Trump to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

[Ten oz]

14 hours ago, pavelcherepan said:

Firstly, US has a very strong Jewish lobby, secondly, Jerusalem de facto completely belongs to Israel. It would only take time for it to be established de jure.

In 2016 Jewish voters went 71% to Clinton and 24% to Trump. In previous elections they voted 79% Obama, 74% Kerry, and 79% Gore. Jewish Americans don't support the more aggressive pro Israel positions Republican tout. Democrats are for a 2 state solution. Republicans not so much.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/

 

So if Jewish Americans do not support Republicans who are the Jewish Lobbyist, the "very strong Jewish Lobby" you reference, who do; White Evangelical Christians. It is their position and not that of Jewish people broadly that Jerusalem  "de facto" belongs to Israel. It is a chase of Evangelical Christian meddling.

"Christians United for Israel (CUFI) is an American Christian organization that supports actively Israel."[1] It is the largest pro-Israel organization in the United States.[2] Operating under the leadership of John Hagee, it provides a national association through which churches, parachurch organizations, ministries, and individuals in America promote support for Israel financially and politically."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel

 

"John Charles Hagee (born April 12, 1940) is the founder and senior pastor of Cornerstone Church, a megachurch in San Antonio, Texas.[2] Hagee is also the CEO of his non-profit corporation, Global Evangelism Television (GETV). He is the 5th of 6 pastors in his family, all of whom were named John Hagee, dating back to the colonial era."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee

[iNow]

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Is there a reason why they wouldn't vote for the teenager-dating Mr Moore without this sort of action?

I can think of a few

[pavelcherepan]

13 hours ago, interested said:

What is in it for Trump, other than votes at home.

Given his current approval ratings, that second part is good enough. Nowadays it's practically a foll-proof strategy, since there is little support for Palestinians or any Middle-Eastern Muslim states for that matter so siding with Israel brings in votes without any serious downsides.

13 hours ago, interested said:

He cant be so stupid that he would not realize it would destabilize the area a little bit.

Oh, wake up! Like any of the previous presidents cared about destabilising the region?

10 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Jewish Americans don't support the more aggressive pro Israel positions Republican tout. Democrats are for a 2 state solution. Republicans not so much.

Thanks for the info. Anyway, Trump wouldn't be able to get lower support ratings from Jewish community that it was, right? So he stands to lose little by siding with Israel on this matter. He might get increased support or he might stay more or less the same. 

[interested]

22 hours ago, pavelcherepan said:

Oh, wake up! Like any of the previous presidents cared about destabilising the region?

Wake up! Politicians are the most selfish SOB's on the planet. No politician does anything for nothing, there is always method in the madness. What does he hope to gain in destabilizing the region? He is already elected he does not need votes, what is his game? Oil prices, religious fulfillment, world war, big business interests, what does he stand to gain for america appearing as a twat in the middle east to not just the Palestinans but the rest of the world as well.

Another other way of viewing this is controversially that Israel runs America via the Senate, and America is simply doing Israels bidding. What is the majority religion of the senators in America, who runs the country, Israel or the American people. 

Politicians only do something like destabilizing an area if they have something to gain by doing so or something to lose by not doing so.  They do not do it out of the goodness of their hearts.  

On 12/10/2017 at 1:06 PM, iNow said:

You obviously haven’t been paying very close attention this last year. 

smoke and mirrors

[pavelcherepan]

2 hours ago, interested said:

No politician does anything for nothing, there is always method in the madness. What does he hope to gain in destabilizing the region?

You put it as if the actual goal was to de-stabilise the region. And if it were the case, you'd be right. Trump has little to gain from such a stunt. On the other hand, it's more likely that it is just a collateral damage from an attempt to gain more approval back in the US.

[Ten oz]

On 12/10/2017 at 6:45 PM, pavelcherepan said:

 

Thanks for the info. Anyway, Trump wouldn't be able to get lower support ratings from Jewish community that it was, right? So he stands to lose little by siding with Israel on this matter. He might get increased support or he might stay more or less the same. 

Sadly what he stands to gain has more to do with Mississippi and Alabama than with Israel. 

[DrP]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:42 PM, Ten oz said:

I think it is a mistake in political discussions when people argue about what should work or should happen rather than acknowledging what has or what is happening. This isn't a perfect world.  

Yea - I think I should stay out of this sort of discussion as it goes. Depending on what sources you read or view you get conflicting narratives imo. It is either a story of cruel invaders that displace the locals with no respect for them or the other side is peaceful settlers plagued by religious terrorists that aren't interested in negotiating peace but want to wage continual war until one side is wiped out. I guess I am slightly biased towards the Israeli cause and the settlers...   maybe this is because I am a westerner or maybe it was my Christian past.... either way I think I might still be biased in my thinking and will stay out of further conversation about it. Although I can only see a war to end the conflict unfortunately. Peace would be nice, but if one side won't accept what it is offered as a peaceful state solution then what can you do? Every time boundaries have been suggested 'one side' won't accept it and there is a war or a campaign of terror. They loose ground by doing this and I feel they could loose more if Israel loose their patience with them.

I still think that the dissolution of Palestine into Jordon, Syria, Lebanon etc would be a solution. There will be some that will wage war at any suggestion other than the total destruction of Israel, so, you can't please all the people so just make it final...  give Israel the lands they want round there and make the rest Jordon, Syria etc.. There is loads of space, they just push up against Israel to further their Jihadi BS imo....  but as I said - I think I am biased in my thinking about the situation, which is why I'm going to try to study the situation more...  or just stay out of it  -  none of my business thankfully.

 

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, DrP said:

Yea - I think I should stay out of this sort of discussion as it goes. Depending on what sources you read or view you get conflicting narratives imo. It is either a story of cruel invaders that displace the locals with no respect for them or the other side is peaceful settlers plagued by religious terrorists that aren't interested in negotiating peace but want to wage continual war until one side is wiped out. I guess I am slightly biased towards the Israeli cause and the settlers...   maybe this is because I am a westerner or maybe it was my Christian past.... either way I think I might still be biased in my thinking and will stay out of further conversation about it. Although I can only see a war to end the conflict unfortunately. Peace would be nice, but if one side won't accept what it is offered as a peaceful state solution then what can you do? Every time boundaries have been suggested 'one side' won't accept it and there is a war or a campaign of terror. They loose ground by doing this and I feel they could loose more if Israel loose their patience with them.

For the first 25yrs of my life all I understood about the conflict is that Hamas were terrorist which south to kill Jewish people. That throughout history from Egypt to Germany people had sought to kill Jewish people and that craziness exited today. That was the little bit I put together from school, cable news, and pop culture.  Then once I actually started following these issue and do my own reading I realized things like there is no evidence Jewish people were ever in Egypt, Palestinians have been in the territory for several hundreds of years,  many of the Jewish people in Israel were actually relocated there from parts of Europe, and etc. 

It is a very difficult to ignore the beliefs one was raise with. A two state solution would be great but as a westerner raised believing Palestinians were all terrorists it is hard not imagine Israel as the superior state (more land, larger military, more influence) in a 2 state solution. Problem with that is its a nonstarter diplomatically. It is like negotiating to resolve a fist fight between two people by telling one of them to just accept losing.

27 minutes ago, DrP said:

I still think that the dissolution of Palestine into Jordon, Syria, Lebanon etc would be a solution. There will be some that will wage war at any suggestion other than the total destruction of Israel, so, you can't please all the people so just make it final...  give Israel the lands they want round there and make the rest Jordon, Syria etc.. There is loads of space, they just push up against Israel to further their Jihadi BS imo....  but as I said - I think I am biased in my thinking about the situation, which is why I'm going to try to study the situation more...  or just stay out of it  -  none of my business thankfully.

I actually think a strong global commitment to alternative energy will resolve many of the issues. If we look at where a lot of the money in to region comes fro it is oil. If we look at where the money which is funding most of the extremist positions in the region is coming from it is oil. That goes for all sides even the extreme right wing pro Israel evangelical  in the west are also big pro oil people. Once that market dies down the meddling in the region will cool and as we already seen in places like UAE and to some extent Qatar there are ruling families that would like to move into other industries and create a more secular and international friendly economies. So I agree we "should stay out of it" but by stay out I mean of all of it which includes their oil and other resources. 

[Ten oz]

Quote

 

Tens of thousands of Palestinians are protesting the opening of the new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem, and Israeli army forces have killed 55 protesters, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. The ministry also says some 2,770 people have been hurt in demonstrations and clashes.

U.S. Dedicates New Embassy In Jerusalem

More than 35,000 people are protesting along the Gaza border, the Israel Defense Forces say. The army says it killed three protesters who were trying to set a bomb next to the security fence in Rafah. It's the most deaths in one day the area has seen since the summer of 2014, when more than 2,000 Palestinians died.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/14/610934534/18-palestinian-protesters-die-gaza-officials-say-as-u-s-opens-jerusalem-embassy

 

[StringJunky]

6 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Quote

 

Tens of thousands of Palestinians are protesting the opening of the new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem, and Israeli army forces have killed 55 protesters, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. The ministry also says some 2,770 people have been hurt in demonstrations and clashes.

U.S. Dedicates New Embassy In Jerusalem

More than 35,000 people are protesting along the Gaza border, the Israel Defense Forces say. The army says it killed three protesters who were trying to set a bomb next to the security fence in Rafah. It's the most deaths in one day the area has seen since the summer of 2014, when more than 2,000 Palestinians died.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/14/610934534/18-palestinian-protesters-die-gaza-officials-say-as-u-s-opens-jerusalem-embassy

 

This is from the Reuters site. I find it really jarring and telling; the contrast.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-protests-palestinians/israeli-military-drops-warning-leaflets-into-gaza-as-border-protests-build-idUSKCN1IF0M8

Edited May 15, 2018 by StringJunky

[iNow]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I find it really jarring and telling; the contrast.  

It’s even worse when shown beside the selfie they decided to take today:

[StringJunky]

44 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s even worse when shown beside the selfie they decided to take today:

51 killed on this day by the Israelis. My commiserations on having such a joke for a president.

[Ten oz]

The move served no strategic purpose. Having an embassy in Jerusalem rather than Telaviv doesn't accomplishes anything logistically. I remember after 9/11 people asking the question out loud "why do they hate us". Now here we are 17yrs later being tone deaf and seemingly crual to the benefit of nothing. It is hard for me to imagine that yesterday didn't just create a recruiting boom for extremists. Maybe today Ivanka and Jared can get some selfies of themselves sun bathing on the roof with eating cake. 

[DrP]

Let me play advocate for a min.   -     If Jerusalem is part if Israel then it is perfectly reasonable for Israel and the US to put their embassy wherever they choose within the country and they need no blessing from Palestine.

Regarding the protest.  Although the guards on the Israeli border way out gun the hoards of advancing protestors - going by past demonstrations many of them could have explosives strapped to them, many have wire cutters which they use to get through the fence into Israel where they can start a killing campaign against Israeli civilians. There were reports of Hamas officials calling for these 'protestors' to rip the hearts out of Israelis once they get across the boarder. Credit where it is due - no one has claimed that this was a peaceful protest as far as I can tell.

These protestors won't be allowed near the fence and know full well that will be shot if they advance on the border. They know this yet they advance in their thousands anyway knowing they will be shot.

 

This being said  -  it was a shit stirring move to put the embassy in Jerusalem and they must have know it would cause a lot of trouble, protest and death. This is what the American people chose though when they installed Trump, an obvious war monger, as their leader.  

 

[Ten oz]

30 minutes ago, DrP said:

This being said  -  it was a shit stirring move to put the embassy in Jerusalem and they must have know it would cause a lot of trouble, protest and death.

Right, lukewarm justifications aside the move was unnecessary and violence as a result of it a forgone conclusion.  

[DrP]

37 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Right, lukewarm justifications aside the move was unnecessary and violence as a result of it a forgone conclusion.  

The fact that violence was a forgone conclusion tells you what about Hamas? As far as I am aware a country can put their capitol and embassies wherever they want. They should be able to do this without their neighbours sending mobs of people with violent intent across the border with the mission of ripping out the hearts of your civilians with their bare hands. 

It says a lot about the holy books of both sides imo  -  destroy that holy of holies site that both sides claim is theirs according to their backward books  - that would prove that both books are BS and people can just live together and move on with their lives in peace and love. All the time they have preachers on both sides telling them they are justified by god to wage war in the area there will never be peace there.    Where is the Love!!??

 

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, DrP said:

The fact that violence was a forgone conclusion tells you what about Hamas? As far as I am aware a country can put their capitol and embassies wherever they want. They should be able to do this without their neighbours sending mobs of people with violent intent across the border with the mission of ripping out the hearts of your civilians with their bare hands. 

It says a lot about the holy books of both sides imo  -  destroy that holy of holies site that both sides claim is theirs according to their backward books  - that would prove that both books are BS and people can just live together and move on with their lives in peace and love. All the time they have preachers on both sides telling them they are justified by god to wage war in the area there will never be peace there.    Where is the Love!!??

 

Your post massively simplifies and distorts the situation. Palistians are not people inhabiting some neighboring country and seeking to invade Israel. They are people who have been there and are increasingly confined to ever less desirable real estate contained within Israel. 

As for the violence, thousands of Palistians were injured and 60 killed, how many Israeli's were hurt or killed yesterday? There is a difference between defending oneself and whipping someones ass. What happened yesterday appears to have been more punitive than defensive. 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

The move served no strategic purpose.

The strategy IMO was about domestic politics, not international security. They were shoring up Support among the evangelical base, not seeking ways to expand shared prosperity and peace. Domestic politics drove this.

2 hours ago, DrP said:

These protestors won't be allowed near the fence and know full well that will be shot if they advance on the border. They know this yet they advance in their thousands anyway knowing they will be shot.

This is a valid point, though perhaps a weak argument. I’m reminded of slavery in the US. The slaves knew they’d be shot if they tried to escape the plantation, yet they still tried. Not a perfect comparison, but hopefully frames the logic you’re using in alight that makes it easier to recognize the flaw. 

2 hours ago, DrP said:

This being said  -  it was a shit stirring move to put the embassy in Jerusalem and they must have know it would cause a lot of trouble, protest and death. This is what the American people chose though when they installed Trump, an obvious war monger, as their leader.

Recall that he lost by 3 million votes (3,000,000), and even within our ridiculous electoral college system only won by 77,000 out of the approximately 240 million eligible voters. Let’s not put this on “the American people” as a whole, please.

44 minutes ago, DrP said:

Where is the Love!!??

It’s worth noting that it’s everywhere, especially among the younger generations AFAIK. That kind of Israeli/Palestinian fellowship and comradery and brotherhood just doesn’t make the news. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by iNow

[DrP]

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

As for the violence, thousands of Palistians were injured and 60 killed, how many Israeli's were hurt or killed yesterday? There is a difference between defending oneself and whipping someones ass. What happened yesterday appears to have been more punitive than defensive. 

How would you suggest they deal with thousands of people, some with bombs strapped to them, all of them calling for blood and death to Israeli people, marching towards your fence without stopping when told to turn around.   Let them through the fence where they can start their murder campaign?  Just sit and see if the fence holds up to their wire cutters?   Come on! I know it is a horrible state of affairs, but what do you do when 10K angry arabs are marching at you demanding your death and that your heart be ripped out?  I do not think they had a choice.  Kill or be killed in that situation.
 

Saying this  -  I wasn't there so I only know what I heard on the Radio this morning and from reading about a bit.

[Raider5678]

On 12/13/2017 at 6:50 AM, Ten oz said:

Then once I actually started following these issue and do my own reading I realized things like there is no evidence Jewish people were ever in Egypt, Palestinians have been in the territory for several hundreds of years,  many of the Jewish people in Israel were actually relocated there from parts of Europe, and etc. 

Then it's a good thing the Jewish people aren't trying to live in Egypt. Why does it matter if there is no evidence Jewish people were ever in Egypt?

Palestinians, while having been in that territory for several hundreds of years, were not the first. But regardless, even then, the last is Israel's. They were given it.

In fact, they were given it when they were "relocated there from parts of Europe". You know. After the Holocaust, and most of the world decided to let Jews have their own country to live in. 

Additionally, that country is not some massive piece of land. It's less than 70% the size of Maryland.

As for the land Israel supposedly "conquered from the Palestinian", you're only told half the story. 

What they didn't tell you is that the Egyptians had more than 100,000 troops there and just under 1,000 tanks, and had just announced to the world they were going to invade Israel and exterminate the Jews.

Israel promptly moved their forces against Egypt and inflicted heavy losses. Sure, you could say it was unprovoked, and then I can say you're blind.

However, while Israel was busy fighting Egyptian forces, Syria and Jordan, two massive countries to the North and East of Israel, both simultaneously invaded as well.

Jordan invaded the west bank, and Syria invaded Golan heights, both supported by the Soviet Union.

Israel managed to respond to over them, and after repelling the more than 100,000 soldiers pouring into their country seized the west bank and East Jerusalem.

All this, with less than 1,000 casualties on the Israeli side. 

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

This is a valid point, though perhaps a weak argument. I’m reminded of slavery in the US. The slaves knew they’d be shot if they tried to escape the plantation, yet they still tried. Not a perfect comparison, but hopefully frames the logic you’re using in alight that makes it easier to recognize the flaw. 

Comparing it to slavery is a terrible comparison.

The Palestinians who were shot are from outside of Israel. Nobody is forcing them to protest, nobody is holding them captive, nobody is forcing them to do anything. 

Israel made it very clear. Do not approach the fence, or we will shoot you. 

They used tear gas and rubber bullets to keep them away from the fence for weeks. Yet they still pushed towards the fence, hurled rocks and whatever else they could find at the Isralies, and called for the death of Israel. Peaceful.

 

When they swarmed the fence, the Israelis opened fire.

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

They are people who have been there and are increasingly confined to ever less desirable real estate contained within Israel. 

This isn't covered by fact. Let's look at all the times they were offered their own state and land. Even Jerusalem. 

• In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed the partition of Palestine and the creation of an Arab state.
• In 1939, the British White Paper proposed the creation of a unitary Arab state.
• In 1947, the UN would have created an even larger Arab state as part of its partition plan.
• The 1979 Egypt-Israel peace negotiations offered the Palestinians autonomy, which would almost certainly have led to full independence.
• The Oslo agreements of the 1990s laid out a path for Palestinian independence, but the process was derailed by terrorism.
• In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank.
• In 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from almost the entire West Bank and partition Jerusalem on a demographic basis.
• In addition from 1948 to 1967, Israel did not control the West Bank. The Palestinians could have demanded an independent state from the Jordanians. On the contrary whilst Jordan was in control Arafat said there was no longer a claim as it was no longer part of Palestine. Once it was back in Israeli hands it miraculously became disputed land again! This is one of many reasons Jews and Israelis are cynical.

 

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

As for the violence, thousands of Palistians were injured and 60 killed, how many Israeli's were hurt or killed yesterday? There is a difference between defending oneself and whipping someones ass. What happened yesterday appears to have been more punitive than defensive. 

So you would propose they do what?

Wait until the protesters were actively killing them before shooting?

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Now here we are 17yrs later being tone deaf and seemingly crual to the benefit of nothing.

Yes.

We're so cruel.

Israel moved THEIR embassy, from inside THEIR country, to another place inside THEIR capital.

Just terrible.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

How would you suggest they deal with thousands of people, some with bombs strapped to them, all of them calling for blood and death to Israeli people, marching towards your fence without stopping when told to turn around.   Let them through the fence where they can start their murder campaign?  Just sit and see if the fence holds up to their wire cutters?   Come on! I know it is a horrible state of affairs, but what do you do when 10K angry arabs are marching at you demanding your death and that your heart be ripped out?  I do not think they had a choice.  Kill or be killed in that situation.
 

Saying this  -  I wasn't there so I only know what I heard on the Radio this morning and from reading about a bit.

You're making a good guy vs bad guy argument to justify one side killing the other in the name of preemptive self defense. I am sorry but the self defense argument doesn't work until one is actually attack. We can talk about what could've happened till the cows come home but what actually did happen is more relevant. The Planastian people are an ethinic minority living within Israel's borders. These are not immigrants who have encroached or relocated to Israel. Simply saying they are bad people and then just strong arming them when they ,predictably ,attempt to assemble advantageous to the peace process. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, Ten oz said:

You're making a good guy vs bad guy argument to justify one side killing the other in the name of preemptive self defense. I am sorry but the self defense argument doesn't work until one is actually attack. We can talk about what could've happened till the cows come home but what actually did happen is more relevant. The Planastian people are an ethinic minority living within Israel's borders. These are not immigrants who have encroached or relocated to Israel. Simply saying they are bad people and then just strong arming them when they ,predictably ,attempt to assemble advantageous to the peace process. 

9

If the self-defense argument doesn't work until one is actually attacked, then it's a good thing Israel was using self-defense.

Because you know. 10k Arabs screaming for the death of Jews started charging the fence, cutting it with wire cutters, throwing rocks at the soldiers, and climbing the fence. That constitutes an attack.

We could talk about your version of it until the cows come home. However, your version doesn't line up with plain fact. The protestors are not people living inside of Israel. The protestors are people living outside of Israel. So why do you keep mentioning there are Palanstinaisn living within Israel's borders? It's painfully obvious that the protestors we're talking about aren't the ones living in Israel.  If the protestors were living in Israel, what are they doing threatening to invade the border?

 

 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

The strategy IMO was about domestic politics, not international security. They were shoring up Support among the evangelical base, not seeking ways to expand shared prosperity and peace. Domestic politics drove this.. 

Right and those Evangelical base their views towards Jerusalem on the Bible and not anything which has actually go on there over the last few hundred years. 

It is better some Christian living in Nebraska gets what they want considering Jerusalem than people who actually live in the region. 

[Raider5678]

 

On 12/10/2017 at 8:07 AM, Ten oz said:

In 2016 Jewish voters went 71% to Clinton and 24% to Trump. In previous elections they voted 79% Obama, 74% Kerry, and 79% Gore. 

2

Perhaps it's because all of them promised to move the Embassy to Jerusalem and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

 

https://ntknetwork.com/hillary-clinton-in-1999-jerusalem-is-eternal-and-indivisible-capital-of-israel/

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-07/what-have-past-presidents-said-about-israel-and-jerusalem/9234736

Edited May 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

35 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Because you know. 10k Arabs screaming for the death of Jews started charging the fence, cutting it with wire cutters, throwing rocks at the soldiers, and climbing the fence. That constitutes an attack.

 

10 thousand screaming Arabs armed with wire cutters and rocks, those poor soldiers, has Isreal stopped giving them bulletproof body armor and guns and tear gas and etc...  

43 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

We could talk about your version of it until the cows come home. However, your version doesn't line up with plain fact. The protestors are not people living inside of Israel. The protestors are people living outside of Israel. So why do you keep mentioning there are Palanstinaisn living within Israel's borders? It's painfully obvious that the protestors we're talking about aren't the ones living in Israel.  If the protestors were living in Israel, what are they doing threatening to invade the border?

1

And that plain fact is, Israel has absolute control over these Palestinians/people, whatever the borders and they use that control to oppress them to the point where charging a tank with nothing but a rock is better than life, as it is, and then using that desperation as an excuse for backdoor genocide; the abused becomes the abuser.