60,000 Nazis Marched in Poland this weekend

[MigL]

The 'assholes at the helm' are voted in by the people.

Italy faced a similar situation after WW2.
They had lived under Fascism for two decades, and when the war ended, and they had a choice again, they didn't just steer back to the center, but went a full 180 deg. towards Communism.
It was only American intervention and economic support that steered them back towards a centrist democracy.

I think Poland and a few of her Eastern European neighbors are doing the same, but in the opposing direction.
I have faith in the Polish people, that the oscillations about the center won't diverge.

Edited November 14, 2017 by MigL

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

The 'assholes at the helm' are voted in by the people.

Not always. Sometimes there’s a ridiculous, archaic, and long-due for replacement system like the electoral college that overrules the will of 3 million+ voters. 

[CharonY]

It is especially sad considering how much Western Europe was against Polish integration into the EU for fears of them taking all the jobs and bringing all the crime (well, mostly car thefts). Even now Polish folks (if revealed to be as such by name or accent) face discrimination in many Western European countries.

2 hours ago, MigL said:

It is this historical 'memory' which gives them the right to be suspicious of 'foreigners'.

That is to a large degree inaccurate. What it lead to was a sense of nationalism. However, how that has manifested throughout polish history has been very multifaceted and was not always inward-looking. The best example is the romantic Polish nationalism of the the 19th century as  represented by Mickiewicz or Chopin. This form was more framed by idealism rather than borders or ethinicity. And while politically ineffectual, it had a profound impact on Polish identity. In modern times there is a deep rift in the perception of post-WWII events, which is fueled by by feeling wronged by the communists, but also the Western world. PiS managed to ride the wave of resentment to create an exclusive form of nationalism with heavy revisionists aspects. On top, they masterfully integrated the church as an umbrella for the dissatisfied and, ironically, sprinkled the whole thing with elements of the communist and fascist regime that controlled Poland. The blood and soil rhetoric was, to my knowledge never a cornerstone of Polish nationalism. Rather, it was used as justification for the Nazis for ethnic cleansing in Poland. To embrace this is... well, depressing.

Edited November 14, 2017 by CharonY

[koti]

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

The 'assholes at the helm' are voted in by the people.

Italy faced a similar situation after WW2.
They had lived under Fascism for two decades, and when the war ended, and they had a choice again, they didn't just steer back to the center, but went a full 180 deg. to Communism.
It was only American intervention and economic support that steered them back towards a centrist democracy.

I think Poland and a few of her Eastern European neighbors are doing the same, but in the opposing direction.
I have faith in the Polish people, that the oscillations about the center won't diverge.

Thats insightful, thanks...I hope that your faith is not misplaced. It doesn’t look good at the moment, the current government is alienating virtually everyone and waiving it’s wooden sword screaming „look how strong we are” They’re showing the middle finger to the EU and NATO. If we manage to dodge Putin who I bet is looking and drooling at whats going on in Poland, maybe we have a chance.

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is especially sad considering how much Western Europe was against Polish integration into the EU for fears of them taking all the jobs and bringing all the crime (well, mostly car thefts). Even now Polish folks (if revealed to be as such by name or accent) face discrimination in many Western European countries.

That is to a large degree inaccurate. What it lead to was a sense of nationalism. However, how that has manifested throughout polish history has been very multifaceted and was not always inward-looking). The best example is the romantic Polish nationalism of the the 19th century as  represented by Mickiewicz or Chopin. This form was more framed by idealism rather than borders. And while politically ineffectual, it had a profound impact on Polish identity. In modern times there is a deep rift in the perception of post-WWII events, which is fueled by by feeling wronged by the communists, but also the Western world. PiS managed to ride the wave of resentment to create an exclusive form of nationalism with heavy revisionists aspects. On top, they masterfully integrated the church as an umbrella for the dissatisfied and, ironically, sprinkled the whole thing with elements of the communist and fascist regime that controlled Poland. The blood and soil rhetoric was, to my knowledge never a cornerstone of Polish nationalism. Rather, it was used as justification for the Nazis for ethnic cleansing in Poland. To embrace this is... well, depressing.

I’m impressed by your knowledge about Poland and eastern block history, you sure you’re a biologist?

As for the car/radio theft motif, as sad as it is - its true. When I was in my late teens I knew local bad boys from the poorer families, they regularly travelled to Germany, Switzerland to steal car radios and cars. One of them got caught in Switzerland and got sentenced to 1 year in a Swiss prison. Came back a year later and said that Swiss prison was the best vacation and best time of his life.

Edit: There was a joke going around at that time that Germans go for vacation to Poland because their cars are already there.

Edited November 14, 2017 by koti

[waitforufo]

19 minutes ago, iNow said:

Not always. Sometimes there’s a ridiculous, archaic, and long-due for replacement system like the electoral college that overrules the will of 3 million+ voters. 

You will get over it one day.

[koti]

21 minutes ago, iNow said:

Not always. Sometimes there’s a ridiculous, archaic, and long-due for replacement system like the electoral college that overrules the will of 3 million+ voters. 

That is ridiculous isn’t it. I was shocked when I learned this when the elections took place.

[waitforufo]

5 minutes ago, koti said:

That is ridiculous isn’t it. I was shocked when I learned this when the elections took place.

Why were you shocked that the United States follows it's constitution?  Presidents of the United States are elected by the States which is as it should be.

[koti]

8 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Why were you shocked that the United States follows it's constitution?  Presidents of the United States are elected by the States which is as it should be.

Political views aside, I was shocked to learn that the US has an electoral system which makes it possible for a candidate who received 3mln votes less than his oponenent to win and become president. I admit that I don’t know the details of how this system exactly works but 3mln votes less —> Win is controversial nevertheless.

[iNow]

I knew we’d have at least one who couldn’t resist flinging feces at that comment. Please don’t rise to the bait. It’s off-topic, and entirely my fault for mentioning it.

[koti]

34 minutes ago, iNow said:

I knew we’d have at least one who couldn’t resist flinging feces at that comment. Please don’t rise to the bait. It’s off-topic, and entirely my fault for mentioning it.

I'm not taking that bait, no worries iNow.

[waitforufo]

58 minutes ago, iNow said:

I knew we’d have at least one who couldn’t resist flinging feces at that comment. Please don’t rise to the bait. It’s off-topic, and entirely my fault for mentioning it.

Well you put that off-topic comment out there expecting a reply.  Like I said, one day you will get over it.    

[iNow]

Speaking of getting over things, this increased prominence of white nationalism and use of social divisions and hate to drive specific ideologies is troubling.

We’ve seen seen this movie before. What can we do to script a different ending this time? How can we make the sequel better than the original motion picture?

[Outrider]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Please don’t rise to the bait. It’s off-topic, and entirely my fault for mentioning it.

Kudos for owning your mistake.

Here is a thread for those who wish to discuss the electoral college and possible alternatives. 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/111658-electoral-college-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/

 

[waitforufo]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Not always. Sometimes there’s a ridiculous, archaic, and long-due for replacement system like the electoral college that overrules the will of 3 million+ voters. 

Here is your off topic comment.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

I knew we’d have at least one who couldn’t resist flinging feces at that comment. Please don’t rise to the bait. It’s off-topic, and entirely my fault for mentioning it.

Here you are admitting that you made an off topic comment intended only to bait out a reply.  So you got one like you hoped.  I rather mild one too.  By the way I do believe that one day you will get over it.  Is there no making you happy.  You got what you wanted.  Still you are crying.

30 minutes ago, iNow said:

Speaking of getting over things, this increased prominence of white nationalism and use of social divisions and hate to drive specific ideologies is troubling.

We’ve seen seen this movie before. What can we do to script a different ending this time? How can we make the sequel better than the original motion picture?

Now you are trying to bait me out on white nationalism.  Well you know my historically referenced opinion on who is responsible for that in the US. In Poland I think it was the Nazi's.  But hey, if you want to go through all that again I'll play along.  What, did you have a bad day? Does trolling calm you down?  

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Outrider said:

Here is a thread for those who wish to discuss the electoral college and possible alternatives. 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/111658-electoral-college-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/

 

Thx. I posted a comment. Unsure whether it aligns with the direction you wish to take it, so will defer to your guidance over there. 

To the broader group of readers here... In terms of naziism and nationalism, is this just another pendulum readying itself to swing back in the opposing direction, or is this representative of something more lasting?

As some have already mentioned, these seeds have long been sown in dormant soils and never seem to become fully sterile. 

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, iNow said:

The challenge here gets magnified IMO by the internet itself.

 

Indeed, the march of the righteously indignant army.  

12 hours ago, iNow said:

To the broader group of readers here... In terms of naziism and nationalism, is this just another pendulum readying itself to swing back in the opposing direction, or is this representative of something more lasting?

1

It's both.

In that, it will last long enough to create the rhythm of the past before it swings back. All we can hope is we, as a social species, can evolve beyond greed.

[CharonY]

18 hours ago, koti said:

As for the car/radio theft motif, as sad as it is - its true.

Statistics did indicate higher theft rates after opening up to East Europe. However, the initial hysteria from the German right to far right was of course to paint all Eastern Europeans into the same light (untrustworthy thieves and low quality workers) which was frankly disgusting and similar to what we see with regard to anti-Muslim arguments today.

 

I am also not a fan of the pendulum  imagery as it assumes a kind of perpetual middle. However, attitudes shift and what is considered to be a middle ground for folks 50 years ago, is massively different to what we assume to be centre today. As such, I am not sure how useful this model actually is.

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am also not a fan of the pendulum  imagery as it assumes a kind of perpetual middle. However, attitudes shift and what is considered to be a middle ground for folks 50 years ago, is massively different to what we assume to be centre today. As such, I am not sure how useful this model actually is.

I see  it in the sense being relative to any given observer, whatever their political persuasion. The 'middle ground' is always from the perspective of any particular observer... they are in the middle.

[koti]

38 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Statistics did indicate higher theft rates after opening up to East Europe. However, the initial hysteria from the German right to far right was of course to paint all Eastern Europeans into the same light (untrustworthy thieves and low quality workers) which was frankly disgusting and similar to what we see with regard to anti-Muslim arguments today.

 

I agree that extreme hysteria led by generalising was the key factor behind the stance the German right/far right took/takes. The reality significantly changed over last 20 years though, a lot of economical inequalities between Poland and Germany dissolved in that time, they're still there but it's nothing like 20 or 30 years ago. Some factors include Germans having suffered from the Euro currency transition, Poland is still in it's own currency. Anyway...
This should be a sensitive subject for me considering the context of this thread but it's not... Many of my fellow country men would condemn me for not taking a "patriotic" stance but I value my internal integrity far more than my patriotism <--- I think here's your "why" as to why all this is happening in Poland and all over the world, if there were more people sharing my mentality we wouldn't have a problem. As shown by my posts in this thread, I am prepared to admit the reality even when it means sacrificing my patriotic stance. Needless to say, I am also prepared to admit and confirm the reality as to anti-Muslim arguments. We better stay off this in this thread, if you read my posts in religious threads on this forum where I probably lost at least 20 up votes and more importantly a lot of nerves, I might as well stay away from this all together.

Edited November 15, 2017 by koti

[CharonY]

Ultimately, I think people had positive interactions with Czech and Polish people and realized that (most) of their fears were unsubstantiated. This also explains why East Germany (with far less foreigners) is much more xenophobic, similar to as what you described in Poland. This, at least, is what gives me the most hope. If you are going to have interactions with other people it is so much harder to cling to your bigotry. The only way for those far-right groups to maintain this bubble is to exclude them for as long as possible, of course.

[John Cuthber]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:43 PM, StringJunky said:

Nations are made up of disparate groups across a Right-Left spectrum and if the centre-line moves too far one way or the other, the more extreme elements of the losing side are expressed.

Are you sure you have that the right way round?

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Are you sure you have that the right way round?

It looks right to me. If the pendulum swings too much to the Left the Right get mardy, and vice versa, as a counterbalancing force. Whether you agree with that is an entirely different matter. The more upset one is about the way things are going, the more proactive one is likely to be to try and change things. Conversely, the more things are going ones way, the more contented one is and, hence, less motivated than ones opposite number.

Edited November 15, 2017 by StringJunky

[MigL]

When these countries were ruled by Communism ( Russian puppet dictators ), any such protests were quickly and violently put down by paramilitary police ( and tanks ).

At least now people are allowed to voice their opinions publically , without fear of 'government' reprisals.
No matter how vile ( or just ) their cause.

That's what's good ( and bad ) about democracy.

[Silvestru]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

That's what's good ( and bad ) about democracy.

There's nothing bad about this. The problem is not that they are allowed to march.

The problem is that they are uneducated. I would love to have some statistics about the people out there marching. What they do for a living, how they spend their free time, what do they read. My guess is that the average IQ is below 80.

On the other side koti I am not polish but I have been living in Krakow for the last 6 years. I can tell you that in these 6 years I have never been discriminated or never even had a bad look. (even though I look very different from polish people). Have some faith. Poland is definitely not as xenophobic as people think.

 

 

[koti]

39 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

There's nothing bad about this. The problem is not that they are allowed to march.

The problem is that they are uneducated. I would love to have some statistics about the people out there marching. What they do for a living, how they spend their free time, what do they read. My guess is that the average IQ is below 80.

On the other side koti I am not polish but I have been living in Krakow for the last 6 years. I can tell you that in these 6 years I have never been discriminated or never even had a bad look. (even though I look very different from polish people). Have some faith. Poland is definitely not as xenophobic as people think.

 

 

The problem is that the march was under the government umbrella, they passed legislation 6 months ago to forbid any marches during the Nov. 11th marches and during the surreal, populist propaganda Smoleńsk monthly gatherings led by Kaczyński - they are implementing a police state. If it was just nazis or morons or whoever marching in whatever cause like in normal democracies nobody would make a big fuss about it, its the government blessing which is dangerous. As for Krakow and your 6 years there, Im glad to hear it (Im in Warsaw, let me know if youre coming here we’ll grab a beer) Remember that Krakow is a sanctuary of the „old intelligence” and it might not be a good indication of the whole picture. I hope your example is a valid one though. 

Edit: Yesterday the EU passed a resolution to implement sanctions against the highjacking of constitutional tribunal and the march thing in Poland. The resolution is dead on arival as the amount of beaurocracy and aditional voting required for it to actually take place is endless - and our government is well aware of it. So again answering iNow’s OP, theres isn’t any way to counter this without destroying our autonomy as a democratic state - its a vicious circle. 

On a side note, recently a middle class chemist set himslef on fire and died in Warsaw in protest of the current government. Its something unprecedented in Polish history even taking into account the deep regime of the 1960’s and 70’s. Have you seen the filthy government reactions to this? It’s ubelievable, sometimes I want to wake up from this bad dream (give in my passport and just leave)

Edited November 16, 2017 by koti