Why doesn't truth matter & middle ground

[Phi for All]

24 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This thread is about the lack of truth/facts in Political discussion.

I understand the motivations behind people who voted for Trump wanting him to be innocent of colluding with Russia. I don't for a minute think they'd have given Hillary this kind of break if all the Russian controversy was on her, but I've come to expect a certain amount of hypocrisy with regard to her. She seems to break something precious in the fearful right, and nothing will fix them. But I understand wanting to move on since your candidate won.

I just don't understand the depth of willingness to accept the lies, embrace the lies, spit the lies back out. People are concerned about an infested swamp of bureaucratic corruption at the heart of our leadership, but Trump's LIES are OK?! When does that even start to make sense?! Why do so many people embrace him for "speaking his mind" when he reaches for lies the way some people reach for a cup of coffee? 

14 minutes ago, rangerx said:

A flag was invented so we could identify our allies from a distance, so we didn't kill them as they approached.

Nowadays, we can't be so sure.

Funny, I flashed on a recent incident where a young child grabbed my hand in a store without looking up, thinking I was her Dad. Pledging allegiance to the flag is like grabbing the hand without checking because it looks familiar. You can only hope it doesn't lead somewhere bad.

[rangerx]

3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I just don't understand the depth of willingness to accept the lies, embrace the lies, spit the lies back out. People are concerned about an infested swamp of bureaucratic corruption at the heart of our leadership, but Trump's LIES are OK?! When does that even start to make sense?! Why do so many people embrace him for "speaking his mind" when he reaches for lies the way some people reach for a cup of coffee? 

Party before country, at any cost.

The craziest part being, the ultra right conservative agenda is being carried out by a New York liberal.

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Party before country, at any cost.

The craziest part being, the ultra right conservative agenda is being carried out by a New York liberal.

That's how the Stasi described Trump when they were spying on him and Ivana, New York liberals who would be tax-exempt for the next 30 years, and had a good relationship with the current POTUS, Jimmy Carter. 

https://www.politico.eu/article/czech-stasi-spied-on-donald-and-ivana-trump-report/

[tar]

Ten Oz 

swansonT was quick to call my pay off figures false propaganda, and he posted payoff figures of 1 to 4 years to refute Trumps claim that it would take more years to payoff the cells than they would last

and calls Trump the denier of fact

the figures swansonT gave told nothing of the cost of manufacturing, transporting, installing and maintaining the cells so they did not address the economic payoff at all

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

He is actually just telling the truth.

Regards, TAR

Also Thread,

If you don't like my choice of Trump for president, you can do nothing about it,  If you are trying to interfere with the governance of my country then you are as suspect as Putin.   So if we are to talk socialist vs capitalist or environmentalist against oil magnate, we can go ahead and talk about those things, but the taxes I pay my governments local, state and country and what I expect in return is my business.  If we are a good country that you wish to emulate than do it.  If you wish to fix us, fix yourself first, then give suggestions.   I am not required to pledge allegiance to Canada or the U.K. you guys are my allies against ISIS and Russia and such and we share a continent and an ocean so we are neighbors, but your politics are your business my politics are mine.  The global government does not exist yet.

Regards, TAR

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by tar

[Strange]

31 minutes ago, tar said:

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

I don't have any direct involvement in your politics, but it is obvious that Trump is (and always has been) a compulsive liar. He claimed to have invented the phrase "prime the pump" and "fake news" (I'm being generous with the second one, he actually said he had invented the word "fake") which could be demonstrations of stunning ignorance but are more likely just lies. He doesn't know the difference between a lie and a fact. In his mind, if he says it then it is true. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/donald-trump-lies-liar-effect-brain-214658

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/

Edited November 20, 2017 by Strange

[rangerx]

27 minutes ago, tar said:

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

The lie about the lie.The expected doubling down on the ridiculous into the absurd.

[tar]

Stange,

 

Well slow down a bit.

I told you about the audience being a world wide audience.  Trump is a ratings guy.  Many people around the country and the world watched.  Possibly the largest audience ever.  In person attendance Obama won hands down. The largest audience claim remains highly possible.

(There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.)

This is exactly the kind of spin and misinformation that underlies the claim that Trump is a liar.  The Times documents all those "lies" and each one can be explained as an exaggeration or the words can be taken wrong and spun as a lie, when he actually said a true thing.   For instance here, he did not say two people were killed that day, he said two people were shot.

Regards, TAR

 

Take illegal voting in California for instance. Lets say it was not millions.  Lets say it was 10 or 100 or a 1000 or 10000 or a million 999 thousand, it would still not be a lie to suggest there were illegal votes cast, where people lied on forms concerning their citizenship and voted absentee.  Or somebody took elderly ballots and filled them out and sent them in, or any number of other ways an illegal vote could have been cast.  The system is rigged to not check on these things, under the guise that checking would be voter suppression.

You guys are pretty rough, giving me down votes in a tread about truth mattering, for telling the truth. 

Its restbit time again.  I will let you guys flail around in your own self righteous lies, on your own.  I am out. For a longer while.

[Strange]

23 minutes ago, tar said:

The Times documents all those "lies" and each one can be explained as an exaggeration or the words can be taken wrong and spun as a lie, when he actually said a true thing.

So you can twist the facts enough to make it sound like he wasn't actually lying. Well done you.

Quote

Take illegal voting in California for instance. Lets say it was not millions.  Lets say it was 10 or 100 or a 1000 or 10000 or a million 999 thousand, it would still not be a lie to suggest there were illegal votes cast, where people lied on forms concerning their citizenship and voted absentee.  

But he didn't just say there were illegal votes. He said there were millions. Trying to say that isn't a lie is ludicrous.

23 minutes ago, tar said:

You guys are pretty rough, giving me down votes in a tread about truth mattering, for telling the truth. 

Shame there isn't an "irony" vote.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Strange

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I understand the motivations behind people who voted for Trump wanting him to be innocent of colluding with Russia. I don't for a minute think they'd have given Hillary this kind of break if all the Russian controversy was on her, but I've come to expect a certain amount of hypocrisy with regard to her. She seems to break something precious in the fearful right, and nothing will fix them. But I understand wanting to move on since your candidate won.

I just don't understand the depth of willingness to accept the lies, embrace the lies, spit the lies back out. People are concerned about an infested swamp of bureaucratic corruption at the heart of our leadership, but Trump's LIES are OK?! When does that even start to make sense?! Why do so many people embrace him for "speaking his mind" when he reaches for lies the way some people reach for a cup of coffee? 

 

There is a very strange dichotomy at play between what people honestly understand vs what they honestly want. For example:

David Duke is an American white supremacist, white nationalist, and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan yet denies being racist "I don't consider myself a racist, I don't hate other peoples, but I certainly want to preserve my own. And I think that's true of all people."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke

David Duke understand that being racist is wrong so he denies that he is. I see this behavior all the time. People saying obviously racist things they insist they are not racist. In the case of what we see in this thread: Trump clearly denying climate change and tar claiming he didn't. There is a natural course correction which happens when one concedes they are doing something they shouldn't. In today's political environment many seem to be avoiding course correction by refusing to concede to obvious truths.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, tar said:

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

My irony meter just broke.

This tiny quote serves as a disheartening illustration of just how far we’ve fallen as a populace. 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, tar said:

Stange,

 

Well slow down a bit.

I told you about the audience being a world wide audience.  Trump is a ratings guy.  Many people around the country and the world watched.  Possibly the largest audience ever.  In person attendance Obama won hands down. The largest audience claim remains highly possible.

 

Nope! Trump and his people where talking about in person.

 

[iNow]

"If Jesus Christ gets down off the cross and told me Trump is with Russia, I would tell him, 'Hold on a second. I need to check with the President if it's true.'" [Trump voter Mark Lee to CNN / Alisyn Camerota]

[swansont]

16 hours ago, tar said:

SwansonT,

There are massive government subsidies involved with solar array placement.  You know this.  Every call you get on the phone from some solar panel installation group starts with the statement that you can get this installed for free.  Free for who?  Who is footing the bill?  Some government grant money or subsidy program, no doubt.  I don't have any citations but I was in the copier field and we leased out equipment. When you buy a house you take out a mortgage.  If it takes 26 years for the initial investment to be paid off, in terms of lower payments to the electrical grid providers, then the fact that your investment will stop working after 10 years, is a significant non starter.

I was referring to businesses, and asked you to back up your claim that solar panels last 10 years and take 26 years to pay for themselves. Not repeat your unsubstantiated blather.

Fact of the matter is, solar is now the cheapest form of electricity in sunny areas. Two years ago, there were projects that were to provide electricity at a nickel per kwh, and prices have dropped in the interim.

https://www.solarreviews.com/news/solar_energy_falls_5_cents_per_kilowatthour_093015/

So again, I will ask, why are these companies building these projects under the conditions you describe.

16 hours ago, tar said:

The valuable real estate I was thinking about was along Rt. 206 in central Jersey where there is a field I was thinking about, being where could be office buildings, factories, apartments, gas stations, convenience stores and whatever.  Not built in a clearing or on a south facing mountain slope, off the beaten path.

If it was so valuable, why hadn't those things already been built?

16 hours ago, tar said:

I take our police and courts and laws and army as a stipulation, and as the basic reason we pay taxes and have a government.   The government is not primarily made to make us happy, it is there to protect our right and ability to pursue happiness.  To set the rules and establish the playing field.  We still have to suit up and compete on that field, with a spirit of sportsmanship and common purpose. 

But you said government wasn't involved (even though I was thinking more of financial regulation than police). So other than a whole host of protection the government provides, they aren't involved. Got it.

16 hours ago, tar said:

Um, I take exception to your characterization that the GOP is giving the rich something by not taking something from them that was their's in the first place.

The government has the authority to collect taxes. That's a enumerated power of the constitution. So they are not "taking" it in the manner you insinuate.

Further, the money wasn't yours to begin with, either, so how is that relevant?

16 hours ago, tar said:

  The numbers do not have to match. 

Because trillions of welfare (or tax avoidance scams) for the rich is fine, as long as one poor person is getting some benefit, or is exploiting the system for a few dollars?  

16 hours ago, tar said:

The people that are getting welfare or transfer payments, are getting something. 

So are the people getting tax cuts, or putting their money in offshore accounts.. 

16 hours ago, tar said:

The people paying taxes are loosing something.   The wealth is going in one direction in the transaction, from the rich to the poor.  So already there is givers and takers in the equation.  I need not cite any numbers.  Bernie already has told us how the wealthiest 1 percent have a larger than 1 percent share of the wealth in this country. 

And?

16 hours ago, tar said:

The fact you are denying is that this wealthiest 1 percent also already pays more than 1 percent of the taxes paid into the federal government.

Where did I deny this?

16 hours ago, tar said:

  In fact, in addition to paying a large percent of the taxes into the federal government, they also pay a large percentage of the wages in this country, employing many of us.  So their contribution to the system is already firmly established.   Taking away loopholes, while keeping the highest tax bracket very high is not giving the rich anything.

Nothing like constructing a straw man to get the blood pumping.

You claimed that one can't use certain arguments to "take more from the rich". I was pointing out that we used to do this, and had great economic prosperity for all, when we did.  I never said that taking away loopholes was giving the rich anything. Loopholes were not mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. 

16 hours ago, tar said:

The administration has the right and the reason to have people under it that follow lawful orders.

How does this supposedly address my objection?

16 hours ago, tar said:

In the case of the ban, it would be important not to let the cat out of the bag to where people coming here to hurt us would do so quickly before the ban, or be alerted if they were on their way.

Considering that there have been no instances of people coming to hurt us who would have been affected by the ban, and Trump had announced his intentions during the campaign, I would say this is moot. 

16 hours ago, tar said:

The marginal rates are much higher than is fair for high income individuals.  Common religions would set the rate given to the poor as 10%.   Anything more is unfair.   Especially if lower income people are forgiven the expectation that they give 10 percent.    10 percent of a million is 100,000 dollars.   If a guy would give the government 100,000 I would say he is doing his part.   If a guy earning 10,000 were to give the government 1000 I would say he is doing his part.   So if we are forgiving people any tax liability on their first chunk, and asking for a percentage on their next chunk, and a higher percentage on their next chunk, this is fair to everybody and take most from the wealthiest.  Already.  

Claimed without any support. So persuasive.

16 hours ago, tar said:

  At the time of this writing, the installed cost of solar panels was between $7-$9 per watt: A 5 kW system would cost around $25,000-$35,000. Many utility companies offer incentives, and some subsidize as much as 50% of system costs.

Citation?

"The report found that since 2009 the installed cost of utility scale solar has fallen from $6.3 per watt to $3.1 per watt for projects completed in 2014—with some coming in as low as $2 per watt."

http://news.energysage.com/how-much-does-the-average-solar-panel-installation-cost-in-the-u-s/

"In 2017, most homeowners are paying between $2.87 and $3.85 per watt to install solar"

"Using the U.S, average for system size at 5 kW (5000 watts), solar panel cost will range from $10,045 to $13,475  (after tax credits)"

http://news.energysage.com/how-much-does-the-average-solar-panel-installation-cost-in-the-u-s/

Actual facts, instead of pulling numbers out of your ass.

 

16 hours ago, tar said:

Average electrical bill is about 126 a month. So if you used no electricity from the grid and got all you needed from your roof, the investment would pay off in 20 years.  But it is not always sunny, and there might be weeks your cells are snow and ice covered and you might have had to have cut down carbon sequestering trees to have your cells unshaded, and they might break or become less efficient or require replacement, before the 20 years is up.

But since your numbers are off by a factor of 2 or 3, your conclusion is wrong.

[John Cuthber]

20 hours ago, tar said:

This is exactly the kind of spin and misinformation that underlies the claim that Trump is a liar. 

Well, yes it is. 

But not in the way you think.
Trump claimed that more people were at his parade. That claim was " spin and misinformation " spouted by Trump.

And what underlies the claims that Trump is a liar are his " spin and misinformation" .

He's called liar because he keeps lying.

[Phi for All]

21 hours ago, tar said:

You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar.

He is actually just telling the truth.

Quote

Can we trust him? Probably not. He is a salesman and a negotiator, and lies through his teeth.

A year ago, you claimed Trump was a through-the-teeth liar. He certainly hasn't eased up on the lies, so what changed for you? At what point did the truth stop mattering? 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

A year ago, you claimed Trump was a through-the-teeth liar. He certainly hasn't eased up on the lies, so what changed for you? At what point did the truth stop mattering? 

tar posted the below illustration Jan 2016. It seems he was predicting his own future.

---

democrat

republican

independent

trump supporter

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/89809-what-is-americas-biggest-problem/?page=21&tab=comments#comment-902878

[tar]

https://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2017/01/trump-inauguration-streaming-audience-234056

Yes, everybody I was for Kasich and after the Comey Wiener stuff I decided to vote Trump instead of Hilary.  What changed?  I suppose I found Trump actually refreshingly honest compared to the politicians that usually run the place.  He is definitely not a lawyer, and says things he feels straight out.  He is narcissistic and never apologizes, but he does not drink. does not smoke, cares about America and our standing in the world, and does what he says.  He destroyed 12 very capable candidates in the GOP primary, and orchestrated a substantial electoral victory.  (Even though Hilary got 3 million more votes.)

But he is my president.   Along with me, 46 million other Americans voted for him.  And more importantly more electoral college votes went to him than to anybody else.  That means he got the popular vote in more states than he lost the popular vote.   He is the selection of the voters in my country.  As soon as he took the oath of office he was our president, due the respect of the office.  He speaks for me, he speaks for you, (if you are a citizen of this country) and much of the hatred toward him was established by his opponents during the race.

But this thread is about truth, and the middle ground.   It is true that the side by side pictures were taken at different times, that security measures and demonstrations and such slowed the flow of people to the mall.  It is true that Obama's first inauguration drew huge numbers more that Trump.  It is true that Reagans tv numbers were 41 million and Trumps 20, and it is true that 16 million streamed the inauguration on CNN.  Spicer is not lying to say the audience was the largest ever.   

Middle ground wise, it is possible to understand that Trump's parade route was sparse and the crowd disappointing, and still understand that the things he said about the crowd and his world wide audience were true.

He lies through his teeth, the way a salesman lies, that will hype the product.  This is not entirely a bad thing for a president, in terms of  talking up the economy, talking down the North Korean leader and saying a carrier group is on the way, even though it was in Australia.

I tend to frame it now as hyperbole, not lies.  There is much truthful substance behind Trump's actions and words since the election.  Yet he gets little love from you guys and gals.  He does not really care though, in terms of executing the responsibilities of the office.  He does the right thing, and calls you fake news for spinning it backward.

I think he has handled Russia and Syria and ISIS and North Korea, and our economy masterfully.   Yet you guys consider him a liar for the crowd thing, and a sex offender for the access Holywood tape, and under Putin's thumb because you think Putin has blackmail video of him in a hotel room in Moscow, and a colluder because his campaign entertained some offers of dirt on Hillary from the Russians.  And a global warming denier, because he is not as panic stricken as you guys are about it. Yes it is getting warmer.  Yes the industrial age is the culprit. No we should not surrender our life style because of it.  

Consider the slight to our nation, when Obama went to China and they did not provide a state welcome and did not wheel the big red carpet stairs up to airforce one.

Then consider the welcome Trump has received from the Saudis and the Chinese.

Which makes you feel the president was doing it right?

Regards, TAR

Edited November 21, 2017 by tar

[Strange]

40 minutes ago, tar said:

He speaks for me, he speaks for you

That is a dangerous attitude. It sounds like you are saying the president can't be criticised because he is the president. Next step: dictatorship.

42 minutes ago, tar said:

I tend to frame it now as hyperbole, not lies.

Pathetic.

42 minutes ago, tar said:

And a global warming denier, because he is not as panic stricken as you guys are about it.

It is nothing to do with panic. He has DENIED it.

42 minutes ago, tar said:

No we should not surrender our life style because of it.  

If we take action early enough, we may not have to. Prevaricate (and deny) for too long and it may require more drastic measures.

Actually, it is probably already too late. Lifestyles will have to change.

 

[Ten oz]

As tar's contradictions apply to this thread 

22 minutes ago, tar said:

and orchestrated a substantial electorial victory.  (Even though Hilary got 3 million more votes.)

His electoral win was 46th out 58. It was one of the closer electoral wins in history. Claiming it was "substantial"is just another lie.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/18/us/elections/donald-trump-electoral-college-popular-vote.html

23 minutes ago, tar said:

But this thread is about truth, and the middle ground.   It is true that the side by side pictures were taken at different times, that security measures and demonstrations and such slowed the flow of people to the mall.  It is true that Obama's first inauguration drew huge numbers more that Trump.  It is true that Reagans tv numbers were 41 million and Trumps 20, and it is true that 16 million streamed the inauguration on CNN.  Spicer is not lying to say the audience was the largest ever.   

Nope, already linked you Trump and Spicer specifically arguing about the physical crowd size. Arguing about tv ratings and etc was the pivot.

23 minutes ago, tar said:

He lies through his teeth, the way a salesman lies, that will hype the product.  This is not entirely a bad thing for a president, in terms of  talking up the economy, talking down the North Korean leader and saying a carrier group is on the way, even though it was in Australia.

How convenient. You see a virtue of sorts to his lying. 

25 minutes ago, tar said:

There is much truthful substance behind Trump's actions and words since the election.

Examples?

25 minutes ago, tar said:

I think he has handled Russia and Syria and ISIS and North Korea, and our economy masterfully

The Senate voted in an overwhelmingly bipartisan manner (98-2) to sanctions Russia for what they did during the election and Trump has been sitting on those sanctions and casting doubts about what actually happened. You approved of that?

What has Trump accomplished with regards to Syria or ISIS?

What is Trump's actually policy regarding North Korea? Trump's talk is loud but what is the actual policy? I am not impressed by Trump saying the U.S. will retaliate if North Korea attacks; no duh. 

50 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Actually, it is probably already too late. Lifestyles will have to change.

 

Lifestyles change all the time. I use to have a hard line phone, VHS player, and a tower based computer. The average person use to never travel further than 20 miles from the place of there birth in a lifetime. Fear of change is useless and feeding on that fear to justify stagnation always leads to trouble. 

[tar]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

That is a dangerous attitude. It sounds like you are saying the president can't be criticised because he is the president. Next step: dictatorship.

Pathetic.

It is nothing to do with panic. He has DENIED it.

If we take action early enough, we may not have to. Prevaricate (and deny) for too long and it may require more drastic measures.

Actually, it is probably already too late. Lifestyles will have to change.

 

Strange,

I remember not liking how Hilary was handling the Arab spring, and the various interference in other countries our state department orchestrated through the internet.  It seemed to me that the Kings that controlled their countries were more important as stabilizing factors than an amorphous foreign internet fostered global initiative to bring freedom and human rights to these areas...but she was my secretary of state, and women's rights and standing against oppression and human trafficking and such were important goals to me, so I considered that is what my secretary of state was doing, so that is what I was doing in the world.   I criticized but did not disavow her actions.  It was still the U.S. imposing our will on the world.  And the president was making certain moves in Iraq and Syria and Crimea, and letting American's get their heads chopped off, in ways that made me feel he was doing the wrong thing, but I still backed everything he did, as he was my president, he killed Bin Laden, and brought us out of a deep recession.  He was my president.  I just had to wait 4 years to have someone in the seat that was more aligned with my thinking.   Then I had to wait another 4 years, as he got reelected, but I always thought of him as my prestident.  Proud of his accomplishments, and critical of his failures.

There is absolutely no way a dictatorship could form in this country.   I know places to go and people to band together with, that would fight such a thing.   We have the same 320 million people here now, as we did before the election.  You need not fear any one man could destroy this country.

He did not deny global warming he downplayed humans causing it.  So he is not denying facts, he is questioning the import of the problem.  As in not ready to be told by the world how to live our lives.  You think we are past the turning point.  I don't think so.  It is more important now to use all our energy sources in the cleanest most sustainable way we can manage, and not be held hostage by a global consortium to a certain standard of living.   In other words we can and should police ourselves, but refuse to be policed by the world.  Other countries are obligated to do the same.  We don't force them to live the way we want them to live.  Everyone makes the choice on their own.

Lifestyles don't have to change.  We can simply come up with a strategy to lower the temp of the Earth 1.8 degrees in the next 200 years.  Perhaps some heat exchange system that cooled the Earth with the temperature of the upper atmosphere, or some white inert Styrofoam balls we could release on vast expanses of ocean to reflect sunlight back to space, and then collect them to let the sea and the life below absorb the sunlight again.  But we have a lot of people to make comfortable.  Maybe we should structure our tax law to not encourage large families.  You can have them if you want, but maybe you should not have more than you can afford, on your own.   Cruel, perhaps, but if we are talking survival of the planet, I think it more important to get runaway population growth under control than to say I can not drive to visit my daughter in Va. (should I use up my carbon dioxide credits or whatever solution you have in mind.)

Regards, TAR

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

As tar's contradictions apply to this thread 

His electoral win was 46th out 58. It was one of the closer electoral wins in history. Claiming it was "substantial"is just another lie.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/18/us/elections/donald-trump-electoral-college-popular-vote.html

Nope, already linked you Trump and Spicer specifically arguing about the physical crowd size. Arguing about tv ratings and etc was the pivot.

How convenient. You see a virtue of sorts to his lying. 

Examples?

The Senate voted in an overwhelmingly bipartisan manner (98-2) to sanctions Russia for what they did during the election and Trump has been sitting on those sanctions and casting doubts about what actually happened. You approved of that?

What has Trump accomplished with regards to Syria or ISIS?

What is Trump's actually policy regarding North Korea? Trump's talk is loud but what is the actual policy? I am not impressed by Trump saying the U.S. will retaliate if North Korea attacks; no duh. t

Lifestyles change all the time. I use to have a hard line phone, VHS player, and a tower based computer. The average person use to never travel further than 20 miles from the place of there birth in a lifetime. Fear of change is useless and feeding on that fear to justify stagnation always leads to trouble. 

Ten Oz,

Substantial enough.  More substantial than any victory other than Obama's victories this century.   You can not call the use of the word substantial a lie.   

I saw the weak crowds, the same as everybody else did.  The anti Trump forces hammer the fact.  There were elected officials that even boycotted the inauaceguration.  I was their duty to a peaceful transition to attend.  Instead they boycotted the inauguration and started a not my president movement.   For what?  Love of truth?  Attempting to inhabit the middle ground?   Attempting to heal the divides of a divisive campaign?  No.  To double down on never Trump rhetoric AFTER he was elected president of the U.S..

 

Regards, TAR

[iNow]

We seem to have gone from asking WHY truth doesn’t matter to instead seeing post after post from folks for whom it simply doesn’t. 

We know how this movie ends. We must change the script before production.

[swansont]

15 hours ago, tar said:

 cares about America and our standing in the world,

Our standing in the world has dropped considerably since he took office.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/17/world/nation-brand-ranking-trnd/index.html

Quote

and does what he says.

Citation needed. He's broken many more promises than he's kept.

https://thinkprogress.org/donald-trumps-100-days-of-broken-promises-a4c116bbb2b4/

 

Quote

 But this thread is about truth, and the middle ground.

Appeal to the middle ground is a logical fallacy.

Quote

  He lies through his teeth, the way a salesman lies, that will hype the product.

If he lies, how can it be that he does what he says? (see above)

Quote

This is not entirely a bad thing for a president, in terms of  talking up the economy, talking down the North Korean leader and saying a carrier group is on the way, even though it was in Australia.

It's bad when he divulges information that is supposed to be kept confidential. I seem to recall something about emails involving another presidential candidate, and how classified information being accidentally passed along was a huge deal. 

Quote

 I think he has handled Russia and Syria and ISIS and North Korea, and our economy masterfully.

And your expertise in foreign affairs is...what, exactly? Can you cite anyone with such experience who agrees with you?

Quote

  Yet you guys consider him a liar for the crowd thing

He told lies, so yes. That makes him a liar.

Quote

, and a sex offender for the access Holywood tape

Because he admitted to sexual assault. Corroborated by women who have come forward.

Quote

, and under Putin's thumb because you think Putin has blackmail video of him in a hotel room in Moscow,

For whatever reason, he has never stood up to Putin.

Quote

and a colluder because his campaign entertained some offers of dirt on Hillary from the Russians.

Which is collusion, along with all of the other contact and actions that have come to light. That makes him a colluder. 

edit: "Per CNN's latest count, at least 12 Trump associates had contacts with Russians during the campaign or transition. There were at least 19 face-to-face meetings/interactions. And there were at least 51 communications (meetings, calls, emails, private messages, etc.)"
https://twitter.com/Marshall_Cohen/status/933105412978511874

Quote

  And a global warming denier, because he is not as panic stricken as you guys are about it. Yes it is getting warmer.  Yes the industrial age is the culprit. No we should not surrender our life style because of it.

He called it a hoax by the Chinese.

 

[tar]

SwansonT,

He  gets things done.  He went to Seoul in person and gave a great speech about the wonderfulness of what South Korea has accomplished since the Korean war and how it was important to denuclearize the North, and he got a standing ovation from the parliament there. (This is at a time when 10,000 artillery pieces are aimed directly at where he stood.)  He attended a Pacific area summit and one shot had scores of leaders walking together with the president of the United States front and center. He just had a call with Putin about peace in Syria and Crimea and working together to reel in North Korea.

And you are still waiting for him to be impeached over something or another that has not been proven to have ever even occurred.

Sad.

Regards, TAR 

On the Access Hollywood tape, I used to joke with my family that I didn't wear shorts because my legs were so attractive that when women saw them they would get weak knees, faint, have car accidents and such, so it was better if I wore long pants.  These things never happened.  I also remember fibbing to associates, hinting that I was not a virgin, when I still was.  In fact, I think when I stopped talking about sex with others was when I was actually having sex with others.  This would indicate to me, that there is a strong possibility that Trump never grabbed anybody's pussy that didn't let him grab it.

Edited November 22, 2017 by tar

[Ten oz]

9 hours ago, tar said:

and letting American's get their heads chopped off,

 "letting", has the number of U.S. citizens being captured or killed aboard decreased under Trump? 

9 hours ago, tar said:

He did not deny global warming he downplayed humans causing it.  So he is not denying facts,

    

9 hours ago, tar said:

Lifestyles don't have to change

Lifestyles always change. My grandmother was born in a home in Nebraska that didn't have electricity. I was born in a full service hospital. 70yrs ago owning a car , any car, was an affluent thing.  Our (U.S.) policy toward immigration use to be “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free”.

Everything changes, lifestyles change, you do not live the way your grandparents lived. As that applies to energy and economics; you do not use the same amount of energy, eat the same diet, produce the same amount of waste, or etc as your grandparents did nor with your grand kids mirror you.

9 hours ago, tar said:

Substantial enough.  More substantial than any victory other than Obama's victories this century.   You can not call the use of the word substantial a lie.   

In context it is inaccurate and purposely misleading. 

9 hours ago, tar said:

I saw the weak crowds, the same as everybody else did.  The anti Trump forces hammer the fact.

The size of the crowds doesn't matter. These are battles Trump chooses to take on by making claims which aren't true. You are basically saying that everyone should ignore it for the sake of unity and find middle ground between Trump's lies and the truth. That isn't where middle ground can exist; between fantasy and reality. 

20 minutes ago, tar said:

SwansonT,

He  gets things done.  He went to Seoul in person and gave a great speech about the wonderfulness of what South Korea has accomplished since the Korean war and how it was important to denuclearize the North, and he got a standing ovation from the parliament there. (This is at a time when 10,000 artillery pieces are aimed directly at where he stood.)  He attended a Pacific area summit and one shot had scores of leaders walking together with the president of the United States front and center. He just had a call with Putin about peace in Syria and Crimea and working together to reel in North Korea.

And you are still waiting for him to be impeached over something or another that has not been proven to have ever even occurred.

Sad.

Regards, TAR 

 

What has he got done? North Korea has escalated their nuclear program since Trump has been in office. That is a fact. 

[swansont]

37 minutes ago, tar said:

SwansonT,

He  gets things done. 

<Sigh> Evidence of getting things done? Especially in the context of presidential actions. He doesn't "get things done" as a colloquial expression if he lags behind other presidents — which he does. What major legislation has he passed?

37 minutes ago, tar said:

He went to Seoul in person and gave a great speech about the wonderfulness of what South Korea has accomplished since the Korean war and how it was important to denuclearize the North, and he got a standing ovation from the parliament there. (This is at a time when 10,000 artillery pieces are aimed directly at where he stood.) 

Giving a speech. That's "getting things done". No other presidents gave speeches before, apparently. And somehow speech is action.

37 minutes ago, tar said:

He attended a Pacific area summit and one shot had scores of leaders walking together with the president of the United States front and center. He just had a call with Putin about peace in Syria and Crimea and working together to reel in North Korea.

Again, nothing that other presidents have done! People actually walked with the president. WOW! I am SO impressed by that.

37 minutes ago, tar said:

And you are still waiting for him to be impeached over something or another that has not been proven to have ever even occurred.

Sad.

There is something sad about this. 

37 minutes ago, tar said:

 On the Access Hollywood tape, I used to joke with my family that I didn't wear shorts because my legs were so attractive that when women saw them they would get weak knees, faint, have car accidents and such, so it was better if I wore long pants.  These things never happened.  I also remember fibbing to associates, hinting that I was not a virgin, when I still was.  In fact, I think when I stopped talking about sex with others was when I was actually having sex with others.  This would indicate to me, that there is a strong possibility that Trump never grabbed anybody's pussy that didn't let him grab it.

If you ignore the roughly 20 women that have come forward...but then, ignoring women in this way is exactly what Trump and many of his supporters are all about.