Are Humans better Designers than Nature / Evolution !

[EdEarl]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 

My point was more about the seeming, miscomprehension (many examples on this site) about what evolution (biologically) is, which is perpetuated by the OP; a little too pedantic perhaps but this is in speculations, not the lounge.

Nature/evolution has found a solution, it put both eyes on the side of the head.

LOL Recently I've been learning about the Universe as an information processing entity. From that perspective we might consider the program causing these things. I'm not yet ready for that discussion; thus, will say no more about it here. Sorry for my blunder in this context.

[J.C.MacSwell]

We can do better or worse than Nature/Evolution on it's own, but we can't do much without Her on our team.

[Kevin Mulisa Isaya]

On 31/12/2017 at 3:04 PM, Commander said:

When I went out for a walk on the road I felt that IF I HAD AN EYE ON THE BACK OF MY HEAD it would be so wonderful to view what's happening behind me without having to turn around my front Cameras [Eyes]

When I thought further about this I wondered why God or Nature or Our Evolution has not found it neessary to improve upon this.

Of Course there is a Security Risk & Safely of the Eye if situated at the back. Also the processing and display of front & back eyes in a cogent way.

Human Beings have designed many Products with Front & back Cameras & have handled all the necessary Processings in Machines !

If Evolution does take care of this perhaps the additional worry is our Neck & Turning Mechanism will go into Disuse & become stiff eventually !

Just sharing my thoughts !

 

Don't think so, because in nature also we consider human among it

[Commander]

On 1/18/2018 at 4:18 AM, mistermack said:

I think that humans are far better designers than evolution. Evolution works through failure. You produce many more young than you need, and the worst fail, and the better ones succeed. That really wouldn't do if you want to sell smart phones.

In any case, the phone has gone from invention to the modern smart phone in less than 150 years. Evolution would have taken billions of years to do the same thing.

Mind you, the phone has evolved, so you could say that human designers are using evolutionary principles.

A thought comes to me :

If the Stone Age Man and the Bronze Age Man are the Improvements through Evolution So would be the Man holding a Smart Phone [ which his Evolved Brain has creaed ]

Therefore the Designing Skills of Modern Man is Superior but can be attributed to evolution itself !

[Commander]

15 hours ago, Commander said:

A thought comes to me :

If the Stone Age Man and the Bronze Age Man are the Improvements through Evolution So would be the Man holding a Smart Phone [ which his Evolved Brain has created ]

Therefore the Designing Skills of Modern Man is Superior but can be attributed to evolution itself !

 

[DrP]

15 hours ago, Commander said:

A thought comes to me :

If the Stone Age Man and the Bronze Age Man are the Improvements through Evolution So would be the Man holding a Smart Phone [ which his Evolved Brain has creaed ]

Therefore the Designing Skills of Modern Man is Superior but can be attributed to evolution itself !

Whether or not it is superior is debatable as mentioned earlier in the thread (we can't build a self repairing self replicating machine yet...  or if we can I haven't seen one yet...  how are nano bots progressing?).  But as you point out  -  humans ARE part of nature anyway, so anything we design could be attributed to the design and evolution of nature.

[Strange]

15 hours ago, Commander said:

A thought comes to me :

If the Stone Age Man and the Bronze Age Man are the Improvements through Evolution So would be the Man holding a Smart Phone [ which his Evolved Brain has creaed ]

Therefore the Designing Skills of Modern Man is Superior but can be attributed to evolution itself !

There has been, as far as I know, no significant evolution of mental capacities from the Bronze Age, and probably not much from late Stone Age Homo sapiens.  

[DrP]

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

There has been, as far as I know, no significant evolution of mental capacities from the Bronze Age, and probably not much from late Stone Age Homo sapiens.  

I think you are right, but I don't have a reference, I seem to remember reading the same thing several times and seeing similar things said in other threads. Advanced discovery doesn't necessarily mean higher intelligence I suppose  -  standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.  We've had longer to apply our equal intelligence and have invented more stuff.

Edited January 25, 2018 by DrP

[Commander]

3 hours ago, DrP said:

Whether or not it is superior is debatable as mentioned earlier in the thread (we can't build a self repairing self replicating machine yet...  or if we can I haven't seen one yet...  how are nano bots progressing?).  But as you point out  -  humans ARE part of nature anyway, so anything we design could be attributed to the design and evolution of nature.

I believe Evolution is both on Hardware & Software just like with any Product Redesign.

Any change visible on the physique and exterior form is linked with Evolutionary changes but the changes in DNA etc resulting in higher Mental [Software] Capability of the Progeny is hard to trace or Register & we tend to ignore Software Evolution.

Of Course we live in a very KNOWLEDGEABLE PHASE of the Life of Earth & Human Beings in that the past 150 Years stand for EVERY BIT OF OUR KNOWHOW OR ACHIEVEMENTS !

When I was a young Boy my Grandfather told me one day that he saw on the Market Place a small Box mounted on a Post giving out Songs and speeches & he asked me why dont we buy something like that and mount it on this tree [he pointed to a tree on our home front]. It must have been a Radio or Loudspeaker he must have seen. He did not perhaps understand the need of Wiring & Electricity involved.

Today my 2 Yr Old Grandson lazes on a Sofa holding away his Dad's Smartphone on his hand watching some Game/Video or Program. He is engrossed and tries to avoid disturbances but does answer Queastions asked to him. Now and then he clicks a button which might speed dial my mobile.

Almost every Electronic Progress has happened between these two Points in Time.

It is mind boggling to note that our ability to view and preserve evidences is limited too.

No one has seen the True Picture [Photograph] of any Living Being [Humans included] say a 5000 years old. [may be 200 yrs back is the limit]. We may have to depend on paintings and arts.

Lot of people who question Darwin [ Did you see Monkey turning into Man ] and the Evolutionary Process which take Millions of years would perhaps find it interesting to observe some minute differences between  a Man 5000 yrs back & the one of current date and get a glimpse of Evolution in operation if we had real pictures but alas we did not have that capability.

Equally evolved as we are WE ARE NOT SURE OF HOW TO LEAVE UNDESTRUCTIBLE EVIDENCE OF US & OUR TRUTHS to any future Life, Species , Aliens  who can CORRECTLY KNOW ABOUT US in case Humanity passes into Oblivion !

We have here in India a FOOLISH MINISTER of the Govt [in charge of Education] claiming that Darwin Theory is false & he wants to remove it from School Books & Curriculum !

There we are !

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, Commander said:

I believe Evolution is both on Hardware & Software just like with any Product Redesign.

 

(sigh) I stopped reading at this point, in protest, because you clearly haven't read a single post on a thread you started

[DrP]

34 minutes ago, Commander said:

Of Course we live in a very KNOWLEDGEABLE PHASE of the Life of Earth & Human Beings in that the past 150 Years stand for EVERY BIT OF OUR KNOWHOW OR ACHIEVEMENTS !

..........

Almost every Electronic Progress has happened between these two Points in Time.

Yes...  but would we wouldn't have gotten to inventing anything modern or any electronics at all without the invention of the wheel thousands of years before...  because the wheel made better trade and travel possible....  which further enhanced our communication abilities and so on which enabled shared ideas and education etc...    The wheel wouldn't have been invented without the axe already being invented thousands of years before that....  because you need an axe to make a wheel...  also for defence maybe...  what is the point of a wheel if it is too dangerous to travel anywhere? ...  so, just because we came up with all of our most complex ideas in the last few centuries, doesn't mean those that lived 400 years ago were not as intelligent or didn't have the capacity to understand what we now take for granted. It would have taken many centuries of having and using the wheel and then developing society to a point where it was even possible to contemplate electricity and the nature of reality.

The evolution of our technology is like the evolution of our life...   takes a long time, but with sudden 'breakthroughs' we see fast developments. All of our most complex inventions are all in the last few seconds of the year comparing a year to when time began...  it is the same with the complex life forms...  we've been here for a few seconds compared to the length of time taken for us to develop.

34 minutes ago, Commander said:

Lot of people who question Darwin [ Did you see Monkey turning into Man ] and the Evolutionary Process which take Millions of years would perhaps find it interesting to observe some minute differences between  a Man 5000 yrs back & the one of current date and get a glimpse of Evolution in operation if we had real pictures but alas we did not have that capability.

  This is because people don't understand evolution. Monkeys never turned into men... no one ever claimed that they did except people who don't understand how it works.  Monkeys and Men both developed from the same common ANCESTER...  they share an ancestor...  they didn't change from one to the other. This is well known.

PS - also - not ALL of our learning comes from the past 150 years....  Isaac Newton? Heard of him?  Do you know the phrase "Standing on the shoulders of giants"?

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by DrP
the PS.

[Commander]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

Yes...  but would we wouldn't have gotten to inventing anything modern or any electronics at all without the invention of the wheel thousands of years before...  because the wheel made better trade and travel possible....  which further enhanced our communication abilities and so on which enabled shared ideas and education etc...    The wheel wouldn't have been invented without the axe already being invented thousands of years before that....  because you need an axe to make a wheel...  also for defence maybe...  what is the point of a wheel if it is too dangerous to travel anywhere? ...  so, just because we came up with all of our most complex ideas in the last few centuries, doesn't mean those that lived 400 years ago were not as intelligent or didn't have the capacity to understand what we now take for granted. It would have taken many centuries of having and using the wheel and then developing society to a point where it was even possible to contemplate electricity and the nature of reality.

The evolution of our technology is like the evolution of our life...   takes a long time, but with sudden 'breakthroughs' we see fast developments. All of our most complex inventions are all in the last few seconds of the year comparing a year to when time began...  it is the same with the complex life forms...  we've been here for a few seconds compared to the length of time taken for us to develop.

  This is because people don't understand evolution. Monkeys never turned into men... no one ever claimed that they did except people who don't understand how it works.  Monkeys and Men both developed from the same common ANCESTER...  they share an ancestor...  they didn't change from one to the other. This is well known.

PS - also - not ALL of our learning comes from the past 150 years....  Isaac Newton? Heard of him?  Do you know the phrase "Standing on the shoulders of giants"?

 

Hi,

Yes, the number like 150 yrs which I quoted was with respect to the high tech inventions such as Automobiles Flying in the air Photographing etc and the number of years was given in a figurative way.

I agree Growth of Science has gone on from long way back & Sir Isaac Newton is a Great [perhaps the greatest] Contributor to our Knowledge base.

I agree with you. People who oppose Evolution put their Questions that way & don't visualize the Evolutionary Process correctly !

[DrP]

1 minute ago, Commander said:

...Growth of Science has gone on from long way back & Sir Isaac Newton is a Great [perhaps the greatest] Contributor to our Knowledge base.

My point is though that there was nothing special about him - he was just a man. He said so himself. He wouldn't have reached his theory and discoveries without the centuries of work that had gone on before him. (Thus the famous "Standing on the shoulders of Giants" quote).

Necessity is a driver too for invention...  In the distant past the drive was to protect your family group from wild animals and to provide enough food. The last few millennia have been driven by very competitive races to win status and power in the civilized world globally.

[Moontanman]

has anyone considered how existing computer programs that mimic evolution design things like airplanes faster and better than piecemeal engineering? 

4 hours ago, DrP said:

 

  This is because people don't understand evolution. Monkeys never turned into men... no one ever claimed that they did except people who don't understand how it works.  Monkeys and Men both developed from the same common ANCESTER...  they share an ancestor...  they didn't change from one to the other. This is well known.

PS - also - not ALL of our learning comes from the past 150 years....  Isaac Newton? Heard of him?  Do you know the phrase "Standing on the shoulders of giants"?

 

That is a little misleading dude, the ancestors we evolved from (that we shared with modern monkeys) if they existed today would be recognised as monkeys. In fact it can be asserted that we are still monkeys, you never grow out of your ancestry. We are descended from synapsids: thjis in fact is an example of what our ancestors looked like after our line separated from reptiles:

  The idea is that modern monkeys are not our ancestors anymore than my first cousin is my ancestor...  Yes, we do stand on the shoulders of giants, that is very important...

Edited January 25, 2018 by Moontanman
accuracy

[Commander]

16 hours ago, dimreepr said:

(sigh) I stopped reading at this point, in protest, because you clearly haven't read a single post on a thread you started

Hi dimreepr

Nice to hear from you.

However not nice to see you sigh !

I don't see my friend imatfaal anywhere for a while 

How come ?

[Strange]

22 hours ago, Commander said:

Lot of people who question Darwin [ Did you see Monkey turning into Man ] and the Evolutionary Process which take Millions of years would perhaps find it interesting to observe some minute differences between  a Man 5000 yrs back & the one of current date and get a glimpse of Evolution in operation if we had real pictures but alas we did not have that capability.

We do have some evidence of evolution in modern man. For example, the ability to drink milk as an adult has evolved (multiple times, in different ways) in about the last 10,000 years.

 

17 hours ago, Moontanman said:

That is a little misleading dude, the ancestors we evolved from (that we shared with modern monkeys) if they existed today would be recognised as monkeys. In fact it can be asserted that we are still monkeys, you never grow out of your ancestry.

Apes.

[Moontanman]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

We do have some evidence of evolution in modern man. For example, the ability to drink milk as an adult has evolved (multiple times, in different ways) in about the last 10,000 years.

 

Apes.

 Apes are a subset of monkeys and evolved from them, since we are apes we are also monkeys...

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 Apes are a subset of monkeys and evolved from them, since we are apes we are also monkeys...

Apes and monkeys are primates, but apes are not a subset of monkeys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate

[Moontanman]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Apes and monkeys are primates, but apes are not a subset of monkeys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate

Can you clarify that, I admit I used the term monkey incorrectly but since apes did indeed evolve from primates is we are all primates more accurate? 

[swansont]

Just now, Moontanman said:

Can you clarify that, I admit I used the term monkey incorrectly but since apes did indeed evolve from primates is we are all primates more accurate? 

Yes, we are all primates. Monkey and apes are in the same suborder. But some splitting occurs (new world vs old world monkeys) at the infraorder level. (It's all in the link)

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Can you clarify that, I admit I used the term monkey incorrectly but since apes did indeed evolve from primates is we are all primates more accurate? 

I share a common ancestor with squirrels, but that doesn't mean humans are a subset of squirrels. Likewise, apes and monkeys share common ancestors, but one is not a subset of the other in the way you've implied. They're distinct and independent branches. Sure... they both lead back to the same tree, but that's not how you phrased it.

[DrP]

On ‎25‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Moontanman said:

We are descended from synapsids: thjis in fact is an example of what our ancestors looked like after our line separated from reptiles:

...     I have some Dimetrodon bones in my fossil collection.   Mainly frill pieces, but some limb bits as well.  I also have some bits of a similar Permian age human ancestor...  I'll have to look it up later...  I think it is called Erythrops or something like that. Similar looking creature, a bit chunkier and without the frill. Looks a little like the Sphenacodon in your picture above.

 

[TakenItSeriously]

Over enough time they should converge to both be optimal designs. Take the human brain which is about as complex a design of nature your going to get and the modern PC, the analogies were probably terrible with the first PCs, but as the PC improves its efficiency, the analogies work better and better.

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, TakenItSeriously said:

Over enough time they should converge to both be optimal designs. Take the human brain which is about as complex a design of nature your going to get and the modern PC, the analogies were probably terrible with the first PCs, but as the PC improves its efficiency, the analogies work better and better.

It's not just a matter of time, for humans, it's also a matter of continuity, for instance, human society is balanced precariously ATM a simple nudge could spell disaster for that continuity; whilst several mass-extinction events have not stopped evolutions contiguous march.