60,000 Nazis Marched in Poland this weekend

[Phi for All]

 

17 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

It could all be random events, but doesn't feel like it. It feels like money probing for weaknesses in people who might oppose the status quo.

The wealth disparity really skews the picture, doesn't it? You're being judged by a system that values bank accounts over integrity. Thanks for having higher values, thanks for focusing on more than just yourself, and thanks for speaking up about it.

I often wonder what would happen if we took most of the money we spend defending ourselves from our fellow humans and spent it instead on fixing the reasons why they might attack us in the first place. This seems to be the exact opposite of this extremist trend, however. 

[iNow]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

What do you think of this trend? Are there sufficient nonviolent means to stop it? Will it take force and will things to continue to get worse before getting better?

Since it's subpopulations and subgroups involved, and no nation states as a whole, I'm not even sure what force would look like. The passion is on the side of the extremists. They're the most energized. Is the only way to put this in check to show similar passion and energization on the side of secular values?

[EdEarl]

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

 

The wealth disparity really skews the picture, doesn't it? You're being judged by a system that values bank accounts over integrity. Thanks for having higher values, thanks for focusing on more than just yourself, and thanks for speaking up about it.

I often wonder what would happen if we took most of the money we spend defending ourselves from our fellow humans and spent it instead on fixing the reasons why they might attack us in the first place. This seems to be the exact opposite of this extremist trend, however. 

I wonder what effect the internet of things, flexible electronics, automation, and cameras by the roll disguised as kids stickers will do to privacy. If we have no privacy, paranoia should decrease, I think. If someone who is paranoid can use a bot to investigate anyone coming near the paranoid person, then most will be behaving normally and not be feared. 

Real costs are falling, and in the limit, automated corporations can produce at near zero cost. If people are supplied with necessities, then the reason to make money should vanish. The path from here to there appears bumpy.

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, koti said:

On a side note...are you going to state where this is going or are you just trying to entertain my inner-peace experience once again ?

2

Oh FFS when are you going to stop sniping?  Grow up.

16 minutes ago, koti said:

Oh and don't worry dimreepr, there's very little chance I'll be emigrating to the UK (you have shitty faucets in the UK) so you can sleep calmly.

I've worked with many of your countrymen and deeply admire my Polish brethren for there work ethic, but they were adults.

[Phi for All]

13 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Real costs are falling, and in the limit, automated corporations can produce at near zero cost. If people are supplied with necessities, then the reason to make money should vanish. The path from here to there appears bumpy.

What would you do if you had billions of dollars, and people started talking about not really needing money anymore?

[iNow]

45 minutes ago, koti said:

On a side note...are you going to state where this is going or are you just trying to entertain my inner-peace experience once again ?
Oh and don't worry dimreepr, there's very little chance I'll be emigrating to the UK (you have shitty faucets in the UK) so you can sleep calmly.

 

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Oh FFS when are you going to stop sniping?  Grow up.

I've worked with many of your countrymen and deeply admire my Polish brethren for there work ethic, but they were adults.

Humble request. Just stop. Both. Don't care who started it, only who ends it. Not here. Not this thread, and thanks.

7 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

What would you do if you had billions of dollars, and people started talking about not really needing money anymore?

I'd focus on the actual thread topic. 

[koti]

28 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Oh FFS when are you going to stop sniping?  Grow up.

I've worked with many of your countrymen and deeply admire my Polish brethren for there work ethic, but they were adults.

You like quotes and one liners don’t you:

„The most sophisticated people I know - inside they are all children” Jim Henson.

14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

What would you do if you had billions of dollars, and people started talking about not really needing money anymore?

It’s a utopian, non realistic possibility but I presume there’s a good chance that the billionaire would find a way to get on top of things in the new reality rendering the new reality not so new.

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Humble request. Just stop. Both. Don't care who started it, only who ends it. Not here. Not this thread, and thanks.

 

Sorry.

[EdEarl]

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

What would you do if you had billions of dollars, and people started talking about not really needing money anymore?

I grew up on the other side of the railroad. I cannot imagine a million, much less a billion dollars. I suppose it would make me feel insecure.

[koti]

26 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

Humble request. Just stop. Both. Don't care who started it, only who ends it. Not here. Not this thread, and thanks.

Have you been to the UK and seen their faucets?

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, koti said:

Have you been to the UK and seen their faucets?

Is 'faucets' foreign for taps? I didn't know we had a particular style.

Edited November 14, 2017 by StringJunky

[koti]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is 'faucets' foreign for taps? I didn't know we had a particular style.

Seperate taps for cold and hot water situated as far from each other as possible.

(Sory iNow, I’m done)

[tuco]

Honestly, the xenophobia rising/present in Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Czechia (no idea about other countries from the former Soviet bloc) is a mystery to me. In comparison to the Netherlands, Germany, France or Sweden to name a few. I mean it's not a complete mystery, given certain historical context, but its irrational for sure. 

btw its my understanding that Polish people are proud people, with regards to history. Proud in positive connotations. Though as it seems the line between being proud and being, how to say this, a militant nationalist is thin. 

 

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edit: useless trivia

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by tuco

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It would probably be  better to say '60,000 nationalists'.

You could add white nationalist. Several of the banners (including those used by the organizers) had calls for "pure blood" and a "white Europe", which is incredibly ironic given the history with Nazi Germany. The populist right in Europe is using a weird form of racist revisionist history, paradoxically invoking a common white European identity (try that a few decades back). The current enemy, of course being mostly Muslims, dark-skinned folks in general and, traditionally perhaps, Jews. It appears that sometimes history does indeed repeat itself.  Another common theme is that racism is most openly expressed in areas with incredibly low amount of visible folks with foreign background (e.g. East Germany or Poland). 

Also this trend is clearly not about poverty alone. In many elections there wasn't a strong association between income and election of right-populists (though they tend to be very strong with the lower middle-class). However, there is a stronger correlation with ressentiment to other groups of people. I.e. people seem more concerned regarding foreigners mooching off rather than policies that may affect their direct financial well-being. But again, this is an ancient populist tactic that has been adapted to the modern world.

 

Edit: A Polish friend of mine commented by saying that apparently the years of freedom did not agree with the Polish people and they are taking steps to remedy that (he emigrated from Poland quite a while ago, though).

Edited November 14, 2017 by CharonY

[iNow]

Quotes from Mark Twain seems relevant here:

24 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It appears that sometimes history does indeed repeat itself.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."

And also here:

24 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Another common theme is that racism is most openly expressed in areas with incredibly low amount of visible folks with foreign background

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

 

The challenge here gets magnified IMO by the internet itself. It was a technology promising to elevate us each beyond our tribal tendencies and small town closed mindedness and instead to take us far beyond our little individual corners of the earth, but instead (as we've seen time and time again) it serves more often to further entrench and align us with the like minded and close us off from the different views and perspectives so critical to a healthy society and functioning democracy.

...but now I'm getting off topic...  

How do we push back on this effectively?

Edited November 14, 2017 by iNow

[tuco]

Education

among others like: practicing principles of open society, getting interested and involved in own affairs -  politikos, or generally not being assholes. All this requires time and energy so perhaps the so-called industry 4.0 will allow for it. Oh wait, I've been watching too much Star Trek again!

[koti]

I can add that besides what CharonY wrote there is another theme behind the current far right in Poland - The „cleansing” of the post communist/socialist remains. They are horribly abuisng this theme to play their game - settig up their people in courts, companies, etc. They abused it to a point in which Lech Wałęsa is basically declared a national traitor by the current government. You read that right, the guy who lead „Solidarity” and got the peace Noble prize is now considered a traitor by a vast amount of Poles (especially the younger generation) CharonY, your Polish friend said it like it is.

Edit: Tuco, who would have thought that theres reasoning behing the ridiculous faucets/taps in the UK  

As for racism in Poland its aparent like never before. I’d say its not even pure racism (yet) since Poland doesnt have that many minorities compared to other European countries, its more of a xenophobia on steroids fueled mostly by the Church.

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[CharonY]

5 minutes ago, koti said:

You read that right, the guy who lead „Solidarity” and got the peace Noble prize is now considered a traitor by a vast amount of Poles (especially the younger generation)

That is immensely disappointing. When I was in Poland with my class it was imparted to us how important Solidarność was to enact social change. Yet to the younger generation this seems to be lost entirely. As well as much of modern history, which is true also for Germany.

[koti]

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is immensely disappointing. When I was in Poland with my class it was imparted to us how important Solidarność was to enact social change. Yet to the younger generation this seems to be lost entirely. As well as much of modern history, which is true also for Germany.

Somebody smart once said to me that „History is the most falsified area of research there is”  (I think it was my Grandfather)

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[CharonY]

51 minutes ago, iNow said:

How do we push back on this effectively?

There are two ways to look at it. The optimistic view is that this the growing pain of an increasing international community. By being afraid of the new, the boundary what is considered to be foreign is pushed further and further outward. For example, in former times the ethnic and nationalist boundaries between European nations was much tighter. Yet now, even nationalist call for a European (albeit white) identity. Eventually, one could argue that this tight definition of nationalist identity simply becomes obsolete and delegated to a fringe that will become insignificant by virtue of self-isolation.

The pessimistic view is that these movements are just the manifestation of an existing undercurrent that has always existed and will always exist. Their powers will come and go in rhythm with perceived crises. And with the advent of fake news, some actively try to create perpetual crises to solidify these movements.

2 minutes ago, koti said:

Somebody smart once said to me that „History is the most falsified area of research there is”  (I think it was my Grandfather)

Half agree, half disagree with the sentiment. I think it is more accurate to state the research is heavily abused (though some researchers are not quite impartial).

[StringJunky]

You could say the nationalists dominate here in the UK by winning the vote for Brexit.

[koti]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

There are two ways to look at it. The optimistic view is that this the growing pain of an increasing international community. By being afraid of the new, the boundary what is considered to be foreign is pushed further and further outward. For example, in former times the ethnic and nationalist boundaries between European nations was much tighter. Yet now, even nationalist call for a European (albeit white) identity. Eventually, one could argue that this tight definition of nationalist identity simply becomes obsolete and delegated to a fringe that will become insignificant by virtue of self-isolation.

The pessimistic view is that these movements are just the manifestation of an existing undercurrent that has always existed and will always exist. Their powers will come and go in rhythm with perceived crises. And with the advent of fake news, some actively try to create perpetual crises to solidify these movements.

Well said. I wish I could lean towards the first option.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Quotes from Mark Twain

And also here:

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

Twain is very right. I can add to this quote that stagnation leads to lack of will and a defensive position to travel or explore anything. If you want to know the scale of this in Poland, think deep American south.

[MigL]

Poland, as a country, has had its borders re-drawn by neighboring countries many times, and has at times totally disappeared ( Prussians and Russians ).
They have lived through a century of suffering, also at the hands of neighboring countries.
It is this historical 'memory' which gives them the right to be suspicious of 'foreigners'.

That being said, I live in what used to be a mostly ethnic neighborhood ( Polish and Italian ), my next door neighbor is Polish, as are numerous others on the street.
None are racist, rather, some of the best people I know.
The only difference is that they've had exposure to a wider world.

I hold out a similar hope for the people of Poland. Once their economy and tourism are more integrated with the rest of Europe, once there is a wider exposure of its people to Western European thinking and ideals, once they get over the memories of history, they too will change.
The pendulum has simply swung too far, and will correct itself.

 

[koti]

We’re already integrated with the rest of Europe, tourism and the economy was thriving (at least up untill now) The thing is that we’re taking a huge 30 year step back right now for the past 2 years with the assholes at the helm.

[tuco]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

There are two ways to look at it. The optimistic view is that this the growing pain of an increasing international community. By being afraid of the new, the boundary what is considered to be foreign is pushed further and further outward. For example, in former times the ethnic and nationalist boundaries between European nations was much tighter. Yet now, even nationalist call for a European (albeit white) identity. Eventually, one could argue that this tight definition of nationalist identity simply becomes obsolete and delegated to a fringe that will become insignificant by virtue of self-isolation.

The pessimistic view is that these movements are just the manifestation of an existing undercurrent that has always existed and will always exist. Their powers will come and go in rhythm with perceived crises. And with the advent of fake news, some actively try to create perpetual crises to solidify these movements.

Half agree, half disagree with the sentiment. I think it is more accurate to state the research is heavily abused (though some researchers are not quite impartial).

Nicely said. 

The cooperative competition enabled by the four freedom flows (labour, goods, services, and capital) of the EU (not commenting on the rest of the world because of ignorance and complexity) indeed pushes boundaries of what is foreign and what is national. At the same time it seems, at least seems to me, it allows for or even brings to attention similar questions asked in theses about nationalism. I would think that being afraid of different or being protective of peers, for example, is inevitable. On the other hand, it's important to realize that the cooperative part of competing yielded the results we are observing in the 21st century. To say that nationalist identity (subject to own topic and definitions) is to become obsolete is almost like to say that different languages will become obsolete. 

Personally, as noted, I am optimistic when it comes to need to be unique diverse individually or locally while belonging together being united in an institution or globally. There surely are frictions as the processes are dynamic and quite rapid, but what is a rational alternative? Then again, only time will tell. 

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edit: In varietate concordia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union

Edited November 14, 2017 by tuco