Somalia and Aid?

[interested]

Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is an Irish journalist and writer. He writes for the Irish edition of the Sunday Times, having previously been a columnist for the Irish Independent and a former contributor to The Irish Times, where he wrote the "An Irishman's Diary" opinion column several times weekly. Until 2005, he wrote for the UK Sunday Telegraph.
His articles criticise left-wing opinion and the "liberal consensus", sometimes incorporating hyperbole, sarcasm and parody.
This essay appeared in The Irish Independent:

Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The
current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim.
It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74.
And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.
It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine
relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years.
So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even
feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.

 ...

 

Does any one have an opinion on this article they would like to share or discuss??? It is a controversial view that I had not come across before.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, interested said:

This essay appeared in The Irish Independent:

!

Moderator Note

So it's subject to copyright and you should not have posted the entire article (I have snipped most of it), and you should have included a link to it.

The link at the Independent seems to be dead, so this will suffice

http://africaunauthorised.com/?p=1311

 

[Endy0816]

Main thought is that without stability they definitely won't get anywhere. A number of diseases are also easily thwarted via good governance.

 

During the Irish Potatoe Famine there were also international  relief efforts.

http://irishamerica.com/2009/08/international-relief-efforts-during-the-famine/

Quite a number of Irish Immigrants to the US during that as well.

[tuco]

From the article, I call it a rant:

 

Quote

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron, siring children whenever the whim takes him, and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind. There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic,
social and sexual system but I do not know what it is.

1

There are several rational arguments for foreign aid, one of them is, indeed self-serving as mentioned later, national security. A good number of people living in the described system will try to come over here, Europe, and we will, one way or the other, have to deal with it. So the rational course of action is to try to solve such problem locally. 

Quote

There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this. It will win no friends, and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous, hand wringing, letter writing wrathful individuals, a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O’Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously.

2

Nah, to me its cool story bro.

Quote

 

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision,
poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably
jolly little lives ahead of them. Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity!

But that is not good enough. 

 

Of course its good enough. Maybe not for you but that is not very relevant.

Quote

 

 For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems
which would otherwise have collapsed. It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates’ programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease
is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating. If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts.

Oh good: then what? I know, let them all come here (to Ireland) or America. (not forgetting Australia!)

Yes, that’s an idea.

 

There is no question many foreign aid programs failed to achieve their goals and indeed contributed to the problem described. Perhaps they failed because they were executed with naivety and designed from ignorance. That, however, does not mean foreign aid is an evolutionary disaster nor it means foreign aid should be stopped.

You said it yourself, and I said it myself, it should not be stopped, if for no other reason, simply because letting "them" all come over here is not viable.

Edited December 10, 2017 by tuco

[NortonH]

Aid to Somalia (my former neighbour) is worse than a waste of time.  In fact Aid to Africa is a destructive force. Countries can recover from war but i have yet to see an African country recover from aid.

Has anyone been to Somalia?

If not then I suggest you read some books like Dead Aid by Dambisa Moyo.

 

[John Cuthber]

28 minutes ago, NortonH said:

Aid to Somalia (my former neighbour) is worse than a waste of time. 

What do you propose instead?

An obvious alternative would be mass emigration. Do you think that's a good option?

[NortonH]

Just now, John Cuthber said:

What do you propose instead?

An obvious alternative would be mass emigration. Do you think that's a good option?

I propose that we stop sending aid to Somalia or anywhere else for that matter.

I do not see mass emigration as a solution. I see it as part of the problem and something else we should stop.

It is a drain on the only resource these countries have and, to be honest, the migrants are no great benefit to the countries they migrate to.

I find odd that many people were horrified when I bought some old pot from a dealer in Kabul because I was 'stealing the cultural heritage of Afghanistan' but are quite OK with draining the able bodied and brightest people from third world countries.

eg I met a taxi driver in London who had been a doctor in Sudan. Was that really a net win for the world?

[John Cuthber]

10 hours ago, NortonH said:

I propose that we stop sending aid to Somalia or anywhere else for that matter.

I do not see mass emigration as a solution. I see it as part of the problem and something else we should stop.

It is a drain on the only resource these countries have and, to be honest, the migrants are no great benefit to the countries they migrate to.

I find odd that many people were horrified when I bought some old pot from a dealer in Kabul because I was 'stealing the cultural heritage of Afghanistan' but are quite OK with draining the able bodied and brightest people from third world countries.

eg I met a taxi driver in London who had been a doctor in Sudan. Was that really a net win for the world?

So, you plan to let them starve.

10 hours ago, NortonH said:

Was that really a net win for the world?

 

[interested]

46 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

So, you plan to let them starve.

I thought this thread was dead.

Why should we help anyone.Why should anyone, even consider helping anyone from Somalia or any other 3rd world pais como Somalia. 

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, interested said:

I thought this thread was dead.

Why should we help anyone.Why should anyone, even consider helping anyone from Somalia or any other 3rd world pais como Somalia. 

That’s a very sad thing to hear. People totally lacking in any sense of humanity. 

But apart from that, there are practical benefits. Helping “third world” countries become more prosperous opens up new markets for products, for example. It also reduces the chance of regional instability which can spread and cause global problems. 

And also, as NortonH suggests, it would enable the people who can best help the country, to remain there to get an education and employment  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest

Edited February 28, 2018 by Strange

[John Cuthber]

17 minutes ago, interested said:

I thought this thread was dead.

NortonH resurrected it  to tell us that he has no better proposal than to let people die.

... which seems disappointing.

[NortonH]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

So, you plan to let them starve.

If they are going to starve then we cannot stop them. In the mid-80s all the world virtue signallers got involved in Ethiopia. The huge effort changed nothing. In the end Geldoff said that all he felt he had done was create more starving people.  In any case Somalia is responsible for itself. 

48 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

NortonH resurrected it  to tell us that he has no better proposal than to let people die.

Have you spent any time in Africa? I suspect not. I suggest you take a look one day and you might realise that half of Africas problems are  CAUSED by pampered wealthy western do-gooders virtue signalling and pouring in the welfare drug. Your little Oxfam donation might make you feel warm and fuzzy but it is just contributing to destroying a continent.

I can understand people naively donating twenty years ago but today there is no excuse.

[John Cuthber]

Just now, NortonH said:

If they are going to starve then we cannot stop them.

If we  feed them then they will not stave in the end.

That's the whole point.

And if we throw some education into the mix (especially about contraception) and we also undertake to act as their welfare state rather then their current plan of relying on the goodwill of lots of kids, then we might make some progress.

In the mean time, here is some music.

 

 

[NortonH]

20 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

If we  feed them then they will not stave in the end.

That's the whole point.

And if we throw some education into the mix (especially about contraception)

Really John?
How did that turn out in Ethiopia?
See what Geldoff said, above.

Are you planning on going to Somalia to teach? Paying someone else to do so? And you think your contraception is going to be used? That somehow the locals will dump thousands of years of tradition and be quite fine with a wife who produces no kids?
SURE!!!!!!
Too funny for words!!!!

[beecee]

57 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

If we  feed them then they will not stave in the end.

That's the whole point.

Bingo! Myself and my Mrs sponsor a child through world vision....a little 5 year old boy. $30/month is well worth trying to help people who through no fault of there own, are forced to live in squalor and hunger. Yes, it gives me some consolation and satisfaction that I am at least attempting in a small way to help those through no fault of there own, live in squalor and hunger. That, the last time I heard was a Christian attitude, so perhaps the Pope may have not excommunicated me as I once thought.

There will always be people in this world that maintain the old "f$%# you Jack, I'm alright" attitude, and stoop to find and manufacture any and all excuses why they/we the world should turn a blind eye to such horror. Thank f%^$#@% Christ though, that they are in a minority.

Many such situations are brought about by environmental conditions, and although science is helping in this regard [with better weather forecasting, agricultural improvements via satellites etc]  governments, big business, and individuals can make some improvment in their living conditions. There but for the grace of my magical Spaghetti monster go I.. 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by beecee

[CharonY]

40 minutes ago, NortonH said:

How did that turn out in Ethiopia?

Ethiopia? You mean the country that was the third-poorest in the world with more than half of the people living in poverty about 10 years ago? The country that has seen one of the highest growth rates in GDP averaging 10% in the last decade? The one that managed to reduce the proportion of people living in poverty to 30% by 2011 despite huge regional conflicts? The country where birth rates almost halved (which is a strong indicator of child health)? You mean the country making huge advances despite the vast challenges it faces?

Pretty well, it seems.

[NortonH]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Ethiopia? You mean the country that was the third-poorest in the world with more than half of the people living in poverty about 10 years ago? The country that has seen one of the highest growth rates in GDP averaging 10% in the last decade? The one that managed to reduce the proportion of people living in poverty to 30% by 2011 despite huge regional conflicts? The country where birth rates almost halved (which is a strong indicator of child health)? You mean the country making huge advances despite the vast challenges it faces?

Pretty well, it seems.

And was that because the Western do-gooders went in with their 'aid' or was it, as i suggest above, because the LOCALS sorted out their own problems?

 

I suggest you read up on the 1980's 'aid' epidemic that we inflicted on the country and you will see that all we did was sustain a war. Just we did in Somalia a decade later and in Biafra a couple of decades earlier.

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, NortonH said:

How did that turn out in Ethiopia?

Quite well.

30 minutes ago, NortonH said:

because the LOCALS sorted out their own problems?

 

Many of the problems remain- especially the weather and that's what this thread was initially about.

So, I guess you think it's a coincidence that the things improved shortly after people with money and resources tried to improve them.

 

[CharonY]

9 minutes ago, NortonH said:

And was that because the Western do-gooders went in with their 'aid' or was it, as i suggest above, because the LOCALS sorted out their own problems?

It was conducted to a significant degree with the help of foreign investments and assistance, initially most  from the US (increase by five-fold in the last decade) but increasingly from China. As others have noted, it is not that outside money is harmful in itself as you assert, but rather it is dependent on the form of assistance. Dumping rice and clothes could disrupt the market, and would only be beneficial in the midst of an acute crisis. 

In fact, Ethiopia is still a a large recipient of foreign. However, the nature of aid has changed over time to investing in strategies rather than providing what folks outside think is needed. A large chunk of the help went into funding education, for example.

[NortonH]

Just now, John Cuthber said:

So, I guess you think it's a coincidence that the things improved shortly after people with money and resources tried to improve them.

People with resources and money achieved nothing other than to prolong the war. The situation improved only when Mengistu lost power and escaped to Zimbabwe. 

The weather has nothing to do with it. The problem was the Mengistu government. 

Of course if you want to pat yourself on the back for whatever you think you achieved with your money then knock yourself out.

[John Cuthber]

1 minute ago, NortonH said:

The weather has nothing to do with it.

Meanwhile in reality.

On 12/10/2017 at 12:18 PM, interested said:

The
current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim.
It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74.
And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.

 

[NortonH]

10 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Meanwhile in reality.

Meanwhile Ethiopia had mass starvation during the drought in the 1980's and as reported above is in a rather improved state despite a (serious! worst!) drought in 2018.

So that tells me that the problem was the Mengistu government, not the weather.

 

[John Cuthber]

1 minute ago, NortonH said:

Meanwhile Ethiopia had mass starvation during the drought in the 1980's and as reported above is in a rather improved state despite a (serious! worst!) drought in 2018.

So that tells me that the problem was the Mengistu government, not the weather.

 

Then you are in the wrong thread.

[NortonH]

1 minute ago, John Cuthber said:

Then you are in the wrong thread.

Really? Is this the thread for people who put preconceived ideas ahead of logic and evidence? OK. Thanks for the tip.

[John Cuthber]

Just now, NortonH said:

Really? Is this the thread for people who put preconceived ideas ahead of logic and evidence? OK. Thanks for the tip.

No, you always seem to be in the right thread for that.

This thread is about... well, just read the OP.