Mueller indictments (split from Collusion with Russia)

[Ten oz]

Questions Mueller would like Trump to answer have been released. Interestingly they ask what Trump's knowledge of, reaction to, or reason for several matters which to date Trump has yet to admit publicly. Most of the questions treat a variety of previously denied events as true things which definitely happened. Seemingly any answer Trump may provide will reveal him to have lied repeatedly to the public. Not that Trump lying is news to most but there are still a few who have chased strands of plausible deniability.  

Quote

 

The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, recently provided President Trump’s lawyers a list of questions he wants answered in an interview. The New York Times obtained the list; here are the questions, along with the context and significance of each. The questions fall into categories based on four broad subjects. They are not quoted verbatim, and some were condensed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/us/politics/questions-mueller-wants-to-ask-trump-russia.html

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Ten oz

[iNow]

Informative, especially in response to those saying Mueller’s taking too long:

 

[StringJunky]

26 minutes ago, iNow said:

Informative, especially in response to those saying Mueller’s taking too long:

 

Looking like it coulld be bigger than Watergate... if I'm reading it correctly. What's your hunch, as a native, as to the likelihood of Mueller coming up with anything concrete on the main driver of  his enquiry, the collusion? I notice Trump is trying his well-worn trick of distracting by throwing accusations of spying on his campaign.

[iNow]

48 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Looking like it coulld be bigger than Watergate... if I'm reading it correctly. What's your hunch, as a native, as to the likelihood of Mueller coming up with anything concrete on the main driver of  his enquiry, the collusion? I notice Trump is trying his well-worn trick of distracting by throwing accusations of spying on his campaign.

He and his team have decided not to attack the facts, but to attack the fact finders. He knows the legal challenge is secondary to the political one. 

I feel confident Mueller already has evidence of criminal activity from Trump and his cronies, lots of it, too. He got help from Russia, probably from the Saudis, and his campaign “officials” actively sought it. His campaign manager changed the republican platform to help Russia. China invested in his properties to get help on trade. 

The gratf and corruption is there, but the president is the head of the justice department. Can the justice department indict or convict the individual with the authority to prevent them from doing so? Can the courts intervene, or does the constitution keep those powers separate?

This is the constitutional “crisis” people are referring to, but none of it matters. I don’t think Mueller will indict him. I think he’ll hand a very well supported, extremely solid evidence based report to Congress so THEY can act. 

This isn’t a legal issue, IMO. It’s a political one, and that’s part of the reason the midterm elections later this year in November are so critical. Who has power in Congress will ultimately dictate who has control of the Oval Office and accompanying executive powers. 

[StringJunky]

26 minutes ago, iNow said:

He and his team have decided not to attack the facts, but to attack the fact finders. He knows the legal challenge is secondary to the political one. 

I feel confident Mueller already has evidence of criminal activity from Trump and his cronies, lots of it, too. He got help from Russia, probably from the Saudis, and his campaign “officials” actively sought it. His campaign manager changed the republican platform to help Russia. China invested in his properties to get help on trade. 

The gratf and corruption is there, but the president is the head of the justice department. Can the justice department indict or convict the individual with the authority to prevent them from doing so? Can the courts intervene, or does the constitution keep those powers separate?

This is the constitutional “crisis” people are referring to, but none of it matters. I don’t think Mueller will indict him. I think he’ll hand a very well supported, extremely solid evidence based report to Congress so THEY can act. 

This isn’t a legal issue, IMO. It’s a political one, and that’s part of the reason the midterm elections later this year in November are so critical. Who has power in Congress will ultimately dictate who has control of the Oval Office and accompanying executive powers. 

Cheers. he can indicted when he leaves office, can't he? From what I've read so far, as head of the justice department he can't be indicted but he can be impeached. This is similar really to our monarch, she can't be tried for crimes because she is the authority all our major services act under. I'm glad, mostly, that our top authority is always from a long family line because they are trained from birth for the task.

[LaurieAG]

Here's some of the latest news. It looks like some influence pedlers share the same lawyers etc.

 https://www.apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71/The-princes,-the-president-and-the-fortune-seekers

[Ten oz]

9 hours ago, iNow said:

Informative, especially in response to those saying Mueller’s taking too long:

 

Interesting the way it jumps from Bush to Trump. Obama's tenure was the possibly the most scandal free one the U.S. has seen yet millions of those who claim to care about the constitution  and rule of law still opposed Obama. Conservatism in 2018 is purely about who welds control and not what they do with it. Nothing Mueller could find would ever be enough to cause Trump to loose his base of support. After numerous public denials regarding paying off a porn star the truth was finally revealed, proving Trump a liar again, and the response has been a soft uptick in his approval numbers. From climate change to keeping the govt out of medicare (huh?) the truth simple doesn't matter in most political discussions. 

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, Ten oz said:

From climate change to keeping the govt out of medicare (huh?) the truth simple doesn't matter in most political discussions. 

The GOP has worked very hard to make sure public funds find their way into private control. They vilify only the parts of the government designed to help those less fortunate. After they realized Trump wasn't going to "stain" them with his corruption and bigotry, they could easily see how he could make them wealthier. 

One of the most galling parts in this is how conservatives wrap themselves in the American flag while making it easier for Putin to destabilize everything the US has stood for since WWII. Russia is one big mafia state run by billionaire criminal extremists, and they've finally found a POTUS they can manipulate. The GOP used to credit Reagan with the smarts to bring down the Berlin Wall, and now openly embrace a POTUS who is dumb enough to admire the most corrupt person on the planet. 

[Ten oz]

20 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

One of the most galling parts in this is how conservatives wrap themselves in the American flag while making it easier for Putin to destabilize everything the US has stood for since WWII. Russia is one big mafia state run by billionaire criminal extremists, and they've finally found a POTUS they can manipulate. The GOP used to credit Reagan with the smarts to bring down the Berlin Wall, and now openly embrace a POTUS who is dumb enough to admire the most corrupt person on the planet. 

I think everything most conservatives (voters not the suits) say is empty. Who calls the shots is all that matters. They believe as a matter of ethnicity that it is their place to lead. They believe this is their country. Some of the deepest red states are also some of the poorest yet they stubbornly will not vote for change. They do not care about outcomes. They keep voting the same way despite negative outcomes. What matters is deeply rooted concepts of ones place in the world. Men must be the head of households, their god is the only god and all other gods are a blight against HIM, Anglo Europeans are inherently superior (but is a nice way) to all others, and etc. The White House was never meant to have a minorities and women calling the shots. The economy grew under Obama and millions of people got healthcare. Many conservatives saw improvements in their lives from Obama's policies yet still hate everything he stood for because it simply wasn't his place to be President. 

[Phi for All]

12 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

They keep voting the same way despite negative outcomes. What matters is deeply rooted concepts of ones place in the world. Men must be the head of households, their god is the only god and all other gods are a blight against HIM, Anglo Europeans are inherently superior (but is a nice way) to all others, and etc.

It seems almost engineered that these men reject intellectual arguments, don't care about being healthy or educated, and generally vote for those who actually make it harder for the working class to get by. They support the butcher with his thumb on the scale who has been pushing inferior meats cut way past the bone for years, just because the other butchers try to serve everyone fairly. It's a long con that has been very successful for the worst extremist capitalists. They've removed most of the help a government can provide, and then they made the People afraid of the government. Very handy when POTUS needs to remove the FBI's credibility.

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It seems almost engineered that these men reject intellectual arguments, don't care about being healthy or educated, and generally vote for those who actually make it harder for the working class to get by. They support the butcher with his thumb on the scale who has been pushing inferior meats cut way past the bone for years, just because the other butchers try to serve everyone fairly. It's a long con that has been very successful for the worst extremist capitalists. They've removed most of the help a government can provide, and then they made the People afraid of the government. Very handy when POTUS needs to remove the FBI's credibility.

It's like they''ve got an eye on their own future financial interests when they eventually  leave their position... ''feathering their own nest'' as my grandad used to say

12 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Here's some of the latest news. It looks like some influence pedlers share the same lawyers etc.

 https://www.apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71/The-princes,-the-president-and-the-fortune-seekers

It's appalling the depths that people will stoop to, to enrich themselves... even at the cost of peoples lives.

[rangerx]

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's appalling the depths that people will stoop to...

Despite mounting evidence, guilty pleas and indictments, the term "witch hunt" rolls off Trump's tongue in nearly every breath and through his fingers on every tweet.

Then in the absence of evidence, accuses the FBI of spying for political purposes and called for an investigation into his investigators.

The epitome of double standards and outright malice aside, it's tantamount to a witch hunt.

[Ten oz]

6 hours ago, rangerx said:

Despite mounting evidence, guilty pleas and indictments, the term "witch hunt" rolls off Trump's tongue in nearly every breath and through his fingers on every tweet.

Then in the absence of evidence, accuses the FBI of spying for political purposes and called for an investigation into his investigators.

The epitome of double standards and outright malice aside, it's tantamount to a witch hunt.

Integrity doesn't exist in the modern Republican party. Loyalty among themselves reigns supreme. They serve themselves and not the nation. Trump encapsulated the attitude when he bragged that not paying taxes made him smart. It is why his supporters are not humbled by the fact he received 3 million less votes. Winners win. Ethics, truth, equality, and etc be damned. It is about their team and winning. No one pures champagne on themselves to celebrate fair play and ethical results. Conservatives despise participation awards. Celebration is for winners. Trump's supporters find joy in the fact that he keeps winning, keeps getting away with everything. To them there are no contradictions or double standards are play. There is simply winning and losing and those who complain do so because they are losing. Playground rules. 

[Ten oz]

Trump claims that the Mueller investigation is unconstitutional and that He can pardon himself. To date Mueller has indicted 19 people 5 of whom have plead guilty already. In claiming to pardon himself he seems to be tipping his hat to the fact he absolutely has broken the law. In calling the investigation unconstitutional he appears to be implying everyone indicted to date might be pardoned. 
 

Quote

 

WASHINGTON — President Trump declared Monday that the appointment of the special counsel in the Russia investigation is “totally UNCONSTITUTIONAL!” and asserted that he has the power to pardon himself, raising the prospect that he might take extraordinary action to immunize himself from the ongoing probe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/trump-pardon-power-constitution.html

 

 

[Phi for All]

17 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Trump claims that the Mueller investigation is unconstitutional and that He can pardon himself. To date Mueller has indicted 19 people 5 of whom have plead guilty already. In claiming to pardon himself he seems to be tipping his hat to the fact he absolutely has broken the law. In calling the investigation unconstitutional he appears to be implying everyone indicted to date might be pardoned. 

Part of me feels like he's grabbing handfuls of candy from the piñata while spinning us around blindfolded. Another part thinks he's building an insanity plea. Yet another part thinks he's just struggling more the closer Mueller reels him into the boat.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Part of me feels like he's grabbing handfuls of candy from the piñata while spinning us around blindfolded. Another part thinks he's building an insanity plea. Yet another part thinks he's just struggling more the closer Mueller reels him into the boat.

It seems like Trump's base needs lead time to accept his actions. The cognitive dissonance needs to settle in. Whether through denial or claim Trump often puts narratives out there as a means of normalizing the idea. Whether it is denying trouble with McMasters or Tillerson just to fire them after awhile to his continued attacks on Sessions and Rosenstein Trump likes to let things stew on cable news long enough for his supporters to become indifferent. Trump is the source of many of the leaks he complains so often about. He uses it as a means of getting ideas out. I guess months worth of leaking that he's considering firing Mueller didn't have the impact he was hoping for so now his new tactic is to state that he can pardon the whole thing away. With 19 people already indicted it's  too late for that. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Ten oz

[Phi for All]

I'm so amazed at the double standards at work. The GOP seems to be claiming that the Justice Dept has been pro-Democrat all this time they've been in control of Congress and now the WH. The bureau found nothing actionable on multiple issues with Clinton, and got multiple indictments on a single issue with Trump, but conservatives say the FBI are all a bunch of closet liberals supporting Democratic agendas. Riiiiiiight.

Seeing as how the GOP is supposed to be the Law & Order party, I'm guessing we may see a play for a supposedly independent PRIVATE justice system. 

[Ten oz]

10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm so amazed at the double standards at work. The GOP seems to be claiming that the Justice Dept has been pro-Democrat all this time they've been in control of Congress and now the WH. The bureau found nothing actionable on multiple issues with Clinton, and got multiple indictments on a single issue with Trump, but conservatives say the FBI are all a bunch of closet liberals supporting Democratic agendas. Riiiiiiight.

Seeing as how the GOP is supposed to be the Law & Order party, I'm guessing we may see a play for a supposedly independent PRIVATE justice system. 

And the Courts. All of this is just a giant middle finger to everyone who isn't on their team. 

[Ten oz]

In lieu of all we have learned since the election about the sophistication of Cambridge Analytica in distributing fraudulent information and the targeted Russian attacks on the Clinton campaign it astonishes me a bit more people on the left are not utterly outraged. While many are many more continue tought the line Russian propaganda worked so hard to create, that Hillary Clinton was simply a bad candidate and the Democratic party mistreated Sanders. Surely whatever people believe the DNC did to Sanders or whatever imperfections people see in Clinton they are no where near the scale of criminality and anti democracy which supported Trump's campaign. 

Quote

 

Count 11 of Mueller’s indictment tells us that in or around July 2016, Russian intelligence officers hacked into a state board of elections website and “stole information related to approximately 500,000 voters.” Though the state is not named, this is probably referring to the hack of the Illinois system, during June and July 2016. But the indictment appears to reveal that more voter information was exposed than originally thought: Illinois authorities initially said that the names and personal information of fewer than 200,000 voters had been exposed, but if the hack detailed in the Mueller indictment is in fact the Illinois attack, then that number was underestimated by about 300,000.

The Mueller indictment also tells us that in addition to targeting state election sites, the hackers scanned the web presences of certain counties in Georgia, Iowa and Florida, looking for vulnerabilities.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-latest-mueller-indictment-tells-us-about-election-hacking/

 

 

[John Cuthber]

18 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In lieu of all we have learned since the election about the sophistication of Cambridge Analytica in distributing fraudulent information and the targeted Russian attacks on the Clinton campaign it astonishes me a bit more people on the left are not utterly outraged.

We are.

And I think you mean "In light of..."

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

We are.

And I think you mean "In light of..."

I didn't imply anyone in here wasn't but "many" aren't. 

Yes, may mistake. 

[iNow]

GOP has moved to impeach Rod Rosenstein for “high crimes and misdemeanors,” specifically claiming he failed to handover documents they’ve requested and thus putting the Mueller investigation itself at risk. 

Dear World War 2 Germany: What could you have done differently to avoid the rise of Naziism and Hitler? Asking for a friend...

[Ten oz]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

GOP has moved to impeach Rod Rosenstein for “high crimes and misdemeanors,” specifically claiming he failed to handover documents they’ve requested and thus putting the Mueller investigation itself at risk. 

Dear World War 2 Germany: What could you have done differently to avoid the rise of Naziism and Hitler? Asking for a friend...

Putin stood next to Trump in Helsinki and acknowledged that he wanted Trump to win and instructed his people to help. In the face of the admission Trump continued to deny it. Collusion by Trump himself directly can still be debated but accessory after the fact is a slam dunk. We have all seen it with our own stupid, fake, lying,  and crooked eyes. 

 

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Putin stood next to Trump in Helsinki and acknowledged that he wanted Trump to win and instructed his people to help. In the face of the admission Trump continued to deny it. Collusion by Trump himself directly can still be debated but accessory after the fact is a slam dunk. We have all seen it with our own stupid, fake, lying,  and crooked eyes. 

 

I'm not aware of this. He said he wanted Trump to win but he made no efforts, that I've read, in that direction. Whether he did or not is another matter.

[Ten oz]

25 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I'm not aware of this. He said he wanted Trump to win but he made no efforts, that I've read, in that direction. Whether he did or not is another matter.

If you watch the video I linked Putin was asked if he wanted Trump to win and if he had directed people to help. Putin answered yes and elaborated on why. It is important to note that Putin speaks English so one can't dismiss the interaction on bad translations. After the event both the White House and Kremlin changed the interaction in the transcripts they released. 

Quote

 

On Tuesday, I noted that one of the key exchanges in the Trump–Putin press conference in Finland doesn’t appear in full in the White House transcript, or at all in the Kremlin’s English-language transcript of the event. The Reuters reporter Jeff Mason asked, “President Putin, did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?” But how exactly did Vladimir Putin respond to those pointed questions?

If you listen to the English translation that was broadcast during the press conference, the Russian leader said, “Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the U.S.–Russia relationship back to normal.” This rendering of Putin’s remarks leaves open the possibility that he’s stating “Yes, I did” in reference not just to wanting Donald Trump to win the 2016 presidential race, but also to ordering Russian officials to help Trump win, even though Putin repeatedly denied Russian interference in the election and collusion with the Trump campaign throughout the rest of the news conference.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/putin-trump-election-translation/565481/

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ten oz