Louis C.K. "allegations"

[Silvestru]

Hello forum,

I am a big comedy fan and wanted to get your opinion on this case. I see Louie lumped up together with Weinstein and Spacey and I think that's not fair.

What he did is highly inappropriate (I won't break down the news here) but he did not hurt or assault anyone.

Thoughts?

[koti]

I'm a fan of Luie C.K standup too. The biting ponies routine or his marihuana routine are for me right at the top of best standup ever made.  I've been following his comedy since the beginning, I know facts from his personal life that he gave out in his various routines, shows and interviews - he has 2 daughters and shares custody over them with his ex wife. He is a very good Father spending a lot of time with them, they're the most important part of his life. 
As for the allegations, frankly I don't know what to think...as far as I know he admitted that he did what he is being accused of - masturbated in front of various women. Is it worth condemning? Obviously yes, you'd really have to be deranged to think otherwise. Does it justify destroying his life and carrier? Definitely not, and I think the fact that his professional life is over before court hearings is more deranged than the fact that he masturbated in front of women.
Luie C.K aside, I sincerely hope that someday a law will be implemented enforcing say 10 years in prison without the option for parole or the option to appeal for false sexual related accusations. It would not hurt the real victims and it would surely lower the amount of filed cases that are bogus.

When I was 16, a new guy came to our class in highschool. We kinda hooked up with skateboarding, spent some time skating and he proposed to grab something to eat at his and his Moms place nearby. It was just the 2 of us, his Mom was on her way back from work. To my extreme surprise, he put on a VHS with a porn movie, moved to a chair in the back and started masturbating with me sitting right there on the couch. I waited till its over while biting my nails. He went to the bathroom, washed his hands like it never happened. His Mom came back, gave us dinner....later I told him that this is definitely not my thing and that I will not accept this in the future. He said he was very sorry and genuinely didn't realize that it could have been a traumatic experience for me (later that year his extremely attractive Mom made delicate passes at me) We never spoke of this again and were buddies for a few years. I’d have to be a complete dick to make a fuss out of this not to mention legal actions. He was straight btw, or maybe bi-sexual. Anyway he's living with his wife and 2 almost adult sons now, spoke to him few years back at some random event, he seemed to be leading a happy life which I could have easily destroyed.
The question is...who is more of a dick, the guy who jacks off in front of somebody or the one who destroys his life over it?

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[Silvestru]

The problem is that he is being lumped with the two people mentioned above. Of course this is degenerate behavior but these women were free to leave at any moment plus he asked for permission before the act. (understandably they thought is was a joke)
But still they could just leave.
Another "victim" is a news reporter that declared she could hear him pleasuring himself on the other line. Here's an idea ... hang up. 

The issue I have is that there are plenty of degenerate comedians, Doug Stanhope for example who describes waaaaaay worse things that he did and they get no dirt for it.
 

[swansont]

22 minutes ago, koti said:

 Luie C.K aside, I sincerely hope that someday a law will be implemented enforcing say 10 years in prison without the option for parole or the option to appeal for false sexual related accusations. It would not hurt the real victims and it would surely lower the amount of filed cases that are bogus.

Filing a false police report is already illegal, and false claims of sexual misconduct happen at about the same rate as other false criminal complaints, considering that most rapes go unreported. If you're talking about public allegations, then you have libel/slander laws.

30 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

The problem is that he is being lumped with the two people mentioned above. Of course this is degenerate behavior but these women were free to leave at any moment plus he asked for permission before the act. (understandably they thought is was a joke)
But still they could just leave.
 

He was blocking the door.

[koti]

26 minutes ago, swansont said:

Filing a false police report is already illegal, and false claims of sexual misconduct happen at about the same rate as other false criminal complaints, considering that most rapes go unreported. If you're talking about public allegations, then you have libel/slander laws.

What is the penalty in the US for filing a false sexual related accusation? I presume its more or less like here. Here it’s basically nothing...my ex wife filled a report few years back which ended up at the attorney general stating that I sexually mollested our 5 year old daughter including a 2 hour video interrogation of our kid in which she was attempting to get a testimony out of her through repeating the same questions dozens of times over and over again. All of this was within a child custody case, the allegations were eventually dropped as the attorney general realized after months of interrogating me and my family that it’s a game directed by the mother at me to alienate me from our children, and my children from me (I havent seen my daughter in almost 2 years btw) She suffered zero consequences for her actions.

What I’m saying is, if you can so easly destroy somebodies whole life with false sexual accusations, make the consequences of making those false accusations equally sufferable. 10 years without parol and without appeal would be enough of an incentive to think twice about falsely accusing someone and it wouldn’t hurt the real victims in any way.

And if you think that my story is a cherry pick, you're wrong.

48 minutes ago, swansont said:

He was blocking the door.

That does change everything significantly. If it's true that is.

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[Prometheus]

The maximum sentence is 7 years isn't it - quite close to your demand. No appeals? That's kind of a cornerstone of free societies: i wouldn't want a ban on appeals for any crime.

If you're not cherry picking provide data. For instance a CPS study concluded that 'it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace', would seem to suggest otherwise. 

Why the talk of false accusations anyway? I thought the guy admitted all charges. If so then the courts will sentence him accordingly. If it affects his job the courts usually take that into account during sentencing. And if your job depends on popularity, don't do unpopular things.

[koti]

20 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

The maximum sentence is 7 years isn't it - quite close to your demand. No appeals? That's kind of a cornerstone of free societies: i wouldn't want a ban on appeals for any crime.

If you're not cherry picking provide data. For instance a CPS study concluded that 'it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace', would seem to suggest otherwise. 

Why the talk of false accusations anyway? I thought the guy admitted all charges. If so then the courts will sentence him accordingly. If it affects his job the courts usually take that into account during sentencing. And if your job depen

I’d have to agree with you as to the no appeal. 7 years sounds reasonable, I wonder though, how many false sexual accusations ended up with that sentence?

I might be wrong but I don’t think he admitted to blocking the door?

As for the data you ask, I can provide data from Poland from the last ~10 years or so, its all in Polish unfortunatley. I do not have data of what it looks like in the US or the rest of Europe, common sense would suggest that its more or less the same in all those places. As for my personal experience from the 7 years, 6 attorneys I’ve had, houndreds of hours of interrogations by the police, prosecutors, and dozens of court hearings I can tell you that nearly every child custody case in Poland where there is conflict between the parties ends up at some point in some kind of sexual accusations by the mother towards the father. Its a standard procedure used by the lawyers as it is the easiest and most effective way of quickly winning a child custody case. I’m derailing this thread with this though, please feel free not to continue this motif. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[hypervalent_iodine]

What on Earth does sentencing of false sexual assault allegations have to do with this topic? He explicitly admitted that he exploited his power over these women, and that everything they said was true. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, koti said:

What is the penalty in the US for filing a false sexual related accusation? I presume its more or less like here. Here it’s basically nothing...my ex wife filled a report few years back which ended up at the attorney general stating that I sexually mollested our 5 year old daughter including a 2 hour video interrogation of our kid in which she was attempting to get a testimony out of her through repeating the same questions dozens of times over and over again. All of this was within a child custody case, the allegations were eventually dropped as the attorney general realized after months of interrogating me and my family that it’s a game directed by the mother at me to alienate me from our children, and my children from me (I havent seen my daughter in almost 2 years btw) She suffered zero consequences for her actions.

What I’m saying is, if you can so easly destroy somebodies whole life with false sexual accusations, make the consequences of making those false accusations equally sufferable. 10 years without parol and without appeal would be enough of an incentive to think twice about falsely accusing someone and it wouldn’t hurt the real victims in any way.

And if you think that my story is a cherry pick, you're wrong.

Never said it was cherry picking.

A false accusation of murder can ruin one's life, too. Or any other felony. Plenty of people get wrongfully convicted. Some are later exonerated, with no consequences to those who erred.

The thing is, long prison sentences aren't much of a deterrent (nor is the death penalty), even though some people like to claim they would be. One thing that deters crime is the likelihood of being caught.

[iNow]

5 hours ago, Silvestru said:

he did not hurt or assault anyone.

Wrong on both fronts

[Silvestru]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

Wrong on both fronts

Ok can you please show me where anyone was hurt? Some source? He is charged with sexual misconduct not assault. please do not confuse these two terms.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Silvestru said:

Ok can you please show me where anyone was hurt? Some source? He is charged with sexual misconduct not assault. please do not confuse these two terms.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking some physical pain has to be manifested in order to hurt someone.

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/matthew-weiner-louis-ck-harassment-victims-1201895994/

These women were pressured professionally to keep their mouths shut. Their lives were reduced because of the actions of this man. 

[iNow]

 

2 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Ok can you please show me where anyone was hurt? Some source? He is charged with sexual misconduct not assault. please do not confuse these two terms.

Like you, I've long been a fan of CK. That said, my appreciation and enjoyment of the work he's done in no way changes the facts here.

He's openly acknowledged his actions and those actions clearly caused harm to the people affected. I'd like to remind you that it doesn't have to be a stab wound or choke marks around the throat for legal harm to be inflicted. You are, quite simply, mistaken. Likewise, it doesn't need to be forced penetration to be assault. Even CK's former manager describes what happened as assault, so to be frank YOU seem to be the one confusing terms here.

I say this all while empathizing with you when it comes to enjoying his work and wanting people to be treated fairly. I just tend to err on the side of fairly treating the women in these cases since that seems to be what's been missing culturally.

[Phi for All]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

I just tend to err on the side of fairly treating the women in these cases since that seems to be what's been missing culturally.

I can't stress the importance of this enough. As men who's intent in daily professional relationships has been innocent and untainted by sexual aggression, we tend to hope other men behave the same, and err on their side far too often. We want the suspected creep to be innocent because we are, and we don't want men to be creepy.

Whether the power brings out the creep, or the creep seeks the powerful position from which to be creepy, these types are often in positions they shouldn't have.

The creeps show more respect to men, obviously, which can make other men trust them disproportionately. 

I recommend every man have a sit-down talk with the women closest to them. Ask them about this. You're going to be disgusted, and you're going to be enlightened.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I recommend every man have a sit-down talk with the women closest to them. Ask them about this. You're going to be disgusted, and you're going to be enlightened

One of the eye-opening events in my younger years was when I was hanging out with my then girlfriend together with another couple. We were having a walk and I was busy chatting with a friend, while our GFs where walking ahead and chatting with each other. The amount of cat-calls and unsolicited advances was unreal. Sure, it was a Friday evening crowd with lots of young folks, but I did not expect that they would have to fight off people with sticks. The sad thing is that they mentioned something like that at one point, but me being young and  dumb thought she was just exaggerating. Sadly these things continued happening in professional settings, especially in situations when folks think that ordinary rules do not apply (e.g. conferences).  

[Silvestru]

16 hours ago, iNow said:

Like you, I've long been a fan of CK. That said, my appreciation and enjoyment of the work he's done in no way changes the facts here.

He's openly acknowledged his actions and those actions clearly caused harm to the people affected. I'd like to remind you that it doesn't have to be a stab wound or choke marks around the throat for legal harm to be inflicted. You are, quite simply, mistaken. Likewise, it doesn't need to be forced penetration to be assault. Even CK's former manager describes what happened as assault, so to be frank YOU seem to be the one confusing terms here.

I say this all while empathizing with you when it comes to enjoying his work and wanting people to be treated fairly. I just tend to err on the side of fairly treating the women in these cases since that seems to be what's been missing culturally.

Maybe I was in denial about this. And you guys are totally right. I still don't think that he should be put in the same bucket as the other two mentioned above but yeah.... my approach was very subjective. I took a moment and thought how I would react if this would be someone else who I do not care about in this situation and it would be very different.

If any good can be taken from these recent scandals is that Female Directors, Actors, Comedians etc will hopefully get a huge (well deserved) boost in trust and confidence and this scene will see a more female presence.

I just realized that you can see the 5 stages of my grief in this thread hahaha. (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance)

[Prometheus]

Don't know who this comedian is, but his actions shouldn't spoil your enjoyment of his work.

Wagner has made some of the most powerful and beautiful music known to man -being a nazi sympathiser doesn't change that.

[geordief]

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

 

I recommend every man have a sit-down talk with the women closest to them. Ask them about this. You're going to be disgusted, and you're going to be enlightened.

Anecdotally I was told a story where two young women on holiday were joined in public at a bench  by a man who proceeded to wank  himself.

 

How serious a crime/(misdemeanour?)  would that  be considered to be ? Worse or better for the fact that it occurred in public?

 

 

[MigL]

I realize I'm making light of these troubling situations, but, wouldn't you lose your erection when the two young women started laughing at you ?

[geordief]

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

I realize I'm making light of these troubling situations, but, wouldn't you lose your erection when the two young women started laughing at you ?

I will have to find out about that.

I was only given the bare details

I doubt he was confronted.

 

[Silvestru]

6 hours ago, MigL said:

I realize I'm making light of these troubling situations, but, wouldn't you lose your erection when the two young women started laughing at you ?

Normal people would. But some people actually have that fetish . Comedian Jim Norton talked about this in regards to the Louis C.K. story. Check it out.