60,000 Nazis Marched in Poland this weekend

[Silvestru]

4 minutes ago, koti said:

As for Krakow and your 6 years there, Im glad to hear it (Im in Warsaw, let me know if youre coming here we’ll grab a beer) Remember that Krakow is a sanctuary of the „old intelligence” and it might not be a good indication of the whole picture. I hope your example is a valid one though. 

I understand your concerns regarding the government. Hopefully things will changes.

Piwo to świetny pomysł, dam ci znać następnym razem, gdy będę w Warszawie  

[koti]

4 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I understand your concerns regarding the government. Hopefully things will changes.

 

Piwo to świetny pomysł, dam ci znać następnym razem, gdy będę w Warszawie  

Spoko, daj znać jak będziesz w Warszawie  Oraz piszesz jak rasowy Polak (pamiętaj tylko, że „Ci” zawsze z dużej litery) 

Lets keep this in English though from now on.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, koti said:

there isn’t any way to counter this without destroying our autonomy as a democratic state - its a vicious circle. 

You’re right to highlight how this cycle is self-reinforcing, but I need to push back slightly on the idea that autonomy and democracy must be somehow destroyed to counter this situation.

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Again, we need MORE democracy in its truest sense. We need MORE people standing up to be counted. We need louder voices and MORE passion from those who find these racist and nationalist tendencies outdated and repugnant. Too often, however, the passion is only visible from the minority who scapegoats and blames everything on other minorities.

We need to talk to people, perhaps in their own language just as you and silvestru have done here, to remind them of our deeper values; to remind them that there are better ways to solve the problems we collectively face; to demonstrate that’s it’s not us and them, but just us; to remind them that scapegoating only delays solutions and deepens problems thus making us all much worse off; to remind them that we’re all in this together and are far stronger when we stand up against these pathetic twats in a unified, consistent, energized way. 

Democracy is EXACTLY what’s needed to solve this, but so too is increased effort and engagement from the great majority who quietly and silently oppose it. We must find their unmute button. That’s the lever we must push.

Edited November 16, 2017 by iNow

[koti]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Unfortunately this is incorrect in the context of the current situation in Poland. The populist right with their countless breaches and dismantling of the democratic state has been in power for 2 years and the polls are 44% for the a holes at power vs 21% for the liberal democratic opposition previously at power... with the rational left 8% and the extreme right 6%.

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

You’re right to highlight how this cycle is self-reinforcing, but I need to push back slightly on the idea that autonomy and democracy must be somehow destroyed to counter this situation.

Instead, I posit that we need MORE democracy and that part of the problem here is that the majority of the populace actually agrees this is out of line, but for various other reasons (fear, anxiety, lack of time, focus on more foundational things like putting food on the table and paying bills, etc.) They choose not to speak up. Most folks are unknowingly complicit with their silence even though their words carry such tremendous weight and would do so much to counterbalance this ignorance and hatred.

Again, we need MORE democracy in its truest sense. We need MORE people standing up to be counted. We need louder voices and MORE passion from those who find these racist and nationalist tendencies outdated and repugnant. Too often, however, the passion is only visible from the minority who scapegoats and blames everything on other minorities.

We need to talk to people, perhaps in their own language just as you and silvestru have done here, to remind them of our deeper values; to remind them that there are better ways to solve the problems we collectively face; to demonstrate that’s it’s not us and them, but just us; to remind them that scapegoating only delays solutions and deepens problems thus making us all much worse off; to remind them that we’re all in this together and are far stronger when we stand up against these pathetic twats in a unified, consistent, energized way. 

Democracy is EXACTLY what’s needed to solve this, but so too is increased effort and engagement from the great majority who quietly and silently oppose it. We must find their unmute button. That’s the lever we must push.

Agreed but how? The echo chamber provides many soldiers for the army of the righteously indignant and the silently opposed tend to feel/be individual and it takes an exceptional individual to stand up to an army.

[tuco]

Democracy is capable of destroying itself from within. That is why there are safeguards, like a constitution for example. That is also why the situation in Poland is worrying as such safeguards are being weakened. As it was said, the march in question is not the biggest problem Poland has at the moment. 

How? Well, what to say? By passing time .. I think the fact that Poland is part of the EU, thus subject to at least some actual outside influence,  allows for an optimistic prospect. Mr. Orbán in Hungary been trying to defy the EU since his massive election win couple of years ago and while some steps taken by his administration are questionable, he has not defied the EU yet. 

As noted, and it's my belief, the Polish people themselves gotta make it right, just like people elsewhere, for example in the US (Trump) or the UK (Brexit). For that, they need time. And if they will not make it right? What to do but to say ... it's too bad. There is no Messiah. 

We live in interesting and fast-changing times.

Edited November 16, 2017 by tuco

[dimreepr]

22 minutes ago, tuco said:

Democracy is capable of destroying itself from within. That is why there are safeguards, like a constitution for example. That is also why the situation in Poland is worrying as such safeguards are being weakened. As it was said, the march in question is not the biggest problem Poland has at the moment. 

How? Well, what to say? By passing time .. I think the fact that Poland is part of the EU, thus subject to at least some actual outside influence,  allows for an optimistic prospect. Mr. Orbán in Hungary been trying to defy the EU since his massive election win couple of years ago and while some steps taken by his administration are questionable, he has not defied the EU yet. 

As noted, and it's my belief, the Polish people themselves gotta make it right, just like people elsewhere, for example in the US (Trump) or the UK (Brexit). For that, they need time. And if they will not make it right? What to do but to say ... it's too bad. There is no Messiah. 

We live in interesting and fast-changing times.

 

 

One man/woman can, but they have to be extraordinary. 

Quote

There is no Messiah.

But there is always a Mandela or Gandhi or Jesus or Mohamid or Buddha or...

When the need arises.

[tuco]

On the contrary, I would think that circumstance has to be extraordinary but that is not why we are here on this topic. All I wanted to say I support the notion of "more democracy" from previous posts, and while doing so I got sidetracked, sorry about that. 

On a lighter note:

 

 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, koti said:

the polls are 44% for the a holes at power vs 21% for the liberal democratic opposition previously at power... with the rational left 8% and the extreme right 6%.

I never said it would be easy, but remember there are countless others who disagree and chose not to vote or who are not represented in the polls for various reasons. We need to encourage and reinforce their voices, especially given the strong headwinds you cite.

[John Cuthber]

21 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It looks right to me. If the pendulum swings too much to the Left the Right get mardy, and vice versa, as a counterbalancing force. Whether you agree with that is an entirely different matter. The more upset one is about the way things are going, the more proactive one is likely to be to try and change things. Conversely, the more things are going ones way, the more contented one is and, hence, less motivated than ones opposite number.

OK, so, at the moment, we have a very Right wing govt in the UK and we have the loony right out on the streets; the likes of "Britain furst" are picking up members.

Similarly, in the aftermath of the Brexit vote- where the pro Brexit side won we had a massive increase in racially motivated violence. 

Now, I'm not saying that all Brexiteers were racist, but practically all the racists were pro Brexit.
So the evidence shows (unsurprisingly) that when a group perceive that they are "winning" they go out and brag about it, while those who feel they are on the losing side are intimidated into staying home.

I'm not sure which effect wins- especially since it's difficult to trust the news media.

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

OK, so, at the moment, we have a very Right wing govt in the UK and we have the loony right out on the streets; the likes of "Britain furst" are picking up members.

Similarly, in the aftermath of the Brexit vote- where the pro Brexit side won we had a massive increase in racially motivated violence. 

Now, I'm not saying that all Brexiteers were racist, but practically all the racists were pro Brexit.
So the evidence shows (unsurprisingly) that when a group perceive that they are "winning" they go out and brag about it, while those who feel they are on the losing side are intimidated into staying home.

I'm not sure which effect wins- especially since it's difficult to trust the news media.

Although rather tenuous, my view is that the middle ground, where most people probably are, is swinging Left. Whereas before, Corbyn was seen as towards hard Left, i get the feeling he's being seen increasingly by moderate voters as more mainstream which suggests a shift in the collective attitude. I personally am shifting more Left because I feel this government is too capitalistic and social/humanitarian  matters are dwindling in importance to them. Quite frankly, I think certain things should be under government control, especially areas of infrastructure and social care. i would class myself as a typical moderate voter that can vote either way depending on the needs of a particular era.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, iNow said:

I never said it would be easy, but remember there are countless others who disagree and chose not to vote or who are not represented in the polls for various reasons. We need to encourage and reinforce their voices, especially given the strong headwinds you cite.

The problem is, the non-voters tend to be apathetic, not fearless, they tend to want to keep their heads down and trust the status quo.

21 hours ago, tuco said:

On the contrary, I would think that circumstance has to be extraordinary  

 

Extraordinary circumstance defines extraordinary people.

21 hours ago, tuco said:

but that is not why we are here on this topic.

I disagree.

19 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Although rather tenuous, my view is that the middle ground, where most people probably are, is swinging Left. Whereas before, Corbyn was seen as towards hard Left, i get the feeling he's being seen increasingly by moderate voters as more mainstream which suggests a shift in the collective attitude. I personally am shifting more Left because I feel this government is too capitalistic and social/humanitarian  matters are dwindling in importance to them. Quite frankly, I think certain things should be under government control, especially areas of infrastructure and social care. i would class myself as a typical moderate voter that can vote either way depending on the needs of a particular era.

Corbyn didn't win...

[iNow]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The problem is, the non-voters tend to be apathetic, not fearless, they tend to want to keep their heads down and trust the status quo.

Indeed, and one of my core points is that we'll never change that if we too become apathetic in encouraging others to speak up or if we also decide that we should keep our own heads down regarding the behavior of the status quo perpetuaters you cite. 

[dimreepr]

Perhaps voting should be made mandatory.

Follow the Australian model.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps voting should be made mandatory.

Follow the Australian model.

I support that and we’re already talking about it and related topics to improve voting over here for anyone desiring to discuss more: 

 

 

[koti]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps voting should be made mandatory.

Follow the Australian model.

 

Sounds reasonable.

[MigL]

Your assumption is that citizens forced to vote, will educate themselves on the issues.

Otherwise you have a group of people playing Tic-Tac-Toe on their ballot forms.

[iNow]

Hey folks... I put that link to the other thread there for a reason. The idea of compulsory voting definitely makes for interesting discussion. Just don’t do it here in this thread, please. 

Now, speaking of the rise of white nationalism... is that flame getting hotter or already slowly extinguishing? Can we help to snuff it out more quickly somehow?

[koti]

The biggest and most objective Polish news channel -TVN24 owned by US „Srcripps Network Interactive” was fined yesterday 1.5mln PLN (~420K USD) by our National Broadcasting Council which is controlled by the rulling party and also largely by a religious oligarch Father Tadeusz Rydzyk. The fine might not look so painful untill you realize that it deals only with 2 days worth of news coverage during December 2016 circus that was on last year in the Polish parliament. According to the laws they recently made, they are capable of putting a single fine on a channel 100x that amount - 40mln USD. This is getting ridiculous, some people here are pissed, some are happy but most are apathetic. The EU already put fines on the Polish government for cutting down forests against our internal law and the EU law, more fines are coming for dismantling the constitutional tribunal - can be billions if they decide to stop the flow of EU funds to Poland. It really does feel like were flushing last 28 years of freedom and economic growth down the toilet.

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2017/12/276567.htm

 

 

[iNow]

It’s a year after Charlottesville. The problem of white nationalism is worsening. 

The following is a must watch for anyone hoping to understand. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/documenting-hate-charlottesville/

Quote

In Documenting Hate: Charlottesville, FRONTLINE and ProPublica investigate the white supremacists and neo-Nazis involved in the 2017 Charlottesville Unite the Right rally. This is the first in a series of two Documenting Hate films from FRONTLINE and ProPublica, with the second coming later this fall.

Video at the link

[koti]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

It’s a year after Charlottesville. The problem of white nationalism is worsening. 

The following is a must watch for anyone hoping to understand. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/documenting-hate-charlottesville/

Video at the link

I watched first 15 minutes, will watch the rest later. One thing which caught my attention is that it seems those who took part in the protests and incidents in Charlotsville were white supremasists and white nationalist on one side and BLM, LGBT and SJW’s on the other. Ofcourse there must have been some number of average Joes on both sides but they were not in the majority - I think its a good thing and it seems the Charolotsville insidents might not be representative of what the majority of Americans thinks.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, koti said:

I watched first 15 minutes, will watch the rest later. One thing which caught my attention is that it seems those who took part in the protests and incidents in Charlotsville were white supremasists and white nationalist on one side and BLM, LGBT and SJW’s on the other. Ofcourse there must have been some number of average Joes on both sides but they were not in the majority - I think its a good thing and it seems the Charolotsville insidents might not be representative of what the majority of Americans thinks.

Here is the U.S. a combination of both sides do the same thing and it doesn't really impact many people has been used to down play any numbers of extremely serious problems. We know from multiple intelligence reports and legal indictments that Russian intelligence has actively sought to influence public opinion toward BLM and other SJW  groups while actively promoting White Nationalism and the Trump administration. Saying these protests and the associated violence may be a good thing and not representative of the majority doesn't ring true in my opinion. Trump is President in part because of all this stuff. Trump is about to seat his second Supreme Court justice. A Justice he has selected to please the most extreme factions of his supporters. All this stuff 100% impacts the majority regardless of how reflective of the majorities beliefs it all seems to be.

Also BLM, LGBTQ, and other SJW groups do not promote violence or discrimination against anyone. The are equality for all proponents. White Supremacist/Nationalist groups are proponents of discrimination and believe in using violence to achieve dominance. The groups (SJW vs Nazis) are not equivalents of each other and for the convenience of appearing nonpartisan should never be treated as such.    

 

[iNow]

3 hours ago, koti said:

might not be representative of what the majority of Americans thinks.

It’s hard to say, and may not even matter what the majority thinks. The majority is rather often silent, and as one can see in the film I shared, it’s often a few centralized leaders who manage to cluster like minded extremists together and get them to willingly step forward out of the shadows. They’re the ones driving this conversation.

One comment which is sticking with me is how much joy these nationalists seem to take in the mayhem, how they’re displaying a “happy rage.” It also bothers me how so many police seem to sanction the racism and acts of violence, failing to step in and help.

[Ten oz]

21 minutes ago, iNow said:

One comment which is sticking with me is how much joy these nationalists seem to take in the mayhem, how they’re displaying a “happy rage.” It also bothers me how so many police seem to sanction the racism and acts of violence, failing to step in and help.

I think that through  whataboutism arguments, countless false equivalencies, Russian trolls, and analytics drive social media messaging the majority of people have been intimidated into not choosing sides. Taking a stance against hate groups in 2018 feels like a partisan political thing do an average people don't want to be partisan. I suspect many Police officers and average Joe's simply don't want to be accused of political activism or choosing sides. They unwittingly give hate speech the full respect of standard political advocacy because they cannot distinguish the difference in our current times.  

[koti]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Here is the U.S. a combination of both sides do the same thing and it doesn't really impact many people has been used to down play any numbers of extremely serious problems. We know from multiple intelligence reports and legal indictments that Russian intelligence has actively sought to influence public opinion toward BLM and other SJW  groups while actively promoting White Nationalism and the Trump administration. Saying these protests and the associated violence may be a good thing and not representative of the majority doesn't ring true in my opinion. Trump is President in part because of all this stuff. Trump is about to seat his second Supreme Court justice. A Justice he has selected to please the most extreme factions of his supporters. All this stuff 100% impacts the majority regardless of how reflective of the majorities beliefs it all seems to be.

Also BLM, LGBTQ, and other SJW groups do not promote violence or discrimination against anyone. The are equality for all proponents. White Supremacist/Nationalist groups are proponents of discrimination and believe in using violence to achieve dominance. The groups (SJW vs Nazis) are not equivalents of each other and for the convenience of appearing nonpartisan should never be treated as such.    

 

I’m not saying that Charlotsville was a good thing, what I’m saying is that hopefuly the majority is more central in their pollitical views than the people from Charlotsville. Ofcourse its not fair to put an equal sign between white supremacists and SJW’s, one group is plainly revolting while the other is infantile and hypocritical. Saying that the „extreme left” are behind equality for all proponents is like saying that Trump has integrity.

30 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s hard to say, and may not even matter what the majority thinks. The majority is rather often silent, and as one can see in the film I shared, it’s often a few centralized leaders who manage to cluster like minded extremists together and get them to willingly step forward out of the shadows. They’re the ones driving this conversation.

One comment which is sticking with me is how much joy these nationalists seem to take in the mayhem, how they’re displaying a “happy rage.” It also bothers me how so many police seem to sanction the racism and acts of violence, failing to step in and help.

I agree its scary that the cops seem to vividly lean towards one side. As for the violence, I would consider Charlotsville a peacful protest compared to other things happening in the world. The fact that nobody got shot in a country where anybody can have a gun is amazing.