Trump to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

[pavelcherepan]

10 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Please explain? 

Which part? That it will cost lives or that it was inevitable?

[interested]

21 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Israel was created in 1948 however the British had been working on the territory for decades prior. To say Palestine was a few Nomadic tribes isn't accurate. It had formerly been part of the Ottoman Empire and wrestled away during WW1 by the British and the territory purposely segregated to make way for the future creation of a Jewish state.

To say the people were just Nomads, and therefore it is OK to grab the land, could apply to any historic land grab possibly America, South Africa, Australia.  

The consensus is Trump is a nutter. The people in the middle east of today were not alive thousands of years ago, but are basing there hurt feelings on historical injustice. They will throw stones and get them selves shot, it most likely will escalate. 

Would a better way of calming hostilities rather than trying to provoke them not been a media campaign explaining how the world works. Religion is simply a tool for controlling society and helping groups have some form of social cohesion, ie form into tribes, it is not based on fact. Politicians use tribalism as a tool to control people etc etc ad infinitum and has been going on for millennia. The people who are going to get hurt are those who are dumb enough to believe their religious holy places are worth dying for.

Leaders and politicians cause wars, not individual generally uneducated people in the desert who just want to get along with their lives, behaving as they do because that is what they were taught. In the case of the Palestinians they are percieved as been wronged. America occasionally claims to support world justice, in this instance they have supported injustice. 

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, interested said:

... America occasionally claims to support world justice, in this instance they have supported injustice. 

It was very arrogant and inconsiderate of the allied forces to cut land out for the Jewish community... all this shit's our fault.

[interested]

51 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It was very arrogant and inconsiderate of the allied forces to cut land out for the Jewish community... all this shit's our fault.

At the end of the second world war many displaced Jews went to Palestine, so you could argue it was Hitlers fault.

We are not responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, and in no way is the action of dead politicians our fault today.

The Politicians of today are failing to agree not the general public who will be affected.

The consensus appears to be the Palestinians have been wronged. I wonder what the average Israeli who has been living in Jerusalem alongside Palestinians thinks of Trumps decision, I also wonder if the Israeli Politicians think it was a good idea, for trump to do what he has done. A lot of innocent Israelis are going to get hurt as well as Palestinians. Normal people just want to get on with their lives without wacko politicians looking for a fight, over land resources or some religion, based on fairy stories, originating from earlier religions based on fairy stories, and astrology.  The Palestinians and the Jews are genetically the same race, separated by religion, and politics.

Edit- Perhaps a solution to the political problem with Jerusalem, is to declare it as an individual state like the Vatican in Rome. The religious leaders could be given diplomatic immunity and travel the world on diplomatic passports advising politicians what to do. Perhaps the Pope or an elected politician could reside there and rule over it all, like the head of the holy roman empire, maybe the king of spain could go there as well, to give it a bit of Royal class. The above idea is based very losely around revelations. Is that what Trump wants.

Edited December 9, 2017 by interested

[Ten oz]

13 hours ago, pavelcherepan said:

Which part? That it will cost lives or that it was inevitable?

It was inevitable?

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, interested said:

We are not responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, and in no way is the action of dead politicians our fault today.

 

But we do have to accept we're part of the same culture that is responsible and deal with it, not blame it on those who find themselves in the middle or their culture. Pandering to the side we imposed on the rest, is perpetuating the crimes of our ancestors but they aren't responsible for that. 

[interested]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But we do have to accept we're part of the same culture that is responsible and deal with it, not blame it on those who find themselves in the middle or their culture. Pandering to the side we imposed on the rest, is perpetuating the crimes of our ancestors but they aren't responsible for that. 

Why should WE police the middle east. What political right do we have to interfere in the politics of another country.  If the outside world stopped meddling with different countries we might have a more stable world now.

[Ten oz]

1 minute ago, interested said:

Why should WE police the middle east. What political right do we have to interfere in the politics of another country.  If the outside world stopped meddling with different countries we might have a more stable world now.

This question poses a false premise. All countries exercise foreign policy based on their own self interests. What happens in the Middle East impacts the cost of fuel which in turn impacts the cost of travel, shipping, construction, and etc. International relations directly impact the daily lives of billions around the world. Less you live somewhere that produces all its own food,  energy, technology, and etc you 100% live some place that "interferes"with other countries. The sensible thing to discuss is how and not if.

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, interested said:

Why should WE police the middle east. What political right do we have to interfere in the politics of another country.  If the outside world stopped meddling with different countries we might have a more stable world now.

2

None at all... But your forefathers got rich because they did just that, what right do you have to ignore the consequences and live off the proceeds?

[interested]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

This question poses a false premise. All countries exercise foreign policy based on their own self interests. What happens in the Middle East impacts the cost of fuel which in turn impacts the cost of travel, shipping, construction, and etc. International relations directly impact the daily lives of billions around the world. Less you live somewhere that produces all its own food,  energy, technology, and etc you 100% live some place that "interferes"with other countries. The sensible thing to discuss is how and not if.

The resources of the middle east belong to the middle east to do with as they see fit. What if in view of Trump upsetting the Palestinians the whole of the oil producing countries in the middle east, decide not to sell as much oil? Who would that benefit ? Which other countries have oil that they can sell on the world market ? Who on this planet might benefit financially from causing a restriction in oil supply globally? 

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

None at all... But your forefathers got rich because they did just that, what right do you have to ignore the consequences and live off the proceeds?

My ancestors whilst trying to be decent human beings doing what they could to survive, rarely got rich, and had little to do with political decision making. Palestine has no natural resource I am aware off which has been stolen to improve the wealth of myself or any of my ancestors. I also suspect you would be hard pressed to find any increase in wealth globally because of the problems caused in Palestine by international interference, unless of course you are involved in selling weapons, which I doubt. 

Ps the thread is about trump and palestine not me 

Edited December 9, 2017 by interested

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, interested said:

My ancestors whilst trying to be decent human beings doing what they could to survive, rarely got rich, and had little to do with political decision making.

 

Yet you compose this response on a computer, did you or yours enable its purchase, independently or did you benefit from there industry? Or are you just talking bollox?

Edited December 9, 2017 by dimreepr

[interested]

14 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Yet you compose this response on a computer, did you or yours enable its purchase, independently or did you benefit from there industry? Or are you just talking bollox?

You appear to have set views, do you think it is a good thing what Trump has done?

Do you think on average it will benefit your average Israeli and Palestinian?

Do you think your average American will benefit in any way?

Do you think it may benefit the arms trade?

Do you think it may benefit the oil industry outside the middle east?

etc

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by interested

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, interested said:

You appear to have set views, do you think it is a good thing what Trump has done?

Do you think on average it will benefit your average Israeli and Palestinian?

Do you think your average American will benefit in any way?

Do you think it may benefit the arms trade?

Do you think it may benefit the oil industry outside the middle east?

etc

 

Do you think you haven't benefited?

[interested]

14 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Do you think you haven't benefited?

Yes, I genuinely think Trump is of zero benefit to me and most of humanity, I also can not think of one single benefit to me coming out of Palestine, although I do have a suspicion you do think you have benefited and may be Christian perhaps.

Christians might think celebrating the Romans torturing to death of a mythical religious leader on a cross is acceptable. 

The Jews do not have any record of the mythical christian religious leader tortured by the Romans, and certainly do not accept a person in history who never existed as giving them any guidance on the future. Since Jesus was meant to be Jewish Royalty you think they would know. 

What would happen if the Jews turned around to all of those of a none Jewish faith in Jerusalem and said get out your religion is based on bollox.

I will of course be celebrating the winter solstice with all my other friends and family this winter.

[Ten oz]

3 hours ago, interested said:

The resources of the middle east belong to the middle east to do with as they see fit. What if in view of Trump upsetting the Palestinians the whole of the oil producing countries in the middle east, decide not to sell as much oil? Who would that benefit ? Which other countries have oil that they can sell on the world market ? Who on this planet might benefit financially from causing a restriction in oil supply globally? 

Asking me to explain how resources are distributed globally and the impact that has on specific individual economies does address anything I posted. It is all research you can do yourself. I find it laughable that after over a decades of the U.S., UK, Russia, and etc being at war on the ground at war all over the middle east you seem to be under the impression that the Middle east has or has had the freedom to do as they please and refuse to acknowledge any of it was done to benefit specific groups over others. 

[MigL]

Just two thoughts.

Other than the fact that this is just another of D Trump's inane announcements, and is probably designed to draw our attention away from his problems ( if he has the capacity to plan such a thing )...

Over 40 years of NOT recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, has not brought peace.
This will not change anything !

[Ken Fabian]

Perhaps it's a cunning plan - fan the flames of conflict around the world in order to fix the US deficit by increased exports of military hardware.

[pavelcherepan]

10 hours ago, Ten oz said:

It was inevitable?

Firstly, US has a very strong Jewish lobby, secondly, Jerusalem de facto completely belongs to Israel. It would only take time for it to be established de jure.

[iNow]

5 hours ago, MigL said:

Other than the fact that this is just another of D Trump's inane announcements, and is probably designed to draw our attention away from his problems

He also needed to strengthen a softening Christian base who’s favorability ratings of him were dropping a week before a special election in Alabama for a Senate seat they feel they MUST win.

This move shores up that Christian base and makes them more likely to come to the polls for Roy Moore, amd also for other Republicans in next years mid-term elections. It also makes Vegas GOP mega-donor, Sheldon Adelson, get a giant check writing woody. 

[John Cuthber]

8 hours ago, iNow said:

This move shores up that Christian base and makes them more likely to come to the polls for Roy Moore,

Is there a reason why they wouldn't vote for the teenager-dating Mr Moore without this sort of action?

[interested]

11 hours ago, pavelcherepan said:

Firstly, US has a very strong Jewish lobby, secondly, Jerusalem de facto completely belongs to Israel. It would only take time for it to be established de jure.

What is in it for Trump, other than votes at home. He cant be so stupid that he would not realize it would destabilize the area a little bit. To say it is a political distraction from politics at home, is a bit blinkered. To destabilize a country to get a senator elected who happens to like little girls, is not plausible. What is his game? Palestine has no natural resources the only thing that they export is possibly tourism, and religion. The tourism part will be damaged by trumps action and will not benefit America in any form of taxable revenue. Religion does not benefit any country financially, ie it is tax exempt. How can his actions be of benefit to the average American, American business, or lobby groups. Who in America will benefit from his actions.

[DrP]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:38 PM, Ten oz said:

Israel was created in 1948 however the British had been working on the territory for decades prior. To say Palestine was a few Nomadic tribes isn't accurate. 

OK - it was what I was lead to believe I will check the population figures sometime when I get time  -  I might be wrong but I think the the figures went up massively not due to breading, but to due to disgruntled arabs flocking to the place to fight. Maybe I am wrong again,,, wouldn't be the first time.

Regarding this 'day of rage' that Hamas called for after Trumps declaration..  well, I hate that sort thing. It isn't primarily about the land imo, there is SO much land and space out there that they do not have to flock to Israel - they flock their because of Jerusalem and Mecca and it is just religious dogma and that keeps the fighting going imo. The arabs have the whole of the middle east but want to displae the Jews because they can't stand the thought of loosing the holy of holies..  because they loose that it it proves their religion is BS.  

 

Yes - this 'day of rage' doesn't fill me with love and compassion for the Palestinian cause. 

EDIT - OK - I might be wrong - I can't find any serious influx of population evidence based on the yearly population growth figures...  I stand corrected. Although the figure grew a lot during the 1990's I cannot draw any conclusions for it because their could be a number of influences that cause it to grow. The number of jews grew also, so what I suppose. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by DrP

[interested]

44 minutes ago, DrP said:

OK - it was what I was lead to believe I will check the population figures sometime when I get time  -  I might be wrong but I think the the figures went up massively not due to breading, but to due to disgruntled arabs flocking to the place to fight. Maybe I am wrong again,,, wouldn't be the first time.

Regarding this 'day of rage' that Hamas called for after Trumps declaration..  well, I hate that sort thing. It isn't primarily about the land imo, there is SO much land and space out there that they do not have to flock to Israel - they flock their because of Jerusalem and Mecca and it is just religious dogma and that keeps the fighting going imo. The arabs have the whole of the middle east but want to displae the Jews because they can't stand the thought of loosing the holy of holies..  because they loose that it it proves their religion is BS.  

 

Yes - this 'day of rage' doesn't fill me with love and compassion for the Palestinian cause. 

EDIT - OK - I might be wrong - I can't find any serious influx of population evidence based on the yearly population growth figures...  I stand corrected. Although the figure grew a lot during the 1990's I cannot draw any conclusions for it because their could be a number of influences that cause it to grow. The number of jews grew also, so what I suppose. 

My understanding is and I also may be wrong. Is that the British allowed high levels of immigration until the Palestinians got uppety about it, they then stopped it. Some where along the line the Americans took over and allowed immigration to continue. This is history and the early days of the problem and a grievance the Palestinians are hanging onto. 

What are Trumps motives, what has he got to gain by his actions, if like has been suggested he is not a religious nut. 

He has placed travel bans on people from the middle east and parts of Africa to America. Not including Saudia Arabia where the 9/11 terrorists came from.

Could he be trying to provoke a war, this would be good for weapons sales and business.

Clearly he is not making any friends or improving the lives of people who will be affected by his actions.

What is his game?  Assuming Trump is not a complete Asshole(I may well be wrong on this also), he must have a reason that will benefit himself, or his friends, or America in some way, by his actions. Your average Israeli or Palestinian living in Jerusalem are not going to be over whelmed by the deteriorating  security situation. 

This is a bit of micky take ie wind up but! Would a political work around be to declare Jerusalem a separate state like the Vatican in Rome. Perhaps priests, vicars, monks and immans from Jerusalem could all travel on diplomatic passports like the vatican priests, maybe the chief imman could address the American senate like the Pope.  America has freedom of religion embedded into the declaration of rights including the right to carry arms and kill people. Would the same declaration of rights work in Jerusalem, would they be able to achieve the same murder rates as America. 

What the hell is trump up to? what does he hope to gain?

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

Regarding this 'day of rage' that Hamas called for after Trumps declaration..  well, I hate that sort thing. It isn't primarily about the land imo, there is SO much land and space out there that they do not have to flock to Israel - they flock their because of Jerusalem and Mecca and it is just religious dogma and that keeps the fighting going imo. The arabs have the whole of the middle east but want to displae the Jews because they can't stand the thought of loosing the holy of holies..  because they loose that it it proves their religion is BS.  

 

Violence is wrong. I am no fan of the Day of Rage. That said good decision making by those in government isn't always based of what people should do but rather must consider what people will do. I think it is a mistake in political discussions when people argue about what should work or should happen rather than acknowledging what has or what is happening. This isn't a perfect world. Ultimately the decision to move the U.S. embassy has created violence which is negatively impacted Palestinians and Israelis alike. People have already died over it and far as I can tell there is nothing gained by moving the embassy.   

[iNow]

2 hours ago, interested said:

To destabilize a country to get a senator elected who happens to like little girls, is not plausible.

You obviously haven’t been paying very close attention this last year.