Trump to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

[dimreepr]

46 minutes ago, DrP said:

Being fair - answer the kid's question......   what options did they have really?

46 minutes ago, DrP said:

Apart from rubber bullets and water cannons,

Well, that and a big arsed wall, lots of tear gas, a few tanks and etc...

 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Well, that and a big arsed wall, lots of tear gas, a few tanks and etc...

 

And what do they do about the guys planting bombs and other guys shooting at them?

[dimreepr]

35 minutes ago, DrP said:

Hindsight is a marvellous thing.   

1

Indeed but never an excuse.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/u-s-blocks-investigation-60-gaza-protestors-killed-article-1.3990469

Quote

 

Among the dead was a baby who died after inhaling tear gas and eight children under the age of 16, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

At least 2,400 others were wounded.

 

Quote

 

"We condemn the appalling, deadly violence in Gaza yesterday," said Rupert Colville, a spokesman for the United Nation's Human Rights Commissioner.

Colville acknowledged that some Palestinian protesters threw rocks and attempted to damage the barbed wire fence separating Gaza from Israel, but said such acts "do not do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition."

 

 

[StringJunky]

This gets to the crux on Gaza:

Quote

Monday’s bloodshed took place as the United States opened its new embassy in contested Jerusalem. For the past six weeks, Palestinians have been holding Gaza border demonstrations for the return of Palestinian refugees to areas that are now part of Israel.

Israel rejects any right of return, fearing that it would deprive the state of its Jewish majority.

 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-palestinians/gazans-bury-dead-after-bloodiest-day-of-israel-border-protests-idUKKCN1IG195

The behaviour of Israel reminds me of Nazi Germany; They want to maintain their 'purity'. Netanyahu said as much in 2015.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Comparing it to slavery is a terrible comparison.

Well, gosh. I sure do feel better now that I've heard your opinion on the matter, one that I even preemptively tried to address (bolded) when posting:

" I’m reminded of slavery in the US. The slaves knew they’d be shot if they tried to escape the plantation, yet they still tried. Not a perfect comparison, but hopefully frames the logic you’re using in a light that makes it easier to recognize the flaw."

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

And what do they do about the guys planting bombs and other guys shooting at them?

With rocks?

I've rescinded my ignore, just in case you had anything to back up the neg rep.

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

This gets to the crux on Gaza:

The behaviour of Israel reminds me of Nazi Germany; They want to maintain their 'purity'. Netanyahu said as much in 2015.

 I don't disagree with what you're trying to say. That said I find the comparison between Israelis and Nazi rather distasteful. There are better ways to make your point.  

[CharonY]

The annoying bit is that the the whole discussion is going to be driven by hardliners who do nothing but exacerbate the situation (and the move was clearly massively capitalized in that regard by both sides). This a shrewd move to diminish the power and voice of moderates and a frigging textbook example of how to utilize conflict to stay in power.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The annoying bit is that the the whole discussion is going to be driven by hardliners who do nothing but exacerbate the situation (and the move was clearly massively capitalized in that regard by both sides). This a shrewd move to diminish the power and voice of moderates and a frigging textbook example of how to utilize conflict to stay in power.

Whilst I do, generally, agree I think "both sides" implies a parity that simply does not exist. That said, history shows, violence only really works for the powerful, the impoverished must use peace as their weapon.

[Ten oz]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

The annoying bit is that the the whole discussion is going to be driven by hardliners who do nothing but exacerbate the situation (and the move was clearly massively capitalized in that regard by both sides). This a shrewd move to diminish the power and voice of moderates and a frigging textbook example of how to utilize conflict to stay in power.

Moving the embassy was a divisive thing to do. It is true that over the decades both sides have done things to exacerbate the situation but it is still worth identifying actions on their own merits. This specific situation, the moving of the Embassy, isn't a both sides situation.This is a battle, side squirmish during the war, Israel and the U.S. are solely responsible for. 

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 I don't disagree with what you're trying to say. That said I find the comparison between Israelis and Nazi rather distasteful. There are better ways to make your point.  

In principle, it's directly equivalent. I'm not exaggerating for argumentative effect.

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 I don't disagree with what you're trying to say. That said I find the comparison between Israelis and Nazi rather distasteful. There are better ways to make your point.  

Indeed, but Israel has been hiding behind that for far too long. 

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

In principle, it's directly equivalent. I'm not exaggerating for argumentative effect.

Israel is not swearing to exterminate anyone.

They're not seeking to conquer the world.

They are not ruled by a dictator.

And they don't have laws against any groups of people within their country.

How is it directly equivalent?

 

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but Israel has been hiding behind that for far too long. 

Israel exists because of the Nazi's.

After the Holocaust, they were relocated to Israel. A tiny area of land.

Immediately, they were promptly invaded from every single country that bordered them.

 

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

With rocks?

With guns according to the IDF.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Israel is not swearing to exterminate anyone.

They're not seeking to conquer the world.

They are not ruled by a dictator.

And they don't have laws against any groups of people within their country.

How is it directly equivalent?

 

They want to keep Israel racially pure.  Do you read anything I've written?

Edited May 15, 2018 by StringJunky

[Raider5678]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

Well, gosh. I sure do feel better now that I've heard your opinion on the matter, one that I even preemptively tried to address (bolded) when posting:

" I’m reminded of slavery in the US. The slaves knew they’d be shot if they tried to escape the plantation, yet they still tried. Not a perfect comparison, but hopefully frames the logic you’re using in a light that makes it easier to recognize the flaw."

I pointed out it was far less than perfect and wasn't even close to a valid comparison, so much so, that it didn't frame the logic Dmr and I held, it was so far away from on point.

Just now, StringJunky said:

They want to keep Israel racially pure. 

Sources?

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Israel exists because of the Nazi's.

After the Holocaust, they were relocated to Israel. A tiny area of land.

Immediately, they were promptly invaded from every single country that bordered them.

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I've rescinded my ignore, just in case you had anything to back up the neg rep.

It seems not, luckily I wasn't holding my breath. 

 

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

I pointed out it was far less than perfect and wasn't even close to a valid comparison, so much so, that it didn't frame the logic Dmr and I held, it was so far away from on point.

Sources?

Do you read or what?

Quote

Monday’s bloodshed took place as the United States opened its new embassy in contested Jerusalem. For the past six weeks, Palestinians have been holding Gaza border demonstrations for the return of Palestinian refugees to areas that are now part of Israel.

Israel rejects any right of return, fearing that it would deprive the state of its Jewish majority.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-palestinians/gazans-bury-dead-after-bloodiest-day-of-israel-border-protests-idUKKCN1IG195

 

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Do you read or what?

 

I do read.

That source makes an unsubstantiated claim.

They are the ones who say that Israel is worried about racial purity. Not Israel.

That's hardly proof.

It'd be like me saying "The U.K. is only worried about racial purity" and then saying that's my source.

If I have nothing to back it up, then what is the point?

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but Israel has been hiding behind that for far too long. 

There are ways to describe bad behavior without call backs to Nazis. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Ten oz

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That's hardly proof

Now that's funny, BTW who's the IDF?

[Raider5678]

I'm done with this discussion.

Nobody will answer any of the questions I have.

All you guys will do is say how Israel is like Nazi's, how terrible they are, how they shouldn't be doing that(yet you refuse to give any examples of what else), and essentially make it clear how much you ignore history.

You act like Israel is the aggressor here. They literally only moved their Embassy to Jerusalem. 

That's it.

And suddenly, they're cruel people who are anti-semantics against the poor Palestinians.

And the Palestinians, mind you, have sworn to exterminate the Jews.

And you wonder why they don't want to let them in.

 

Israel told them clearly, if they attempted to climb, breach, or cut the fence, they would be shot at.

They did just that. And then when they got shot at, it's suddenly Israeli aggression.

Get ahold of yourselves. This is ridiculous.

 

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Now that's funny, BTW who's the IDF?

Israeli Defense Forces.

 

But if you think they're biased, let's go with the Hama's. The ones literally holding the protests:

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-violence-hamas-role-israel-embassy-us-2018-5

"We are excited to storm and get inside ... whatever is possible, to kill"

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

There are ways to describe bad behavior within call backs to Nazis. 

Indeed and I suggested, in this thread, the abused becomes the abuser.

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Israeli Defense Forces.

It was a rhetorical question.

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I do read.

That source makes an unsubstantiated claim.

They are the ones who say that Israel is worried about racial purity. Not Israel.

That's hardly proof.

It'd be like me saying "The U.K. is only worried about racial purity" and then saying that's my source.

If I have nothing to back it up, then what is the point?

If I can find his speech I will post it.

[Raider5678]

I can't believe this.

There is a group of people. Who has sworn to exterminate the Jews. Who blame them for everything that's wrong with the world.

A group of people whose main goal is to kill every man, woman, and child, who is a Jew in Israel.

A group of people who are literally a terrorist organization.

A group of people who have sent in suicide bombers and killed thousands around the world, and claim credit for doing so.

And this same group, has organized a protest. A protest, where they scream for the blood of Jews. When interviewed, they promise that if they can get into the fence they'll rain bloodshed over all of Israel.

They'll kill every man, woman, and child who is a Jew.

They plant bombs. They throw grenades. They call for death. They shoot at the soldiers. They dig tunnels under the ground. 

If this was happening to any other country, that country would be actively invading them.

And when Israel opens fire on them after warning them repeatedly, firing tear gas, smoke grenades, and rubber bullets, Israel is just a bunch of merciless pigs.

 

And you guys cast your support behind them.

You support the people screaming for the death of Jews.

You support the mass extermination of Jews.

You support the murder of millions of people.

And yet, you guys call Israel the anti-semantics, the Nazis, and the aggressors.

 

I'm done. I had so much respect for you guys. But you call for racial equality and tolerance and in the same breath support those who want another holocaust. It's just insane.

[CharonY]

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Whilst I do, generally, agree I think "both sides" implies a parity that simply does not exist. That said, history shows, violence only really works for the powerful, the impoverished must use peace as their weapon.

While I do not agree with the power difference, by fostering violence Hamas had the effect of associating Palestinian resistance with terrorism. By polarizing their own population they effectively remove power from their moderate factions. I.e. I am talking in terms of the sides within the Gaza strip and Israel, respectively, if that makes sense. But in all honesty, the situation is far too complex that I could meaningful comment on that some serious reading.