Butch Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 Chadwick noted that a free neutron was extremely unstable, if this is so, should we not immediately shut down Fermi? As we will soon be running out of neutrons.
swansont Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 Shut down Fermi? There aren't a whole lot of free neutrons out there to worry about, relative to the rest of matter.
Endy0816 Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2017 at 3:54 PM, Butch said: Chadwick noted that a free neutron was extremely unstable, if this is so, should we not immediately shut down Fermi? As we will soon be running out of neutrons. Expand There's production too. We basically have an unlimited number. Edited December 20, 2017 by Endy0816
Butch Posted December 20, 2017 Author Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 4:58 PM, Endy0816 said: There's production too. We basically have an unlimited number. Expand You are speaking of star stuff, ok... But the proton and electron star stuff is stable, the neutron is not. Matter in a star is in the form of ionized gas. Nuclei can be fused but what is preventing the decay of the neutron in such an environment.
pavelcherepan Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 9:24 PM, Butch said: Matter in a star is in the form of ionized gas. Nuclei can be fused but what is preventing the decay of the neutron in such an environment. Expand Ionised gas only means that electrons are stripped away from the nucleus. For as long as neutrons are bound to protons in a nucleus, they are very much stable.
Sensei Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2017 at 3:54 PM, Butch said: Chadwick noted that a free neutron was extremely unstable, Expand Free neutron has half-life approximately 10 minutes, and mean-life 15 minutes. That's pretty long in the modern quantum physics standards. On 12/20/2017 at 3:54 PM, Butch said: if this is so, should we not immediately shut down Fermi? As we will soon be running out of neutrons. Expand Free neutrons are made all the time from regular matter.. You can do it at home. Irene Curie got Nobel prize for this. Edited December 20, 2017 by Sensei
Butch Posted December 20, 2017 Author Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 10:06 PM, pavelcherepan said: Ionised gas only means that electrons are stripped away from the nucleus. For as long as neutrons are bound to protons in a nucleus, they are very much stable. Expand What binds a neutral particle to a proton, I am aware of the qm explanation, although I am not expert in that arena... I don't know if I trust quark theory. On 12/20/2017 at 10:15 PM, Sensei said: Free neutron has half-life approximately 10 minutes, and mean-life 15 minutes. That's pretty long in the modern quantum physics standards. Free neutrons are made all the time from regular matter.. You can do it at home. Irene Curie got Nobel prize for this. Expand I am intrigued, can you elaborate?
Endy0816 Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 9:24 PM, Butch said: You are speaking of star stuff, ok... But the proton and electron star stuff is stable, the neutron is not. Matter in a star is in the form of ionized gas. Expand We normally fuse hydrogen isotopes for our neutrons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_generator Neutrons can be captured by atoms, stabilizing them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_capture On 12/20/2017 at 10:15 PM, Sensei said: Free neutron has half-life approximately 10 minutes, and mean-life 15 minutes. That's pretty long in the modern quantum physics standards. Expand I was thinking that too. I wonder what they would make of picosecond half-lives.
Sensei Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2017 at 10:25 PM, Butch said: I am intrigued, can you elaborate? Expand It's described on Wikipedia page about Irene Curie.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irène_Joliot-Curie Basically each stable isotope (and unstable too) have "missing mass-energy" (aka "binding energy"). After supplying it from external source (in Irene Curie experiment it's alpha particle with enough kinetic energy) nucleus has enough mass-energy, and can decay to smaller or bigger elements/isotopes. Edited December 20, 2017 by Sensei
pavelcherepan Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 10:25 PM, Butch said: What binds a neutral particle to a proton Expand Strong nuclear force.
Butch Posted December 20, 2017 Author Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2017 at 10:35 PM, pavelcherepan said: Strong nuclear force. Expand Saw that coming... I don't have a lot of faith in the strong and weak nuclear forces... I fear the momentum of qm has us jumping ahead of ourselves. On 12/20/2017 at 10:34 PM, Sensei said: It's described on Wikipedia page about Irene Curie.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irène_Joliot-Curie Basically each stable isotope (and unstable too) have "missing mass-energy" (aka "binding energy"). After supplying it from external source (in Irene Curie experiment it's alpha particle with enough kinetic energy) nucleus has enough mass-energy, and can decay to smaller or bigger elements/isotopes. Expand She died, I don't think I want to try it at home... Lol. Edited December 20, 2017 by Butch Spelling
Sensei Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2017 at 10:41 PM, Butch said: Saw that coming... I don't have a lot of faith in the strong and weak nuclear forces... I fear the momentum of qm has us jumping ahead of ourselves. Expand You can see particles decays, unstable isotopes decays, by your naked eyes, in Cloud Chamber.. Like this: Strong force theory, and weak force theory, are trying to explain why they're stable, and why sometimes they're unstable.. to just explain what you can see in the above video.. Edited December 20, 2017 by Sensei
pavelcherepan Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 10:41 PM, Butch said: Saw that coming... I don't have a lot of faith in the strong and weak nuclear forces... I fear the momentum of qm has us jumping ahead of ourselves. On 12/20/2017 at 10:34 PM, Sensei said: Expand Oh yeah, this is already Speculations. I guess, you're looking for "alternative science" explanations. How about elves?
Butch Posted December 20, 2017 Author Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 10:45 PM, Sensei said: You can see particles decays, unstable isotopes decays, by your naked eyes, in Cloud Chamber.. Like this: Strong force theory, and weak force theory, are trying to explain why they're stable, and why sometimes they're unstable.. to just explain what you can see in the above video.. Expand Yeah, did this in junior high, thanks for the input. On 12/20/2017 at 10:49 PM, pavelcherepan said: Oh yeah, this is already Speculations. I guess, you're looking for "alternative science" explanations. How about elves? Expand No, I was thinking sister electrons, 2 in deuterium and 3 in tritium that take turns falling through a nucleus composed of only protons. Elves are way to big (as far as wave function goes.).
Sensei Posted December 20, 2017 Posted December 20, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 11:12 PM, Butch said: No, I was thinking sister electrons, 2 in deuterium and 3 in tritium that take turns falling through a nucleus composed of only protons. Expand Electrons can be ejected from atom (ionization), or they can absorb energy and jump to higher energy level than ground state.
Sensei Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 11:12 PM, Butch said: No, I was thinking sister electrons, 2 in deuterium and 3 in tritium that take turns falling through a nucleus composed of only protons. Expand In your model you will have problems explaining beta decay plus (aka "positron emission") in proton-rich isotopes.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission
Butch Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 8:40 AM, Sensei said: In your model you will have problems explaining beta decay plus (aka "positron emission") in proton-rich isotopes.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission Expand When I get to those isotopes, perhaps... However I am currently working my way through H, He, Li and Be. These models should produce the math which will simplify the models of heavier elements and then I shall venture into molecular structure. I am continuing this effort because so far it fits well with the table of elements and isotopes. If I am successful there will be no need for the strong or weak forces and the neutron will not be a particle. If you would care to assist me, I am currently dealing with dimensions and energies in the above mentioned elements and their isotopes. Most of my information comes from the isotope browser app. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details%3Fid%3Diaea.nds.nuclides%26hl%3Den%26referrer%3Dutm_source%3Dgoogle%26utm_medium%3Dorganic%26utm_term%3Disotope%2Bbrowser%2Bapp%26pcampaignid%3DAPPU_1_R807WrGRIYeMjwTV74q4Dg&ved=0ahUKEwjx0MOIsJvYAhUHxoMKHdW3AucQ5YQBCDQwAA&usg=AOvVaw0Pn7BFo7ezQkUFO1EfO6KV
Phi for All Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 On 12/20/2017 at 11:12 PM, Butch said: No, I was thinking sister electrons, 2 in deuterium and 3 in tritium that take turns falling through a nucleus composed of only protons. Expand ! Moderator Note This was a concept you were unable to support in another speculation that was closed. Please don't bring it up as a hijack in this thread.
Butch Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) On 12/21/2017 at 3:08 PM, Phi for All said: ! Moderator Note This was a concept you were unable to support in another speculation that was closed. Please don't bring it up as a hijack in this thread. Expand Ok, anyway I have a problem perhaps you can help with, while the isotope browser app has complete information on charge radius, I can't seem to find a table to reference for atomic radius... On 12/20/2017 at 10:45 PM, Sensei said: You can see particles decays, unstable isotopes decays, by your naked eyes, in Cloud Chamber.. Like this: Strong force theory, and weak force theory, are trying to explain why they're stable, and why sometimes they're unstable.. to just explain what you can see in the above video.. Expand I am currently attempting the same explanation, albeit at a simpler level. Edited December 21, 2017 by Butch Correction
Butch Posted December 21, 2017 Author Posted December 21, 2017 Found a table of atomic radii of the elements http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/AtomicRadius.v.html
John Cuthber Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 3:05 PM, Butch said: When I get to those isotopes, perhaps... However I am currently working my way through H, He, Li and Be. Expand If you have looked at the first few, and got the wrong answer, it's time to stop. On 12/20/2017 at 10:41 PM, Butch said: Saw that coming... I don't have a lot of faith in the strong and weak nuclear forces Expand And that's the wrong answer.
Butch Posted December 22, 2017 Author Posted December 22, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 11:29 PM, John Cuthber said: If you have looked at the first few, and got the wrong answer, it's time to stop. And that's the wrong answer. Expand Not the accepted answer is not the same as the wrong answer... Unless all you can do is teach. Did you know the earth was flat.
swansont Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 5:13 PM, Butch said: Not the accepted answer is not the same as the wrong answer... Unless all you can do is teach. Did you know the earth was flat. Expand The measured answer. If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. Nature has the final say on the correctness of a theory.
Butch Posted December 22, 2017 Author Posted December 22, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 6:52 PM, swansont said: The measured answer. If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. Nature has the final say on the correctness of a theory. Expand If 2 bodies have angular momentum with opposing vectors, the addition of those vectors will always produce a resultant with a lower energy than the highest energy body, deuterium agrees with experiment. First the actual math, then on to use that math on tritium/3he. On 12/21/2017 at 11:29 PM, John Cuthber said: On 12/20/2017 at 10:41 PM, Butch said: Saw that coming... I don't have a lot of faith in the strong and weak nuclear forces Expand And that's the wrong answer. Expand Really has someone measured those forces in an atom?
swansont Posted December 22, 2017 Posted December 22, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 8:53 PM, Butch said: deuterium agrees with experiment. Expand You have to make a specific prediction before you can compare it to experiment and draw this conclusion.
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