Transgender is not scientific [WRONG!]

[Misty]

I'm transgender but I'm into science and there is no proof of this. So it really upsets me personally. What are your thoughts?

[Strange]

No proof of what? More accurately (science doesn’t really do proof) no evidence of what?

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Strange

[Misty]

No evidence of transgenders being real. I've heard one theory that they are not born with enough testosterone or estrogen. But that's pretty much it.

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, Misty said:

No evidence of transgenders being real. I've heard one theory that they are not born with enough testosterone or estrogen. But that's pretty much it.

So, you just arbitrarily elected to be the other gender?

[Strange]

55 minutes ago, Misty said:

I'm transgender

Isn’t that the evidence you are looking for?

I guess you mean is a there any basis for the feelings people have? I would have thought that the fact that people feel they are transgender is the evidence. 

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, Strange said:

Isn’t that the evidence you are looking for?

I guess you mean is a there any basis for the feelings people have? I would have thought that the fact that people feel they are transgender is the evidence. 

I've read of 3 year old boys identifying as girls and still the same by the time they are six, so I think there's a bit more to it than purely elective. One notable quote from a six year old, upon being asked how long they had felt that way: "All my life!".  

Edited December 17, 2017 by StringJunky

[Lord Antares]

17 minutes ago, Strange said:

I guess you mean is a there any basis for the feelings people have? I would have thought that the fact that people feel they are transgender is the evidence. 

You would be the last one I would expect to say that. ''I feel like it so it must be true?''

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I've read of 3 year old boys identifying as girls and still the same by the time they are six, so I think there's a bit more to it than purely elective.

And you've only heard about this after this transgender fad that's been going on. The boy would not even think about this if his parents hadn't been, presumably, bombarding him with this.

But I guess it comes down to how you define gender. I've always thought it was the same as sex. But apparently not. If gender is some arbitrary societal term, then it is nonsensical because gender doesn't exist and therefore transgender doesn't exist. When you say you're transgender, all you are saying is ''I feel like a woman''. There is no evidence against you feeling like a woman. But it doesn't make you one nevertheless.

[swansont]

14 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

You would be the last one I would expect to say that. ''I feel like it so it must be true?''

!

Moderator Note

That's not what he said, so this is moot. Try not to use straw men.

 

14 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

And you've only heard about this after this transgender fad that's been going on. 

!

Moderator Note

Fad? We're not going down this road. 

-- -- -- 

A question was asked about scientific evidence. Answer with scientific evidence.

 

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

There is no evidence against you feeling like a woman. But it doesn't make you one nevertheless.

 

That reminds me of this:

It does bring up a very interesting point, however one wants to describe oneself there are fundamental limits to that description.

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

You would be the last one I would expect to say that. ''I feel like it so it must be true?''

And you've only heard about this after this transgender fad that's been going on. The boy would not even think about this if his parents hadn't been, presumably, bombarding him with this.

But I guess it comes down to how you define gender. I've always thought it was the same as sex. But apparently not. If gender is some arbitrary societal term, then it is nonsensical because gender doesn't exist and therefore transgender doesn't exist. When you say you're transgender, all you are saying is ''I feel like a woman''. There is no evidence against you feeling like a woman. But it doesn't make you one nevertheless.

Intersex people are a fact, that have physical evidence of both genders, so why is it such a stretch to not envisage people who may not have the outer attributes of what they feel they are but are wired cognitively that way?

[Lord Antares]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

That's not what he said, so this is moot. Try not to use straw men.

!

Really? Because he did. His quote: 

40 minutes ago, Strange said:

I would have thought that the fact that people feel they are transgender is the evidence. 

 

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

 

!

Moderator Note

Fad? We're not going down this road. 

-- -- -- 

A question was asked about scientific evidence. Answer with scientific evidence.

 

And I suppose ''because they feel like it'' is all the scientific evidence you need. I did say that gender (at least in the context the others bring it up) is a social construct and therefore, evidence doesn't exist because gender itself doesn't exist. Therefore, there is nothing to talk about here.

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Intersex people are a fact, that have physical evidence of both genders, so why is it such a stretch to not envisage people who may not have the outer attributes of what they feel they are but are wired cognitively that way?

As I said, there are people who feel like they are the other sex. I believe them 100%. But it doesn't make them the other sex. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Lord Antares said:

As I said, there are people who feel like they are the other sex. I believe them 100%. But it doesn't make them the other sex. 

1

But it doesn't mean they can't attain a reasonable facsimile. 

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

Really? Because he did. His quote: 

 

And I suppose ''because they feel like it'' is all the scientific evidence you need. I did say that gender (at least in the context the others bring it up) is a social construct and therefore, evidence doesn't exist because gender itself doesn't exist. Therefore, there is nothing to talk about here.

As I said, there are people who feel like they are the other sex. I believe them 100%. But it doesn't make them the other sex. 

So, a person who tests genetically as a man but has the physiologically identical brain of a woman is a man? This is a thought experiment I'd like you to answer.

[swansont]

19 minutes ago, Lord Antares said:

Really? Because he did. His quote: 

Strange didn't say it was true because he feels like it. People identify as transgender; the phenomenon is observed to exist.

Quote

And I suppose ''because they feel like it'' is all the scientific evidence you need. I did say that gender (at least in the context the others bring it up) is a social construct and therefore, evidence doesn't exist because gender itself doesn't exist. Therefore, there is nothing to talk about here.

I asked that people go out and get some evidence, rather than making vacuous claims. What evidence do you have that it is a social construct?

Quote

As I said, there are people who feel like they are the other sex. I believe them 100%. But it doesn't make them the other sex. 

Doesn't refute it, either, which is why I asked that evidence be presented. (and that's probably a very bad summary of what it means to be transgender)

[Lord Antares]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

So, a person who tests genetically as a man but has the physiologically identical brain of a woman is a man? This is a thought experiment I'd like you to answer.

I've never understood the point of these things. What difference does it make for you to go out of your way to identify as the opposite sex? What do you gain from that? After all, these people very strongly feel that gender is a social construct and a particular gender shouldn't impede one's desire to do things which the opposite gender ''likes to do''. So it is ironic that one wants to ''shift genders'' so that they may enjoy ''male activities'' or ''female activities''.

7 minutes ago, swansont said:

Strange didn't say it was true because he feels like it. People identify as transgender; the phenomenon is observed to exist.

He did. You may or may not be correct, but that's what he said. Whether the phenomenon is observed to exist or not is independent of what he said. So I may be wrong but that doesn't make him right, not in those words he used anyway.

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

Doesn't refute it, either, which is why I asked that evidence be presented. (and that's probably a very bad summary of what it means to be transgender)

Of course it doesn't, but what I feel is often overlooked is that the fact that transgender might actually be legitimate doesn't mean that all of those people who claim to be transgender are transgender. That's my point. That's why I said ''fad''. This has been observed earlier in history but even though people have  identified themselves as that in the 20th century, they were FAR FAR less prominent. Now all of a sudden, everyone is transgender. Does the fact that many autistic people are geniuses necessarily mean that all autistic people are geniuses? Absolutely not.

[iNow]

Interesting combination in this OP.

[Brand new member] introduces [contentious issue] that’s likely to result in [strong feelings] and does so in a way that is both [ambiguous and poorly structured].

Im not saying the OP is a troll, but if they were this approach comes straight from that cookbook. 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Lord Antares said:

Now all of a sudden, everyone is transgender.

 

I'm not...

[Butch]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

No proof of what? More accurately (science doesn’t really do proof) no evidence of what?

 

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Interesting combination in this OP.

[Brand new member] introduces [contentious issue] that’s likely to result in [strong feelings] and does so in a way that is both [ambiguous and poorly structured].

Im not saying the OP is a troll, but if they were this approach comes straight from that cookbook. 

Now I feel foolish... 

[Butch]

Unless you procreate, it doesn't matter. Recreational sex is all about chemistry. Sex is not the only vehicle for pleasing a partner.

[Strange]

2 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

You would be the last one I would expect to say that. ''I feel like it so it must be true?''

What I was trying to get at (not very well because it is difficult) is that, surely, the evidence for people having particular internal feelings or experiences is that they say they do. If someone says they feel happy or can hear voices or are not comfortable in their bodies or whatever then what other evidence should we look for to confirm how they feel. (It is obviously not that simple. As SJ says, you might want to consider how consistently they feel like that.)

I suppose one could look for some sort of neural or biological correlate. I don’t know if any research of that sort has been done. 

2 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

The boy would not even think about this if his parents hadn't been, presumably, bombarding him with this.

So you know the boy in question and exactly how his parents brought him up? Or is it just a wild assumption, based on your own beliefs?

1 hour ago, Lord Antares said:

He did. You may or may not be correct, but that's what he said.

It certainly isn’t what I intended to say. And looking at it, I can’t interpret it like that. 

[Lord Antares]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

What I was trying to get at (not very well because it is difficult) is that, surely, the evidence for people having particular internal feelings or experiences is that they say they do. If someone says they feel happy or can hear voices or are not comfortable in their bodies or whatever then what other evidence should we look for to confirm how they feel. (It is obviously not that simple. As SJ says, you might want to consider how consistently they feel like that.)

But that just brings me to the point that gender (as opposed to sex) is a social construct and doesn't really mean anything. By the same logic, they can certainly state they are the other gender and you can't disprove it since there is no hard science behind ''gender''. It reminds me of those discussions about whether time is real or not. I don't think it's ''real'' or ''unreal''. It just is, whether it's a property of nature of our convenience. It simply depends on how you define it. In the same regard, transgender might or mot not be legitimate. Depends on the semantics. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything concrete.

1 hour ago, Strange said:

It certainly isn’t what I intended to say. And looking at it, I can’t interpret it like that. 

I apologize if I oversimplified your argument.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Lord Antares said:

 Of course it doesn't, but what I feel is often overlooked is that the fact that transgender might actually be legitimate doesn't mean that all of those people who claim to be transgender are transgender. That's my point.  

!

Moderator Note

Then your point is irrelevant to the discussion, and is off-topic. The OP asked for evidence. If you want to discuss whether people misrepresent or fool themselves in this (or any other) way (e.g. hypochondria), start a topic on that. 

 

[Arete]

This is a shameless copypasta largely, but I think conveys the ambiguity of sex and gender in a scientific, evidence based but accessible manner  quite well. 

In a sexual species, you can have females be XX and males be X (insects), you can have females be ZW and males be ZZ (birds), you can have females be females because they developed in a warm environment and males be males because they developed in a cool environment (reptiles), you can have females be females because they lost a penis sword fighting contest (some flatworms), you can have males be males because they were born female, but changed sexes because the only male in their group died (parrotfish and clownfish), you can have males look and act like females because they are trying to get close enough to actual females to mate with them (cuttlefish, bluegills, others), or you can be one of thousands of sexes (slime mold, some mushrooms.)

In humans. You can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y. You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all. And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. 

So yes, gender fluidity does exist and can have many physiological as well as psychological mechanisms. 

[StringJunky]

17 minutes ago, Arete said:

This is a shameless copypasta largely, but I think conveys the ambiguity of sex and gender in a scientific, evidence based but accessible manner  quite well. 

In a sexual species, you can have females be XX and males be X (insects), you can have females be ZW and males be ZZ (birds), you can have females be females because they developed in a warm environment and males be males because they developed in a cool environment (reptiles), you can have females be females because they lost a penis sword fighting contest (some flatworms), you can have males be males because they were born female, but changed sexes because the only male in their group died (parrotfish and clownfish), you can have males look and act like females because they are trying to get close enough to actual females to mate with them (cuttlefish, bluegills, others), or you can be one of thousands of sexes (slime mold, some mushrooms.)

In humans. You can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y. You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all. And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. 

So yes, gender fluidity does exist and can have many physiological as well as psychological mechanisms. 

Interesting. Basically nature is capable of changing sex based on the prevailing needs of a group.