Spinal cord of DNA-molecule

[vlamir]

In a basis of that, what we name as common sense, there is the principle, according to which, we prefer, from many probable explanations other things being equal, the simplest explanation. And it, basically, is correctly because process of cognition occurs from simple to complex. But, unfortunately, in parallel sciences this principle is observed very seldom. So, for example, two parallel sciences – the physics and the chemistry, investigate the same object – substance.

Thus, the physicists should give correct model of a structure of atoms, whereupon the chemists, using this model, should give correct model of a structure of molecules, including, the correct spatial structure of the elementary cell of life, i.e. a structure of the molecule of desoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). After that chemists and physicists should give the unequivocal answer to a question – what is LIFE. It is the main question for our civilization.

…

In such a way the small article (4 pages) "Spinal cord of DNA-molecule" begins.

 

Now the server, where there is my web-site, is broken, therefore I have placed this article in my small homepage:

 

http://www.sinor.ru/~polytron/Spinal_cord_of_DNA-molecule_e.htm

 

http://www.sinor.ru/~polytron/Spinal_cord_of_DNA-molecula_r.htm

 

As soon as the server will be repaired, I shall place the article in my web-site in PDF-format.

[zyncod]

People gave up on the "What is life?" question about 50 years ago. Nobody would really call a prion (causative agent for mad cow disease) 'alive,' but viruses are considered by many people to be alive. There's no really distinctive line that you can draw between prions/viruses or even between crystals/life. The next question in line for people to stop asking is "What is consciousness?"

[Bluenoise]

too bad the english version doesn't work...

[vlamir]

...The next question in line for people to stop asking is "What is consciousness?"

In fact I have answered this question.

Monomer D-ribose is an elementary cell of consciousness.

[Mokele]

Monomer D-ribose is an elementary cell of consciousness.

 

Can you back that up? In English? It seems rather silly to reduce "consciousness" down to a single monomer, as if it's just some crystal or polymer. That's like saying that malate dehydrogenase is the the elementary particle of the Kreb's cycle. The cycle is a series of interconnected, interdependent reactions, not just a polymer.

 

In fact, I'd even be amazed if you could actually *define* consciousness in terms that lend themselves to experimental analysis; nobody else seems to be able to.

 

Mokele

[Bluenoise]

It'd be nice if you presented something to back this up instead of a just a link in Russian

[vlamir]

To Mokele

Monomer D-ribose is capable to carry out elementary mathematical actions 2+2=4 and 2^2=4. Polymer of n monomers is capable to carry out 2^n and 2^(2n). Everyone monomer occupies own place in space and can be programmed and reprogrammed in time.

Hence, the openwork structure of DNA comprises the information about the place and time of events.

*

To Bluenoise

???

To my mind, I have given the links, both in Russian (…_r.htm), and in English (…_e.htm).

[Bluenoise]

Well the english one doesn't work then. try the link and see.

[Mokele]

Monomer D-ribose is capable to carry out elementary mathematical actions 2+2=4 and 2^2=4. Polymer of n monomers is capable to carry out 2^n and 2^(2n). Everyone monomer occupies own place in space and can be programmed and reprogrammed in time.

Hence, the openwork structure of DNA comprises the information about the place and time of events.

 

Snakes are also *capable* of coiling up like a spring and bouncing, using that as a mode of locomotor. The muscles are there, and are certainly strong enough. Why do I bring this up?

 

Just because something *can* be done doesn't mean it *is* done.

 

So you showed that this monomer can store info. Bravo. But can you prove, empirically, that it actually *does* so in living organisms? Can you even test this hypothesis?

 

For that matter, can you even propose a potential mechanism by which this information would be encoded, stored, and retrieved?

 

Mokele

[vlamir]

Bluenoise, try now:

http://www.sinor.ru/~polytron/index.html

[vlamir]

Mokele,

This information is reserved in vibrating elements of atoms, i.e. in polytrons.

Polytrons have a set of own resonant frequencies, which can be calculated from spectra of radiation of atoms.

The exchange of energy with various frequencies is coding and recoding of atoms.

But I have no opportunity to check up it in any other way.

[zyncod]

under influence of classical music, the crystals of water get amazing beauty form, and, on the contrary, under action of heavy music they become ugly. (from website)

 

Um... what?

[Mokele]

So, really, you've just put forth a possibility, rather than an actual solution.

 

The problem I'm seeing is I can't see how information gathered by the senses could be tranfered to these vibrations. Nerve impulses are how everything works in terms of sensory input, so how can a nerve impulse become stored in this way?

 

It just seems to me like a poor fit for the problem. So far as we know, there's no intracellular mechanism for doing this.

 

Also, does altering the stored frequency change the shape or charge or the molecule?

 

Mokele

[vlamir]

To Mokele

I see, you have started to move to understanding of this mechanism.

In any case, somewhere in depth of atom there is very reliable mechanism for information interchange with other atoms and molecules.

The basis of this mechanism – resonant vibrators, which form the set of discrete frequencies, strictly connected with temperature.

So, for example, at temperature ~3K hydrogen radiates and absorbs energy with length of wave 7.35cm. This length of wave corresponds to "a frequency jump" from 2.402*10^11Hz up to 2.361*10^11Hz and back.

Each given kind of organism can functionate and develop only at very narrow interval of temperatures. At this temperature, atoms in molecules of organism, being contact with each other, exchange with energy of strictly limited interval of frequencies. It is specific language of the given kind of alive creatures, including their genetic language.

As you see, I can precisely calculate temperatures and frequencies, at which there is an information exchange between atoms.

Unfortunately, I have no powerful equipment and software to execute similar calculations for complex molecules. But time does not cost on a place, and, maybe, we shall invent more simple algorithms.

 

To Zyncod

These researches were executed by one Japanese scientist. I read about it for a long time in a paper variant. In the article there were many colourful photos.

[Mokele]

Each given kind of organism can functionate and develop only at very narrow interval of temperatures. At this temperature, atoms in molecules of organism, being contact with each other, exchange with energy of strictly limited interval of frequencies.

 

Flat-out wrong.

 

Most living creatures do *not* have a constant body temperature by any means. In fact, only 2 classes so: birds and mammals. In the former, many species drop their body temperature significantly during their sleep to conserve energy, and in the latter, not only are nocturnal temperature drops the norm, but many species also hibernate, during which time their body temperature drops to ambient and control systems are mostly suspended.

 

This also doesn't answer my questions:

1) Where does this stored info come from?

2) How does it get into the molecules to begin with?

3) How can it be retrieved?

4) Where is the evidence that this is even happening at all?

 

As I said earlier, lots of things *could* be, but science is concerned with what *is*. The very nature of your proposed system almost precludes it operating within cellular control (which means protien control), let alone communicating with the nervous system.

 

It'd make a great science fiction story, but so far that's all it is, fiction.

 

Mokele

[insane_alien]

what has D-ribose got to do with a "spinal cord" of DNA? and aren't D-ribose polymers RNA? the structured water refered to in the website also leads me to doubts in mentions it as ice but our bodies (and that of all animals and most plants except in hibernation cycles) is too warm for ice to form or if it is most animals/plants have developed a sort of antifreeze. if anything liquid water is more important. i also don't see how it can be intelligent. as for iceformation "influenced" by classical music and heavy music, I tried this cos i had a few hours spare time and was very bored. I froze some water with some mozart playing and then i froze some more water with some napalm death turned up very loud. guess what, the ice looked EXACTLY THE SAME even under a microscope so idon't know what this is about.

 

by the way i just checked up on this, physisists(sp? that looks like too many s's) and chemists both come out with identical shapes for both atoms and molecules. (chemists don't really concern themselves with sub atomics other than electrons and protons and neutrons since the quarks and gluons and all that don't affect the chemical reaction which is on a huge scale compared to quantum mechanics)

[Mokele]

the structured water refered to in the website

 

It mentions structured water? Fancy that, psuedoscience based on psuedoscience.

 

Mokele

[vlamir]

Dear Mokele,

Thanks for compliments. I know myself, that my idea looks as a fantasy. I continuously analyze itself, also I try to find weak places in this idea. But the mathematics speaks, that it is the validity.

As to your questions, I see, that Insane_alien speaks truly. It is the scale of quantum mechanics. But I would like to add, that the existing theory of elementary particles has many own problems. Therefore, for the time being, it cannot be applied for an explanation of processes in alive organisms.

Besides, I am surprised a little, that you do not know, that water in alive cells is structured always. It is known, at least, hundred years.

 

Dear Insane_alien,

You have incorrectly made experiment. The crystal of water (ice) should grow from a phase of saturated vapour on edge of very thin needle. In this case one crystal grows only. Any external influences (for example, music) influence on process of crystallization (or structurizations of water).

By the way, it is the answer to the question by Mokele – "How does it get into the molecules to begin with?"

[Mokele]

But the mathematics speaks, that it is the validity.

 

Lots of very mathematically elegant ideas have no place in reality. As I said over and over, theory is one thing, but it's useless without experimental confirmation.

 

It is the scale of quantum mechanics.

 

A scale which living processes do not interact with. The smallest part of a living system whose movement is governed by that system is a sodium ion, which, iirc, is so large that quantum effects are negligible. There's a few more ions, water, oxygen, co2, and assorted other compounds, all too large to show any significant quantum effects,and beyond that you get into fats, polysacharides, and protiens.

 

Nothing in a cell is capable of controlled interaction at a quantum level.

 

Besides, I am surprised a little, that you do not know, that water in alive cells is structured always. It is known, at least, hundred years.

 

This might be the language barrier, but over here "structured water" is the name of a psuedoscience theory that subjecting water to particular sound frequencies will permanently alter it's properties, pushing it into another "phase" if you will. This has been shown, very conclusively, to be wrong.

 

The water in a cell is just water with crap in it.

 

You have incorrectly made experiment. The crystal of water (ice) should grow from a phase of saturated vapour on edge of very thin needle. In this case one crystal grows only. Any external influences (for example, music) influence on process of crystallization (or structurizations of water).

By the way, it is the answer to the question by Mokele – "How does it get into the molecules to begin with?"

 

If we assume that vibrations (or certain frequencies of photons) can set up these vibration patterns, what's to stop the very next signal from simply overwriting it?

 

How can this supposedly stored information be accessed in a way that cells can understand?

 

And how can this be linked to consciousness at all?

 

There is a long, LONG way between showing that something happens in crystals and in living cells, and further still between that and showing that it's actually a the "cause" of consciousness.

 

-------------

 

Actually, hang on a sec: If this common sugar causes consciousness, does that mean every living thing, from a human to an amoeba, is conscious?

 

Mokele

[insane_alien]

 

The water in a cell is just water with crap in it.

 

Mokele

 

Never heard so elegantly put! lol! yes i think there might be a language barrier with structured water otherwise it does not make sense.

 

Can you explain further on structured water? surely you don't mean crystals.

 

Quantum effects on the scale we are talking about are just photon capture and emission and electron orbitals but thats it and its quite well understood.

[donkey]

just as an aside, water will of course form some sort of ordered structure in a cell - it'll just create hydration shells around other molecules etc.

 

But yeah, I don't think that's what you guys are talking about - it sounds like this is some sort of homeopathy debate.

[Mokele]

Can you explain further on structured water? surely you don't mean crystals.

 

Nope, apparently ages ago some scientists claimed to have created "structured water" or "polywater" by exposure to a particular sound frequencies. They claimed that this water exhibited different properties, mostly in boiling and melting points, as well as viscosity. However, over the years, more and more experiments amassed and showed that these "differences" were the combined effect of impurities, improperly clean glassware, and normal experimental scatter.

 

However, as donkey rightly postulated, the homeopathy crowd has latched onto this with a vengance. And why not, if you can just pump sound at some gallon jugs of tap water then turn around and sell them for $5 each? As I keep saying, if I only had less ethics, I'd be a millionaire off this crap.

 

Mokele

[vlamir]

Dear Mokele,

You too simplify a structure of atoms.

The electronic theory is too rough to explain functioning an alive matter.

Accordingly, subconsciously basing on this theory, you underestimate opportunities of D-ribose, DNA, RNA, etc.

At the same time, you deify opportunities of nerve cell.

It is simple psychological breach between very small and very big.

For example, monomer of D-ribose can be comparable with the accounting calculator, whereas one simple neuron can be comparable with the universe.

Accordingly, water, as the main component of a D-ribose and other monosaccharides, provides stepped transfer of the information along nucleotides.

I cannot demand from you the big knowledge in physics of atom.

At the same time, I do not want to apologize for supporters of the official physical paradigm.

I think, that the theoretical physics is in deep crisis.

But, unfortunately, I see, that chemists, biologists, genetics, etc. do not understand it, and allow to physicists to rest on old laurels.

In front of you there is a computer. You well know, that the computer has two types of memory and very well copes with huge streams of the information.

All details of a computer are made of atoms and molecules.

Then what we argue about?

[Mokele]

Accordingly, subconsciously basing on this theory, you underestimate opportunities of D-ribose, DNA, RNA, etc.

At the same time, you deify opportunities of nerve cell.

 

I do not "deify" anything. I can *prove* that nerve cells are used by living organisms to gather informations about their environment, and that these nerve cells interact with each other, glands, and muscles. The brain is also made of neurons. Given that, not only is it logical to start looking at the neurons first as the source of consciousness, but you'd need a *damn* good reason to discount them.

 

Then what we argue about?

 

That your idea is just speculation. I don't give a crap how well the physics works; that's unimportant. What matters is *does it happen*? Lots of things are *possible*, but not all possibilities occur. Give me *empirical* support for your theory, or I'm going to ask the mods that this thread be moved to psuedoscience.

 

Mokele

[vlamir]

Dear Mokele,

In our Russian forum "Membrana", it is literally at the given hours, two discussions about the freedom of speech and democracy in science are developing.

I think, you would have a hot bath for your conservatism.

Well! If you are not capable to understand resonant mechanisms of transfer and storing of the information at atomic level, then try to analyze own words: "I can *prove* that nerve cells are used by living organisms to gather informations about their environment, and that these nerve cells interact with each other, glands ãëàíäû, and muscles. The brain is also made of neurons. …"

from origin of nerve cells till their full maturity.

At this time there is a development of consciousness under the following consecution:

Reflex –> Instinct –> Stereotype –> Reason 1 –> Reason 2 –> Intuition –> Intellect.

Unfortunately, in English, there is no precise gradation for last four intellectual levels of a human brain. Though, I. Kant had made this gradation.