Why doesn't truth matter & middle ground

[DrP]

5 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

60 years past is not ancient history.  Either is 150 years for that matter.

Neither is 241 years.... 

It is pretty irrelevant who created it though from what I can see - what is your point? It is the current admin that is destroying it by putting unsuitable people in to run it, what is the relevance of who created it?

 

[waitforufo]

4 minutes ago, DrP said:

Neither is 241 years.... 

It is pretty irrelevant who created it though from what I can see - what is your point? It is the current admin that is destroying it by putting unsuitable people in to run it, what is the relevance of who created it?

 

Not agreeing with the Democratic party agenda for the EPA is not the same as destroying the EPA.  Also, it is not irrelevant who created the EPA.  The creator of the EPA deserves enormous credit for our current clean water and air.   

[Phi for All]

29 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

i"m happy to give Kennedy credit for proposing tax cuts and understanding how taxes are a drag on economic growth.

We'd all be happier if you understood that Kennedy cutting Eisenhower's very high marginal rates back then has little to do with the situation in the present, where corporations are sitting already on record amounts of cash and lobby for further tax exemptions. Do you remember that Kennedy also raised minimum wage, unemployment benefits, and Social Security benefits, as well as increasing Eisenhower's highway construction funding? Is any of that being thought of now, between the Wall, the reduction of consumer protection, and the other efforts to raise the wealth of the most wealthy? 

Also, Kennedy knew the Soviets were up to no good. 

[DrP]

16 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Not agreeing with the Democratic party agenda for the EPA is not the same as destroying the EPA. 

OK - I see where you are coming from but it is a matter of perspective. Putting oil oligarchs and climate change deniers in charge of it would amount to an attempt to destroy it by some.

 

18 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

  Also, it is not irrelevant who created the EPA.  The creator of the EPA deserves enormous credit for our current clean water and air.   

Well yes - I would agree with that too....  but the current day party cannot claim credit for what politicians of the same party did 60 years ago.

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

 The creator of the EPA deserves enormous credit for our current clean water and air.   

 

LMAO; clean water is found in bottles and clean air is found in literature i.e. both are fictional.

[Ten oz]

58 minutes ago, DrP said:

So a Republican created the EPA....  I fail to see the relevance of who created it 60 years ago when it is being treated with such disrespect now. I've missed a point somewhere.

 

I think, could be wrong, that waitforufo is attempting to imply that claiming Republicans aren't environmental friendly today is fake news because 60yrs ago Nixon was...

[rangerx]

27 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

The creator of the EPA deserves enormous credit for our current clean water and air.   

Let's give the Republicans a big round of applause for upholding that fine example in Flint, Michigan.

[waitforufo]

7 minutes ago, DrP said:

OK - I see where you are coming from but it is a matter of perspective. Putting oil oligarchs and climate change deniers in charge of it would amount to an attempt to destroy it by some.

 

Well yes - I would agree with that too....  but the current day party cannot claim credit for what politicians of the same party did 60 years ago.

Those some who feel that way can vote for politicians in a few years to set a different course for the EPA.

Yes the current party can claim credit for the past actions of their party.  They are also responsible for the failing of their pasts party.

 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

I didn't ask you to mention Nixon. I asked you who created the EPA.  Had you said Richard Nixon, I would have went away.

You didn't ask me, you asked Phi.

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

With regard to the middle ground, you find that by acknowledging the accomplishments of your political opponents.  

Nixon is not the political opponent of anyone in government today. Nor are any of his contemporaries. 

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Richard Nixon became president in 1968.  That was not 60 years ago.  60 years past is not ancient history.  Either is 150 years for that matter. The things a political party did 150, 60, or 40 years ago have lasting impact.  They own their history and are responsible for it.  Quit pretending otherwise.  

Never said 60 years (that's your straw man). I said a generation, which is about half that. I absolutely agree they own their history — but Trump is not responsible for what Nixon did, so don't give today's GOP credit for what the previous generation did. They don't get to bask in any glory for things they did not do.

[John Cuthber]

By today's standards, I'm not sure Nixon would be regarded as a Republican or as Right wing.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

By today's standards, I'm not sure Nixon would be regarded as a Republican or as Right wing.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 4:34 PM, Ten oz said:

What about the 2nd part; how do we find middle ground?

It seems to me that the 2 major parties are far part as they have been in sometime. Culture warfare has replace legitimate policy disputes. it is John F. Kennedy who coined "a rising tide lifts all boats" is championing tax cuts. There use to be a lot of overlap betweens parties and a lot of things everyone agreed on. Everyone had the same truth. Today parties are defined by different truths. By today's strandards Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford and Bush 41 were all Democrats:

Eisenhower - Pro NATO, Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was billions in govt infastructure spending, supported the Civil Rights Act of 57' & 60', placed National Guard members unnder federal control to enforce Brown vsthe board of education, made Earl Warren the Chief Justice of the supreme court, made HI a state, and coined "military industrial complex".

Nixon - Pro China, sought Vietnam withdraw, created the EPA, supported the Clean Air Act of 1970, supported the Philadelphia plan (affirmitive action),  and expanded medicare in 72'.

Ford - endoresedan Amnesty program for those who had refuse to fight in Vietnam, WIN program sought tax increases to combat inflation, signed the Education For All Handicapped Children Act, and was openly pro choice.

Bush 43 - Raised taxes, endorsed the Americans with Disabilities Act, reauthorized the Clean Air Act, increased legal immigration by 40%, resigned his NRA membership, pro NATO, and signed the Strategic Arms Reduction, Treaty.

 

 

 

 

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Yes the current party can claim credit for the past actions of their party.  They are also responsible for the failing of their pasts party.

I don't see how the current party can be responsible for the failings of those before them. Sins of the father much?

Claim credit, share the responsibility for correcting your failings, and move forward. But don't take a government agency funded by the People's money and do anything less than the best its capable of. Your party shares the responsibility for the Katrina response by a FEMA purposely hobbled by the leadership at the time. It left us dangerously exposed then, and it's being done to even more agencies now. The current attitude towards truth and reality seems to be leading us into blunders we've suffered historically, and not that long ago either. Truth helps you learn.

[John Cuthber]

47 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

By today's standards, I'm not sure Nixon would be regarded as a Republican or as Right wing.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 8:34 PM, Ten oz said:

... By today's strandards Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford and Bush 41 were all Democrats:

...

 

People seemed to have forgotten so I repeated it
:-).

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Also, it is not irrelevant who created the EPA.

It's irrelevant given the context in which you brought it up. Despite who created it, the EPA is in jeopardy from the current administration for no other reason than it costs corporations money to respect the beneficial regulations it enforces, which were put into law by bi-partisan representatives of the People. To put someone in the job who isn't going to do the goddamn job and enforce those rules is yet another Republican sodomization of the constitutional procedures of our government. It's reprehensible representation, and besides screwing the People out of the work they should be doing, they're taking the pay for it as well. Way to go, party of business.

[waitforufo]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I don't see how the current party can be responsible for the failings of those before them. Sins of the father much?

All political parties are defined by their history.  That is how you know what they stand for.  Why would anyone join a political party without such an understanding.

i'm just wondering.  If a Nazi told said to you that you cant associate modern Nazi's with the holocaust because it happened more  than 60 years ago, would you agree?

Somehow you don't think the Democratic party owns this 1868 presidential campaign slogan.

 

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

By today's standards, I'm not sure Nixon would be regarded as a Republican or as Right wing.

I have read on Science Forums many times liberals, progressives, and Democrats co-opting all Republicans prior to JFK. Knowing the history of the Democratic party one can hardly blame them.  But now you're claiming Nixon for your team.  You folks make me laugh.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by waitforufo

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Somehow you don't think the Democratic party owns this 1868 presidential campaign slogan.

You're moving the goalposts. You said the current party is responsible for the past party's failings. How on EARTH is today's Democratic leadership responsible for this campaign from 150 years ago? I think you're selectively broadening the definition of "responsibility" to remove all meaningfulness from it.

Is Trump responsible for the Teapot Dome Scandal? I think it was Harding, but by your standards of "responsible", maybe he was.

[waitforufo]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You're moving the goalposts. You said the current party is responsible for the past party's failings. How on EARTH is today's Democratic leadership responsible for this campaign from 150 years ago? I think you're selectively broadening the definition of "responsibility" to remove all meaningfulness from it.

Is Trump responsible for the Teapot Dome Scandal? I think it was Harding, but by your standards of "responsible", maybe he was.

Show me where I wrote the above bolded text.  That campaign slogan is part of the history of the Democratic Party.  It belongs to the Democratic Party.  It's where they come from.  I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for the holocaust, and I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for that campaign slogan and the brutality that such a sentiment generated in this country for the following 100 years resulting in oppression, murder, and lynching.  Why would anyone join a political party with such a history?  

[Phi for All]

15 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Show me where I wrote the above bolded text.

 

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You said the current party is responsible for the past party's failings.

 

5 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Yes the current party can claim credit for the past actions of their party.  They are also responsible for the failing of their pasts party.

It's possible I misunderstood what you wrote, and I invite you to point out where.

21 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

That campaign slogan is part of the history of the Democratic Party.  It belongs to the Democratic Party.  It's where they come from.  I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for the holocaust, and I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for that campaign slogan and the brutality that such a sentiment generated in this country for the following 100 years resulting in oppression, murder, and lynching.  Why would anyone join a political party with such a history?  

Wow. So instead you ignore any horrible thing your party does, as long as it's not as bad as the things you hold the Democrats responsible for. Democrats have a YUGE circle of responsibility, while your GOP has a little bitty circle over its head. You can't even think in terms of truth anymore, it seems.

[Ten oz]

32 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Show me where I wrote the above bolded text.  That campaign slogan is part of the history of the Democratic Party.  It belongs to the Democratic Party.  It's where they come from.  I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for the holocaust, and I wouldn't belong to a political party that was responsible for that campaign slogan and the brutality that such a sentiment generated in this country for the following 100 years resulting in oppression, murder, and lynching.  Why would anyone join a political party with such a history?  

Today which party do the majority of Nazi's and White Nationalist vote for? 

[waitforufo]

45 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You're moving the goalposts. You said the current party is responsible for the past party's failings. How on EARTH is today's Democratic leadership responsible for this campaign from 150 years ago? I think you're selectively broadening the definition of "responsibility" to remove all meaningfulness from it.

Is Trump responsible for the Teapot Dome Scandal? I think it was Harding, but by your standards of "responsible", maybe he was.

If a company polluted  a river 150 years ago and that company is still in existence, is that company responsible to clean it up?  If that pollution killed people, is the company responsible for compensating the decedents of those who died even today? 

If you want to know why there is race hatred in the United States, look no further than the Democratic party.  Now I know that upsets you, but that is an historical fact.   

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

 

 

It's possible I misunderstood what you wrote, and I invite you to point out where.

You are inviting a deflection, false equivalent, or total repositioning.

[waitforufo]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Today which party do the majority of Nazi's and White Nationalist vote for? 

To piss off Democrats.  But you still miss their votes don't you. 

[Phi for All]

1 minute ago, waitforufo said:

If you want to know why there is race hatred in the United States, look no further than the Democratic party.  Now I know that upsets you, but that is an historical fact.   

Oh, we took responsibility for that one, and gave all the race-hating Democrats to Nixon when he asked for them. That's an historical fact. They've been yours for 50 years, and are especially vocal right about now.

What are the Republicans going to do about them, hmm? 

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

If a company polluted  a river 150 years ago and that company is still in existence, is that company responsible to clean it up?  If that pollution killed people, is the company responsible for compensating the decedents of those who died even today? 

If you want to know why there is race hatred in the United States, look no further than the Democratic party.  Now I know that upsets you, but that is an historical fact.   

Mercedes, Volkswagen, etc built vehicles which assisted in killing hundreds of thousands of Jewish people, U.S. Citizens, Brits, and etc. Should the U.S., England, and Israel ban those companies?

 

[Phi for All]

43 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Show me where I wrote the above bolded text. 

Did you forget this part? Did you think I couldn't find it? Are you going to admit it, retract it, double-down on it?