Korean leader that he would be destroyed if he menaced us or an ally. She said that bullying like that is why the North Koreans feel they have to have defense against us, that we want to destroy them.  She would not accept that the North Koreans are programmed to want to destroy Americans, and that we should let Trump be our president and side with him, over a leader that wants to kill us.  I said, let's see if Trump's approach works.   It is us that will be hurt by the devastating attack Kim Jong (un) has planned for us.  But she is already pissed at me, as is my father, as are you, that I voted Trump and that I support him as my president.  So I will have no problem turning on him, if he proves to be all the things his political opponents have accused him of being.  But I know there is a middle ground, where he can be a narcissistic, sexist,  upper class jerk, and still be a patriot, that loves his family, loves his country, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is a great negotiator and a smart no nonsense leader.

I think you are right, that Monday will not seal the deal one way or the other and prove that I am the idiot that needs to apologize, or you are the one that needs to eat some crow, but it shouldn't be framed so black and white.  Neither the left is right on everything they say nor the right.  I am not even going to try to stake out the middle ground for us all to camp in, because everybody is so polarized,  we have all extended ourselves way beyond where we would have normally reasonably stood.

Regards, TAR

 

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, tar said:

But I know there is a middle ground, where he can be a narcissistic, sexist,  upper class jerk, and still be a patriot, that loves his family, loves his country, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is a great negotiator and a smart no nonsense leader.

The problem is that we already know that Trump has none of those attributes (well, maybe he's a tea total non smoker- but that's hardly important.)

He's uninterested in his country

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-isnt-saving-jobs-thousands-have-left-the-country-since-he-took-office-d45844db11fb/

He divorced a good fraction of his family.

He's a crap negotiator- that's why the Mexicans literally told him to fuck off.

https://news.avclub.com/mexico-tells-trump-to-fuck-off-in-this-conan-without-bo-1798258295

and the US is now one of (I think) two countries not signed up to the Paris agreement.

and, while we are on the subject, that wall is not smart, and it is nonsense.

 

 

 

[Strange]

He is also a compulsive liar. 

[EdEarl]

Most politicians that I remember (circa 1960-) stretch the truth and sometimes lied. However, Trump is unbelievable, and today stretching the truth is nearly a lost art that evolved to lies.

[John Cuthber]

I also long for the days when  a politician could lose any prospect of being elected because he couldn't spell "potato(e)".

Dan Quayle must have cried when he saw Trump get away with covfefe.

. 

[tar]

so anyway,  most everybody here is doubling down on the Trump is bad deal

And you can't be wrong, because even if it turns out he was unfairly accused of being a traitor, you will find some character flaw to nail on him.

 

Good for you.   Let's see what Mueller has found.

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, tar said:

And you can't be wrong, because even if it turns out he was unfairly accused of being a traitor, you will find some character flaw to nail on him.

So you think a racist, nepotistic, corrupt liar makes for a good president? In some third world republic, maybe. Your country has become a laughing stock because you have such a clown in charge.

[tar]

Strange,

 

I take offense at that remark.

 

Regards, TAR

Disrespect your own president.  Not mine.  

who is your president, by the way?

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, tar said:

I take offense at that remark.

I don't know why. It was a fairly honest assessment of your president based on the available evidence.

5 minutes ago, tar said:

Disrespect your own president.  Not mine.

Our prime minister is merely useless. Yours is a lying buffoon.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

The topic is the indictments. Stick to that discussion, please.

 

[tar]

Ok. I deleted my draft response to Strange.

Let's see what Mueller has found, and talk then about the implications and where we should go from there.

 

[EdEarl]

I am curious about the indictments, but suspect they will have little affect on the two or three most important issues. I believe nuclear war will be avoided one way or another. The constitution tells how. Climate change will be controlled; though, US Federal actions could reduce its effects. The indictments will not stop big money politics, change tax law, protect our health, etc. Pence follows Trump in succession order, which is not much change.

[iNow]

1 minute ago, EdEarl said:

Pence follows Trump in succession order, which is not much change.

Potentially even worse since Pence is a skilled politician actually able to move the gears of government and enact his extreme ideology (as opposed to the mango Mussolini who seems to think target practice involves shooting himself in the foot).

[EdEarl]

Yes, perhaps worse, but executive orders, legislation, and amendments can change. An unfortunate trail of damage will follow, and some may be permanent, for example deaths. But, humanity can bounce back.

[Ten oz]

9 hours ago, tar said:

Ten Oz,

I think we are all Americans, and I love you all equally, as Americans.   It gives me no joy to see us bickering.  Some very close family member and I had a raise your voice discussion about Trump's handling of North Korea.  She thought Trump wrong to tell the North Korean leader that he would be destroyed if he menaced us or an ally. She said that bullying like that is why the North Koreans feel they have to have defense against us, that we want to destroy them.  She would not accept that the North Koreans are programmed to want to destroy Americans, and that we should let Trump be our president and side with him, over a leader that wants to kill us.  I said, let's see if Trump's approach works.   It is us that will be hurt by the devastating attack Kim Jong (un) has planned for us.  But she is already pissed at me, as is my father, as are you, that I voted Trump and that I support him as my president.  So I will have no problem turning on him, if he proves to be all the things his political opponents have accused him of being.  But I know there is a middle ground, where he can be a narcissistic, sexist,  upper class jerk, and still be a patriot, that loves his family, loves his country, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is a great negotiator and a smart no nonsense leader.

I think you are right, that Monday will not seal the deal one way or the other and prove that I am the idiot that needs to apologize, or you are the one that needs to eat some crow, but it shouldn't be framed so black and white.  Neither the left is right on everything they say nor the right.  I am not even going to try to stake out the middle ground for us all to camp in, because everybody is so polarized,  we have all extended ourselves way beyond where we would have normally reasonably stood.

Regards, TAR

 

If the President of the United States of America violated the law to win election there is NO MIDDLE ground between him and democracy.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Ten oz
formatting

[tar]

Ten Oz,

Well Manafort and Gates were indicted on 12 counts of conspiracy against the U.S., wire fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and more.

Gates and Manafort worked for a pro Putin Ukranian president and shady deals were done.  Allegations of wrong doing bridge from 2005 right through the 2016 election cycle where Manafort was Trump's campaign chair in charge of delegate count and instrumental in the establishment of the Republican platform including Trump's stance on sanctions against Russia.

Manafort and Gates were part of the money laundering scheme that included funneling money through off shore accounts (Cyprus I think) and then into real estate in the U.S. to hide the money from tax considerations and so on.   

This looks really bad for Trump, being a real estate guy who might have somehow been involved.  Of course in this country we are innocent until proven guilty, but I apologize for putting my faith in Trump, and today feel he may have hornswaggled me...and 46 million others.

Regards, TAR

[iNow]

Your apology is welcome, and even more welcome will be your vocal support when it comes time to support action against any misdeeds. This won't end with Manafort...

[tar]

iNow,

Still to come are any misdeeds related to the wiretapping and FISA warrants on Manaford.  Certainly not misdeeds if the integrity of the U.S. was at stake, but if done against political enemies, based on false information provided in the dossier for instance, then it was misdeeds.  It is not difficult to find a misfiling or a failure to register as a foreign agent and such and some of these activities may or may not rise to the level of traitor like behavior, depending on ones point of view.  It is for instance illegal to leak FBI and grand jury information, so how did Hilary know, as a private citizen that this stuff was going on.  

I easily connect the dots and say "real estate" "not releasing taxes" "money laundering" "Putin lobbists and lawyers in a meeting with Trump's son and Manafort" and  I see a problem.

But equally I connect the dots and see big donations to the Clinton Foundation and silly large speaking fees going to Bill Clinton during theW time Hilary was pressing the reset button and Obama administration OKing a sale of a Canadian Uranium company to associates of the Clintons, and some trucking payoffs, as problematic.

I am afraid, in the end result that the King makers of this world will operate without our vote.    It probably does not matter much who you vote for, you are really voting for the media moguls and the industrial giants and the oil and gas magnates where the wealth and power of this world is concentrated.

Why else would it matter how much money a campaign got.  Advertising costs money, but changes minds, and "fools" one group or another into thinking a candidate  is on their side.

Us average to above average individuals that are not in power and do not have any direct access to power, are most likely dupes of those who inhabit the swamp.  George Bush for instance was not smart enough to fool everybody.  He was on my level, and I could tell when he was trying to fool me.  Bill Clinton was way above me however, and I did not trust him because he was so good at fooling me.

The investigation will take Mueller wherever there are felonies.   It might not me limited to Trumps inner circle.  And it might not bypass the people that used their position in the government to damage a political opponent.  Even if that opponent was a shady dealing King maker.

Regards, TAR

 

However at this point it looks bad for Trump and unfortunately he can pardon Manafort and Gates and fire Mueller so it might be constitutional crisis time.

Edited October 30, 2017 by tar

[iNow]

And it snowballs...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-papadopolous/former-trump-adviser-papadopoulos-pleads-guilty-to-false-statements-idUSKBN1CZ1RJ?il=0

Quote

George Papadopoulos has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents, the federal special counsel said on Monday, becoming the third adviser to President Donald Trump’s campaign to face criminal charges in its investigation.

Papadopoulos, of Chicago, is an international energy lawyer who was part of Trump’s advisory team during the 2016 presidential campaign. He pleaded guilty on Oct. 5 in a case unsealed on Monday, the special counsel’s office said in a statement.

 

[swansont]

20 minutes ago, tar said:

 I easily connect the dots and say "real estate" "not releasing taxes" "money laundering" "Putin lobbists and lawyers in a meeting with Trump's son and Manafort" and  I see a problem.

But equally I connect the dots and see big donations to the Clinton Foundation and silly large speaking fees going to Bill Clinton during theW time Hilary was pressing the reset button and Obama administration OKing a sale of a Canadian Uranium company to associates of the Clintons, and some trucking payoffs, as problematic.

!

Moderator Note

You (or anyone else) is free to bring these things up in another topic. 

 

[Phi for All]

13 hours ago, EdEarl said:

The indictments will not stop big money politics, change tax law, protect our health, etc. Pence follows Trump in succession order, which is not much change.

It might if we don't accept anyone from an administration that's been found guilty of colluding with foreign powers to manipulate the election that put them in office. 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

It might if we don't accept anyone from an administration that's been found guilty of colluding with foreign powers to manipulate the election that put them in office. 

Perhaps also for another thread... but I'm unclear on what basis you could operationalize this. By what mechanism could we prevent "anyone from an administration guilty of collusion" from maintaining office and power (unless they themselves are charged / prosecuted)?

AFAIK, congress is the only body with any authority here, and it seems obvious to me that most of them (especially those with the power to actually bring this conversation to the floor or introduce a bill) don't seem to care what's happening in the Executive branch... at least not so long as it houses someone with a hand capable of holding a pen... so long as the exec branch is willing to sign legislation to remove medical care from the sick, elderly, and children, eliminate the ability of wronged consumers to sue their banks, and to sign massive deficit increasing tax cuts for the already uber wealthy into law... that's just not gonna happen.

Edited October 30, 2017 by iNow