Mueller indictments (split from Collusion with Russia)

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

If you watch the video I linked Putin was asked if he wanted Trump to win and if he had directed people to help. Putin answered yes and elaborated on why. It is important to note that Putin speaks English so one can't dismiss the interaction on bad translations. After the event both the White House and Kremlin changed the interaction in the transcripts they released. 

 

OK. But Putin has repeatedly denied interfering from the beginning... that's a fact. AFAICT all he's saying is he wanted Trump to win. i can't see why he would say he did interfere at their meeting. Methinks people are reading into it what they want. I like neither of these guys but I won't let my dislike colour what i see as the facts.

[Ten oz]

17 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

OK. But Putin has repeatedly denied interfering from the beginning... that's a fact. AFAICT all he's saying is he wanted Trump to win. i can't see why he would say he did interfere at their meeting. Methinks people are reading into it what they want. I like neither of these guys but I won't let my dislike colour what i see as the facts.

Trump has continuously claimed that he believes the Intelligence Communities findings on Russian meddling while also undermining the Intelligence Communities findings. Like Trump Putin says different things at times. The facts that you don't understand why he would say what he plainly said doesn't change the fact that he said it. Also it isn't normal that both the White House and Kremlin atlered it in the official transcript. 

If I am looking at the question and answer word for word with nothing added or removed and you are saying that you don't understand the reason why Putin responded as he did and therefore he  must have meant something else, Which of us are reading into it? I am not speculating on Putin's motivates. I am commenting on what I saw and heard, what we all saw and heard. 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Putin stood next to Trump in Helsinki and acknowledged that he wanted Trump to win and instructed his people to help. In the face of the admission Trump continued to deny it. Collusion by Trump himself directly can still be debated but accessory after the fact is a slam dunk. We have all seen it with our own stupid, fake, lying,  and crooked eyes. 

Indeed, except the White House has surgically removed that part of the transcript from the Helsinki press conference. The Kremlin, interestingly, did too:

http://thehill.com/policy/international/398722-maddow-white-house-removed-putin-support-for-trump-from-official-video

 

[iNow]

Slightly off-topic and peripheral, but likely interesting to those tracking this thread.

This is a long-form read, a look at who Bob Mueller the man is and how he’s been shaped by his time in Vietnam. 

https://www.wired.com/story/robert-mueller-vietnam

Quote

It was May 2017, just days into the swirling storm set off by the firing of FBI director James Comey, and deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein wanted to know if Mueller would serve as the special counsel in the Russia investigation. The job—overseeing one of the most difficult and sensitive investigations ever undertaken by the Justice Department—may only rank as the third-hardest of Mueller’s career, after the post-9/11 FBI and after leading those Marines in Vietnam.

Having accepted the assignment as special counsel, he retreated into his prosecutor’s bunker, cut off from the rest of America.

[CharonY]

So apparently Manafort has agreed to cooperate with the Mueller investigation. It seems for a witch hunt there are a surprisingly high number of indictments and subsequent flips.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

So apparently Manafort has agreed to cooperate with the Mueller investigation. It seems for a with hunt there are a surprisingly high number of indictments and subsequent flips.

I don't think there's any doubt there was a conspiracy to win by whatever means but will he pull up the definitive link with Russian high command?

[rangerx]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

but will he pull up the definitive link with Russian high command?

He's convicted of serious crimes against the country and serving a prison term. If there was nothing there, he could just rot in jail and no one would care.

He knows where bodies are buried and Mueller will undoubtedly dig them up.

[Phi for All]

Interesting that Giuliani released a statement:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/trump-legal-team-takes-back-paul-manafort-will-tell-the-truth.html

Quote

"Once again an investigation has concluded with a plea having nothing to do with President Trump or the Trump campaign. The reason: the President did nothing wrong and Paul Manafort will tell the truth."

And minutes later, the WH legal team went in and removed the last seven words. Look for them to call him a liar if he does tell the truth.

[rangerx]

27 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Interesting that Giuliani released a statement:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/trump-legal-team-takes-back-paul-manafort-will-tell-the-truth.html

And minutes later, the WH legal team went in and removed the last seven words. Look for them to call him a liar if he does tell the truth.

It would be laughable, if it wasn't so insidious. :/

[StringJunky]

47 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Interesting that Giuliani released a statement:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/trump-legal-team-takes-back-paul-manafort-will-tell-the-truth.html

And minutes later, the WH legal team went in and removed the last seven words. Look for them to call him a liar if he does tell the truth.

Is there much difference in the integrity of the current administration with the Russian one?

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I don't think there's any doubt there was a conspiracy to win by whatever means but will he pull up the definitive link with Russian high command?

Russian Intelligence Officers have already been indicted by Mueller. The crimes against the DNC and the attacks on voting infrastructure in swings states already links to Russian high command (military intelligence). As a candidate Trump was briefed by U.S. intelligence in real time as it was happening. In response members of his team knowingly extended their hands to Russia: Trump tower meeting, Roger Stone correspondence with wiki leaks, Kushner & Flynn setting up back channel communications,and etc. All in real time while Trump himself ran cover for Russia by publicly insinuating China was responsible. The links are already there. I think the real question is what type of link is required to change enough peoples attitude. Sort of the like a  law of diffusion of innovation but for acceptance of truths one is bias against. 

[CharonY]

29 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is there much difference in the integrity of the current administration with the Russian one?

Well, there is certainly a difference in a)  expectation and b)competence in hiding lack of integrity.

[Ten oz]

41 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Well, there is certainly a difference in a)  expectation and b)competence in hiding lack of integrity.

Winning trumps everything else. Integrity is nice, transparency is nice, respect is nice, and etc but winning is absolutely awesome. Trump (the phenomenon of anger ultras) has satiated conservatives thirst for winning. Integrity hardly seems like a good reason to stop winning. No matter what happens at this point Trump has saved the Supreme Court from the clutches of Democrats and handed the rich massive tax cuts. Trump can be impeached tomorrow and if you're a conservative it will all have been worth it. Can't make an omelet without  breaking eggs. 2 life time scotus picks and tax cuts that basically ensure Bush's tax cuts stay in place for the rest the current generation life are massive wins that make everything worth it. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Ten oz

[Phi for All]

On 9/14/2018 at 1:18 PM, StringJunky said:

Is there much difference in the integrity of the current administration with the Russian one?

I think Trump's baloney brain is being used. Putin is using him to destabilize those countries allied against Russia. The GOP is using him to cherry-pick their agenda from his craziness. And those who benefit from moving the economy towards more capitalism, aka extremist capitalists, are using him to rob riches they aren't really entitled to. None of these folks are known for integrity. It's not even on their radar, except to claim they have it and their opponents don't.

[Ten oz]

Manafort got sentenced to 47 months in prison yet many Republicans and conservative pundits are taking a victory lap calling it a lite sentence. 4yrs in prison for a campaign chairman should be a serious embarrassment with lasting political implications. Instead this environment is so awash in corruption and lies 4yrs in prison is being spun by some as equal to an acquittal. 

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Manafort got sentenced to 47 months in prison yet many Republicans and conservative pundits are taking a victory lap calling it a lite sentence. 4yrs in prison for a campaign chairman should be a serious embarrassment with lasting political implications. Instead this environment is so awash in corruption and lies 4yrs in prison is being spun by some as equal to an acquittal. 

He'still got his other one yet, but, yeah, their attitude stinks. It's a long time to lose at 70 years old. I did think the prosecutor's request of 19 years was way OTT.

[swansont]

31 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Manafort got sentenced to 47 months in prison yet many Republicans and conservative pundits are taking a victory lap calling it a lite sentence. 4yrs in prison for a campaign chairman should be a serious embarrassment with lasting political implications. Instead this environment is so awash in corruption and lies 4yrs in prison is being spun by some as equal to an acquittal. 

 

12 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

He'still got his other one yet, but, yeah, their attitude stinks. It's a long time to lose at 70 years old. I did think the prosecutor's request of 19 years was way OTT.

 

Those were the federal sentencing guidelines, not the prosecutor’s request, as such. I fail to see how pointing out that the number being much smaller qualifies as corruption on the part of people pointing this out. The opposite direction, perhaps.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/15/mueller-manafort-sentencing-1173314

[iNow]

Mueller has finished his report. We don’t yet know what will be within nor how broadly and openly it’ll be shared. 

[Ten oz]

14 hours ago, iNow said:

Mueller has finished his report. We don’t yet know what will be within nor how broadly and openly it’ll be shared. 

There is a lot of questions swirling. At present time it is unclear whether there are any sealed indictments or whether Mueller's investigation finished on its own or the new AG forced the issue. Given what we already know from the Manafort and Cohen indictments it is obvious that at a minimum investigators believe Trump Jr. lied to Congress. Then of course Southern District of New York can continue with their own indictments and operate outside the purview of Barr. It will be interesting to see what gets made public, how long it takes, what Congressional investigations follow, and etc.  

[Airbrush]

"The Mueller investigation found no evidence that President Trump or any of his aides coordinated with the Russian government’s 2016 election interference, according to a summary of the special counsel’s key findings made public on Sunday by Attorney General William P. Barr."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mueller-finds-no-trump-russia-conspiracy-but-stops-short-of-exonerating-president-on-obstruction/ar-BBVaNbB?ocid=spartandhp

What this means is the amount of in-the-open "collusion" does not amount to EVIDENCE for criminal conspiracy, beyond a reasonable doubt.  That means that Trump, and those around him, were aware enough that cooperating with Russians was a no-no, so they were extra careful to not leave evidence behind.  They were smooth criminals, clever grifters.  They got away with it....so far until the several other investigations reach conclusions.

"...Mr. Mueller’s report states that “while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does NOT exonerate him” on the obstruction of justice issue."

Then, on cue, Trump announced that he is "completely and totally exonerated."

Edited March 25, 2019 by Airbrush

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, Airbrush said:

That means that Trump, and those around him, were aware enough that cooperating with Russians was a no-no, so they were extra careful to not leave evidence...

Citation?

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, Airbrush said:

 

"...Mr. Mueller’s report states that “while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does NOT exonerate him” on the obstruction of justice issue."

 

There is an implication in this that it does exonerate him of collusion with the Russian government.

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

"The Mueller investigation found no evidence that President Trump or any of his aides coordinated with the Russian government’s 2016 election interference, according to a summary of the special counsel’s key findings made public on Sunday by Attorney General William P. Barr."

That's a summary written by someone hand-picked by the president, and also, the Mueller investigation apparently only proceeded along a specific line of inquiry. IOW, there was no evidence of a specific form of collusion.

 

"We are now being told that *Mueller never investigated* the collusion allegation Trump was facing—on a money-for-sanctions-relief quid pro quo—and *instead* investigated the allegation *as Trump saw it*, which was whether he struck an agreement with the IRA or Russian hackers."

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1109913558333210629

 

Quote

"...Mr. Mueller’s report states that “while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does NOT exonerate him” on the obstruction of justice issue."

In part, because it was not Mueller's job to conclude guilt. It was to gather evidence, and let others do their job. IOW, it is up to Congress to decide if he obstructed justice.

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, swansont said:

In part, because it was not Mueller's job to conclude guilt. It was to gather evidence, and let others do their job. IOW, it is up to Congress to decide if he obstructed justice.

So, once Congress gets hold of the enquiry report, the real work begins. I don't think Mueller would want to be the person to personally point the finger anyway; he's just the messenger.

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

That's a summary written by someone hand-picked by the president, and also, the Mueller investigation apparently only proceeded along a specific line of inquiry. IOW, there was no evidence of a specific form of collusion.

 

"We are now being told that *Mueller never investigated* the collusion allegation Trump was facing—on a money-for-sanctions-relief quid pro quo—and *instead* investigated the allegation *as Trump saw it*, which was whether he struck an agreement with the IRA or Russian hackers."

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1109913558333210629

 

In part, because it was not Mueller's job to conclude guilt. It was to gather evidence, and let others do their job. IOW, it is up to Congress to decide if he obstructed justice.

Right. We have seen this time and time again. Trump's team gets out in front of a story claiming victory and then over the course of weeks as more information is learn the narrative evolves. We have not seen the report, the media has not seen the report, and Congress has not seen the report. What we've seen is a statement written by Trump's new Attorney General. Not for nothing when it was about Hillary Clinton's emails the  Attorney General Loretta Lynch, FBI Directory James Comey, and Clinton herself all testified publicly before a GOP-led Congress. 

In Barr's letter he outlined that Russian intelligence did work to influence the election and Mueller had not founding evidence that members of Trump campaign knowingly coordinated with those Russian efforts. This leaves the door open that Trumps campaign did coordinate with Russia but do so unwittingly. 

Ultimately we all need to wait to see the report. I think Trump and his defenders have done a excellent job moving the goal posts on this whole thing. During the campaign and for a year plus after they argued maybe it was China or some fat guy or whatever. They argued Trump won and Democrats are just sore losers. Now they are conceding Russia influenced in Trump's favor but are celebrating that there is no proof Trump's team knowingly helped.