Why doesn't truth matter & middle ground

[Strange]

Just a reminder that tar's whinging about how unfair it is that he has to pay tax to help other members of society started out with his objection to the US paying its fair share towards the problems cause by climate change.

I was listening to a program from the Solomon islands yesterday. Five islands have already disappeared completely due to rising sea levels. The cemetery island is gradually being flooded and some graves (and the contents) being washed away so people can no longer go and pay respects to their parents or grandparents. Many houses that were formerly on solid land are now in the sea and collapsing. Those people need to build new houses, but they can barely afford to. This has never been a heavily industrialised country and never will be. They need financial help to overcome the problems created by "the west" so it seems eminently reasonable for "the west" to take some responsibility. 

But no doubt tar will tell them they just need to work a bit harder so they can afford to build on higher land (while there still is some).

[dimreepr]

"Why doesn't truth matter?" because it's not about truth, it's about how far we can bury our head in the sand. Trump said he would "drain the swamp" He forgot to say he would replace mosquitos with alligators. 

[Phi for All]

https://kvond.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/how-mental-systems-believe.pdf

Daniel T. Gilbert from the U of Austin wrote about how belief in a mental system works, and apparently our minds MUST start out accepting a lie in order to then dispute it. If you don't do the required checking of what people say for veracity, you're automatically inclined to believe the lie. When someone lies almost constantly about everything, with no filters on whether it's a big lie (black people are overwhelmingly responsible for white murders) or a small one (Walt Disney painted the tiles in Trump's bathroom), people listening are overloaded and their brains stop questioning the lies. I think Trump knows this very well. Putin does.

[swansont]

15 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

https://kvond.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/how-mental-systems-believe.pdf

Daniel T. Gilbert from the U of Austin wrote about how belief in a mental system works, and apparently our minds MUST start out accepting a lie in order to then dispute it. If you don't do the required checking of what people say for veracity, you're automatically inclined to believe the lie. When someone lies almost constantly about everything, with no filters on whether it's a big lie (black people are overwhelmingly responsible for white murders) or a small one (Walt Disney painted the tiles in Trump's bathroom), people listening are overloaded and their brains stop questioning the lies. I think Trump knows this very well. Putin does.

Goebbels knew it, too. It's straight out of the authoritarian handbook. 

[rangerx]

21 hours ago, tar said:

Then consider the welcome Trump has received from the Saudis and the Chinese

I will. Trump was calling for China to branded as a currency manipulator. That makes him a liar.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rangerx

[Phi for All]

Besides approving of a through-the-teeth liar because he's also a salesman (and gosh, thanks for assuming all salesmen lie), I don't understand the whole "We need a ruthless businessman as our leader" mentality. I can only imagine that Trump supporters are no different than the rest of us, and have at one point or another been totally screwed over by a ruthless business practice. It's insane to wish that upon our fellow citizens. This isn't like hiring the toughest lawyer to defend you in court. Trump is lying to the people who put him in office like the ruthless, care-only-for-the-deal businessman who has screwed over everybody at least once in their lives. Whether it was the insurance company who denied your mother's claim, or the contractor who took your money and ran, or the private company who promised clean drinking water for your community but gave you lead poisoning instead, or the corporate raider who bought the company you sweat your life for so they could sell it for parts, or the company who raised the price of the medication you need to survive by a couple of orders of magnitude, we've all been victims of the ruthless businessman/Trump mindset. The experiences were horrible, life-wrenching, and abominable. They kept our potential diminished, and reduced our overall happiness.

And now a guy who lives to be ruthless is our leader. He's helping the uber-rich lean even more on the pool table to ensure they'll win... everything, I guess. What they have now is not enough, and I think they understand that folks like tar will believe and support them in their ruthlessness. There is no middle ground. It's the villiainaire's game (billionaire villains), and they ABSOLUTELY need you to stay and play it, but they don't actually want you to do very well. Especially if your not white and not grateful.

[John Cuthber]

24 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I can only imagine that Trump supporters are no different than the rest of us,

Actually, there are differences.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/republican-democrat-brain-politics-fmri-study_n_2717731.html

So, it's perfectly possible that both sides have been shafted by big business, but their perceptions of the experience differ.

 

It hardly matters in this contest- Trump is a very poor businessman (as you might expect from someone with poor analytical and social skills).

 

He's been repeatedly bankrupted and if he has invested that legendary "small loan of a million dollars" from his father in the stock market, he would be much richer than he is.

If he had relied on other people's brains (via the stock market) rather than his own, he would have made more money.

[Phi for All]

21 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Actually, there are differences.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/republican-democrat-brain-politics-fmri-study_n_2717731.html

So, it's perfectly possible that both sides have been shafted by big business, but their perceptions of the experience differ.

 

It hardly matters in this contest- Trump is a very poor businessman (as you might expect from someone with poor analytical and social skills).

 

He's been repeatedly bankrupted and if he has invested that legendary "small loan of a million dollars" from his father in the stock market, he would be much richer than he is.

If he had relied on other people's brains (via the stock market) rather than his own, he would have made more money.

Don't forget the fact that he hasn't paid taxes since the Carter administration. His goal his whole life has been to avoid paying his fair share towards a system that has helped him maintain great wealth. Unless anyone is foolish enough to believe Trump could have succeeded without all the underhandedness.

Maybe that's why truth doesn't matter anymore. Too many folks gave up on being good people because the bad ones were getting everything.

[tar]

Thread,

This has devolved into a hate Trump thread.  

As much as one can denounce all business men for that one that screwed you, one should encourage the other 100,000,000 that were honest fiduciaries of your belongings.

I often consider being right about things, the most important thing.  But the world is too complicated to be right about everything, all the time.   You have to put your faith in other people, to look after your interests.

In the Army I once wrote an opinion piece to Stars and Stripes, that was published.  It talked about people sometimes mistaking compassion for weakness, and it talked about giving up a few of your rights for others and how 180 million people would give up a few of their rights for you.

46 Million people voted for Trump.  These are the same people that you pass in the street, that fight and die for you, that pick up your garbage, that pray for peace in church and give to charities, that run your company, that invest your 401, that give loans to startup business, that build the ports and universities that make your way of life possible.   

It is not that we have 46 million dupes and deniers of facts in our country.  It is that we have 46 million TAR's.  Regular people, that own businesses, make investments, loan money, build stuff, solve problems, fix stuff, and take care of the place and each other.

My dad died yesterday morning.  The guy in the bottom left of my profile picture.  He was a brilliant man. A democrat. He served in the united states army fighting Hitler on a hill by the Saar river, where a machine gun bullet ripped through a nerve in his shoulder.  He was sent to  an orthopedic hospital instead of a neurological hospital and after months passed because of infection, he was finally operated on, back in the states, but the nerve had retracted and when attached it was too short and his left hand was crooked and not very functional.  His dream of being a surgeon was dashed.   He went to Muhlenberg got his masters at Lehigh and his doctor of psychology at Temple.  He taught at Upsala college in East Orange and was a psychologist in private practice in New Jersey.  He saved a lot of lives anyway.

He didn't understand why I voted for Trump.  Like you guys.  Like all the Trump haters. My sister doesn't understand, my cousin in law doesn't understand, and political discussions this thanksgiving are potentially dangerous to family cohesion.  And we, you and I, cannot resolve the differences of opinion here.   Nor should we. The differences are real. But important to family cohesion is the fact that we love each other, and want to see each other succeed in life, be free, and respected and protected from the evils of the world.  More important to love each other, than to be right.  Sometimes being right is the wrong thing to do.

So my suggestion for the table this Thanksgiving is to listen and to think about how the other is right, before you open your mouth.  And decide, before you speak, if being right is more important than having a family and a country, that will protect you from the evils of the world.

It is not important what you think Trump believes about global warming.  It is important what we as Americans, do every day, about it.

We are the same 320 million caring, capable people now, as we were, before the election.

 

 Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards, TAR

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, tar said:

It is not important what you think Trump believes about global warming.  It is important what we as Americans, do every day, about it.

To some extent you are right. The states and industry will continue to work to combat the problem, despite the president. However, much more could be done if the administration were on their side as well. As it is, the government is likely to try and block some attempts to improve things. They are dishonestly promoting "clean coal" instead of low carbon technologies. They have already attempted to block funding to any research that mentions climate change in the proposal (so scientists have just had to find alternative ways of describing what they are doing). This is dangerously close to censorship, or at least the "newspeak" of 1984.

(p.s. sorry to hear about your dad.)

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, tar said:

He didn't understand why I voted for Trump.  Like you guys.  Like all the Trump haters. My sister doesn't understand, my cousin in law doesn't understand

Which do you think is more likely... That all of these people whom you love, respect, and care about very much were all deeply misguided and that you were the only one who could see the best choice, or that perhaps you made a mistake and instead should’ve listened to and aligned with your family when voting?

1 hour ago, tar said:

So my suggestion for the table this Thanksgiving is to listen and to think about how the other is right, before you open your mouth. 

Of course. I do this all the time, but admit it doesn’t always feel this is being reciprocated. Too often, arguments are dismissed with labels (liberal, SJW, MSM, left, as infinitude...) and the respect you advocate must go both ways.

Further, the more I listen the more I see deep factual errors in their statements and become increasingly disheartened about how truth doesn’t seem to matter to them (as per this thread).

It’s difficult using facts and reason to argue someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither. In short, it’s hard to find common ground with a person denying the existence of the ground itself.

Btw - Likewise on my condolences about your dad. I lost mine a few decades ago and know the wound to our mental well-being such passings create. We may frequently disagree online, but that doesn’t negate our shared humanity and understanding of loss. I hope the positive memories you have of him easily crowd out the sad ones you and your grieving family are surely feeling today.

Edited November 23, 2017 by iNow

[Strange]

+1 for the final paragraph (I'm ashamed to say it makes mine look a little flippant)

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, tar said:

It is not important what you think Trump believes about global warming.  It is important what we as Americans, do every day, about it.

We are the same 320 million caring, capable people now, as we were, before the election.

 

 Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards, TAR

The problem is that no one knows what Trump thinks about most issues. It is impossible to find middle ground when wants  and goals are mysterious. Trump campaigned that the govt would pay for healthcare and that everyone would be covered. Once elected he asked Republicans in Congress to figure something out; he didn't have a plan of his own. Congress repeatedly fail to come up with any that didn't raise costs while also causing millions to lose coverage. Trump's position became to just let the whole healthcare system fail and figure something out from there (his actual words). It is currently unclear if subsidies will be paid or which parts of the ACA are on the chopping block. Where is the middle ground; none of us even know what is happening. 

tar, you have been in this thread defending the current push for tax cuts but what can you definitively tell us about it: will it include changes to taxes for 401k's, will it include repeal of mandate for health insurance, will it limit state tax deductions,  will it lower capital gains tax across the board, will it change or illuminate the estate tax,  what will the corporate tax rat be, and as a resident of NJ do you believe you'll be paying more or less overall (local & federal) if passed?? What about Pay-As-You-Go Act (PayGo) will Congress include a waiver for it or allow the automatic cuts to things like medicare kick in? How can you and I find middle ground if neither of us know what is happening? You are complimenting the Presidents achievements based crowd reaction to a speech in China meanwhile Trump hasn't even passed a budget yet! We are still on continuation from Obama's last budget. 

Stop with the "everyone hates on my President" nonsense and start listing some facts and real policy. Start specifically explaining what Trump has done or is in the process of doing. You like how he has handled China, great,explain to me what Trump plans to do about the islands in the South China sea, negotiating a new trans-pacific partnership, labeling China a currency manipulator, and etc. What about NAFTA: is Trump re-negotiating it, pulling out, or is nothing changed? You like how Trump has handle Syria; is Assad an friend now or is it still the position of the U.S. that Assad goes? I bet between you and I there is tremendous middle ground on most issues. The problem is you have chosen to make defending Trump a priority over all else. You defend Trump despite having no clear understand of what his plans are. It is a nonstarter position if middle ground is desired.  

2 hours ago, Strange said:

To some extent you are right. The states and industry will continue to work to combat the problem, despite the president. However, much more could be done if the administration were on their side as well. As it is, the government is likely to try and block some attempts to improve things. They are dishonestly promoting "clean coal" instead of low carbon technologies. They have already attempted to block funding to any research that mentions climate change in the proposal (so scientists have just had to find alternative ways of describing what they are doing). This is dangerously close to censorship, or at least the "newspeak" of 1984.

 

Arguing that what the President thinks doesn't matter and that it all comes down to what people do reads good but doesn't make any sense. Our government is us; we the people. Our government creates and manages the policies/laws that governs our lives. What our representatives think,what their intentions are, are paramount. 

[tar]

Thread,

Thank you for your condolences.  My dad gathered us a few weeks ago and told us he wanted that we should not be sad.  That is not going real well for me but I am trying.  I understand that the world is different now, because we don't have him in it any longer.  Big loss for everybody.  Now you guys only have me to fill his shoes.   Not easy shoes to fill, he was a special guy.

The choice on election day was between Trump and Hilary, not a choice between evil and good.  Hilary had relegated me and 46 million other people into a basket of deplorables.   I am not, and never have been deplorable. I am a solid citizen and will continue to be such.  Trump will never be the dictator you guys fear.  Our country is structured to not allow that.

There are arguments against any action a person or a country can make.  The middle ground is achieved by accepting the arguments of all sides, and governing, by making the hard choices in terms of how to proceed.    Take any argument, and look at both sides, all sides, and see who wins and loses and what people and ideas are served in various combinations of actions.  There is NEVER a right and wrong way to go.  This is what is so stupid about all dems voting one way and all repubs voting the other.  There is no possible way that it could just so happen that an action is 100% wonderful to people wearing red shoes and 100% evil to people wearing blue shoes.

Raising the min wage would cause fast food places to automate.

Disallowing the burning of coal would leave coal miners out of work, and shift heavy manufacturing, were high heat smelting and such are required, to other countries.  And the silly thing is, we then would ship our coal to the other countries and the Earth would suffer the burning any way.

Making pot smoking legal in NJ would frustrate the education campaign we are waging in NJ to have young minds find natural highs, and would confuse young people as to what the law is considering that pot is a controlled substance on the Federal level.  That is, using pot would be legal in NJ and you could get fired from your corporate job.

It is never a black and white, yes and no, extreme position wins situation.   It is our duty as intelligent folk.  The top 10 percent of people in terms of intelligence and capability, to find the middle ground, and to on purpose pull ourselves away from the easy feel good argument.   

If governing were not hard, anybody could do it.  I had a strong feeling that Hilary, who was proud to be enemy of the Republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians, would have a hard time being my president.  So, together with the possibility that her carelessness gave up state secrets to foreign adversaries, and a general feeling that she did not have the weight to stand up against Putin, and Assad and Iran and North Korea and a hundred other indications I had, that Trump was a better negotiator and a stronger, more capable leader, I pulled the lever for Trump.

North Korea did not start being a problem when Trump was elected.  They were already an enemy.  We have been at war since I was young.  All the missiles and bombs and artillery pieces, computer hacking capability, nerve agents and all the other ways the regime has devised to kill the horrible Americans was already in place.  Other presidents made mistakes and kicked the can down the road.  Trump has met the threat and sees the best way to adjust the attitude of North Korea is to have China do it.  So he negotiates with China.

Regards, TAR

just thought of a for instance

Let's say dems put in place a law that says sexual abusers can not own weapons, at the same time they make a law that says touching a woman's butt constitutes sexual abuse. 

That would mean no one would be allowed to own a weapon, as most everyone has touched a woman's butt.

 

what makes the middle ground desirable to look for, is that I am fine with both gun ownership, and touching women's butts and there have been women that have not objected, in fact appreciated the touch, and many folks own guns and never robbed a bank or murdered anyone

in fact, we should be concerned about taking control out of individual's hands and giving it to the government

If everybody owned a gun, there is no way Trump or Hilary, could become dictator, for instance.

And if we disallowed touching each other's butts, we might address the overpopulation issue, but we would not have near as much fun living.

Edited November 23, 2017 by tar

[swansont]

20 hours ago, rangerx said:

I will. Trump was calling for China to branded as a currency manipulator. That makes him a liar.

That follows a pattern: he talks big when surrounded by supporters, but folds when the rubber meets the road. It happened with his visit to Mexico during the campaign, too. The subject of paying for the wall allegedly never came u,m according to Trump. Nieto says it did, and that he reiterated the Mexico wouldn't pay.

All hat and no cattle.

[dimreepr]

24 minutes ago, tar said:

just thought of a for instance

Let's say dems put in place a law that says sexual abusers can not own weapons, at the same time they make a law that says touching a woman's butt constitutes sexual abuse.

1

Really, so touching your wife's arse is sexual abuse? 

34 minutes ago, tar said:

That would mean no one would be allowed to own a weapon

Seems reasonable.

[tar]

dimreepr,

That is my point.  Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse.

So the wife is mad I didn't take out the garbage, and she calls the police when I slip my hand down her pants.

There really is sexual abuse.  Redefining what qualifies, does nobody any good.

Regards, TAR

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, tar said:

Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse.

Really? You have resorted to making stuff up now, to support your case. You have certainly learnt a lot from The Donald.

[tar]

and 44 million of us, in the US own guns

and those that own guns want to own them, and don't agree with you that not having them would be better

if you are after middle ground, you have to entertain the desires of these 44 million fellow Americans.

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Really? You have resorted to making stuff up now, to support your case. You have certainly learnt a lot from The Donald.

I read a piece, I know not where, that argued a husband could rape his wife, based on the wife saying it was rape, after the fact.

and this is not fiction

look at all the people coming out of the woodwork, claiming sexual assault and sexual abuse after 40 years

[swansont]

31 minutes ago, tar said:

 The choice on election day was between Trump and Hilary, not a choice between evil and good.  Hilary had relegated me and 46 million other people into a basket of deplorables.  

31.5 million. She said half, and he got ~63 million votes.

31 minutes ago, tar said:

I am not, and never have been deplorable. I am a solid citizen and will continue to be such. 

The thing is, the truly deplorable ones say the same thing. They just want to MAGA. They claim to be patriots. But we can see what their vision of "great again" is by their actions. Their vision is white, straight, and Christian (among other things), none of which is founded on the constitution, and how can one be a solid citizen if one rejects the tenets of the constitution?

 

31 minutes ago, tar said:

 Raising the min wage would cause fast food places to automate.

Your habit of making claims based on no associated evidence whatsoever has gotten tiresome.

31 minutes ago, tar said:

Disallowing the burning of coal would leave coal miners out of work, and shift heavy manufacturing, were high heat smelting and such are required, to other countries.  And the silly thing is, we then would ship our coal to the other countries and the Earth would suffer the burning any way.

Is there a house or senate bill in the works that is proposing to disallow burning coal?

31 minutes ago, tar said:

Making pot smoking legal in NJ would frustrate the education campaign we are waging in NJ to have young minds find natural highs, and would confuse young people as to what the law is considering that pot is a controlled substance on the Federal level.  That is, using pot would be legal in NJ and you could get fired from your corporate job.

Is this happening in places that have legalized recreational pot smoking? (IOW, do you have evidence to back up your assertion?)

31 minutes ago, tar said:

 If governing were not hard, anybody could do it.  I had a strong feeling that Hilary, who was proud to be enemy of the Republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians, would have a hard time being my president.  So, together with the possibility that her carelessness gave up state secrets to foreign adversaries

Evidence? (while we know for a fact that Trump has disclosed classified material to foreign adversaries)

31 minutes ago, tar said:

, and a general feeling that she did not have the weight to stand up against Putin

As opposed to Trump, who has not stood up to Putin.

31 minutes ago, tar said:

, and Assad and Iran and North Korea and a hundred other indications I had, that Trump was a better negotiator and a stronger, more capable leader,

Based, again, on no evidence whatsoever.

31 minutes ago, tar said:

  Let's say dems put in place a law that says sexual abusers can not own weapons, at the same time they make a law that says touching a woman's butt constitutes sexual abuse. 

That would mean no one would be allowed to own a weapon, as most everyone has touched a woman's butt.

What if we passed a law outlawing straw man arguments?

17 minutes ago, tar said:

That is my point.  Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse.

Really? You know this...how?

Marital rape, OTOH, is illegal in all 50 states. Regardless of your political affiliation. (and see how easy it is to back up a factual claim? You should try it sometime.)

[DrP]

14 minutes ago, tar said:

Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse.

I have never heard anyone claim that...  Putting your penis in her vagina if she specifically says no though is rape. The world is so backward that in a progressive country such as the UK it was only made illegal about 20 years ago even. The world has a long way to go as we evolve as a species and get away from thinking that a spouse is property. There are many countries where this is still the case....  they are behind with the times and need to change their views.

1 hour ago, tar said:

Raising the min wage would cause fast food places to automate.

 

You state this as a fact...  I don't think it is - it is just fear mongering to keep the poor poor. Maybe they should just not sleep and work through the night too to pay their way in the world - they obviously need to work harder - it is what they deserve I suppose.   

[tar]

SwansonT,

half?

The point is, a president should not be against her citizens at all.

I heard a democrat official, talking about people that were in town to demonstrate for keeping the statues, like they were so evil as to not be allowed to exist.  

No matter what you or I think about David Duke or a group of students demonstrating for the right to display the confederate battle flag, they are citizens of this country and as long as they do not break any laws or hurt anyone, or interfere with anybody's civil liberties, they are allowed to exist in this country.

A president can not be against his or her population.  She cannot ask them to leave, because they do not measure up to her moral standards.

Regards, TAR

 

[DrP]

Really? What about the murderers, terrorists, rapist,  the KKK and the likes?

2 minutes ago, tar said:

A president can not be against his or her population.  She cannot ask them to leave, because they do not measure up to her moral standards.

No, but they can change the law and make sure that offenders are punished accordingly.

13 minutes ago, swansont said:

Marital rape, OTOH, is illegal in all 50 states. Regardless of your political affiliation. (and see how easy it is to back up a factual claim? You should try it sometime.)

Really?  I did not know...  although not surprised due to the strong Christian domination over your politics...  as I said, it has only been 20 years since we out lawed it here and that was probably due to the European Court of Human rights (which we are about to abandon . ) -  I assumed it was just illegal in the states.   

[tar]

5 minutes ago, DrP said:

I have never heard anyone claim that...  Putting your penis in her vagina if she specifically says no though is rape. The world is so backward that in a progressive country such as the UK it was only made illegal about 20 years ago even. The world has a long way to go as we evolve as a species and get away from thinking that a spouse is property. There are many countries where this is still the case....  they are behind with the times and need to change their views.

You state this as a fact...  I don't think it is - it is just fear mongering to keep the poor poor. Maybe they should just not sleep and work through the night too to pay their way in the world - they obviously need to work harder - it is what they deserve I suppose.   

I saw a soda machine at the food counter at a movie house in Blacksburg, where no interaction with a person was required to by your drink.

The woman on the plane with Trump did not say no.  She sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, not denying his advances.  Then got up and went back to her seat.  I saw the interview with her where she states this.   I think the incident happened, but I don't think it was without her consent.

Middle ground requires that one, in addition to protecting a woman from an abusive spouse, protects a non-abusive spouse from being destroyed by a questionable claim.

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Really? What about the murderers, terrorists, rapist,  the KKK and the likes?

No, but they can change the law and make sure that offenders are punished accordingly.

Really?  I did not know...  although not surprised due to the strong Christian domination over your politics...  as I said, it has only been 20 years since we out lawed it here and that was probably due to the European Court of Human rights (which we are about to abandon . ) -  I assumed it was just illegal in the states.   

Sodemy is illegal some places, and was illegal some places where it is no longer.  Since when does the  progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

 

[Strange]

26 minutes ago, tar said:

I read a piece, I know not where, that argued a husband could rape his wife, based on the wife saying it was rape, after the fact.

I don’t know what you mean to imply by that “after the fact” but it is certainly true that, in the UK at least, it is a criminal offence for a man to rape his wife. Quite rightly, too. I would hope the same is true in the USA  

This has nothing to do with “Dems” or touching bottoms. This level of dihonesty is perhaps not surprising from a Trump supporter.