NY files suit against oil companies.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Gasoline may end up being more expensive, but that just makes alternatives more attractive.

And this was part of the deception all along. In the US, gas is subsidized by every taxpayer, even those who don't own cars. And our gas was always far cheaper than it was in Europe, and we guzzled where they sipped. The oil companies argue they help keep the prices at the pump down, the average taxpayer is happy to have his fellow citizens share those costs, and the market for oil gets abnormally, hideously skewed in the industry's favor. Pressures that other industries normally feel were removed from oil, and that guaranteed that alternatives wouldn't hold the same attraction they did for Europe.

38 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Solar panels are less expensive than coal or oil fired power plans in some locations. Anything that increases the price will make renewable power a better option for more locations.

Actually, I think the solar issue needs to be addressed by the public, rather than allowing it to be privately manipulated as a cheaper option to oil. Building a solar and wind infrastructure will be expensive to begin with and will most certainly attract private contractors, but once it's in place, the electricity generated is too cheap to attract private investors. Solar and wind systems have no reclamation costs, and their maintenance is also much less than fossil fuel systems. If we want cheap electricity, I think we need to buy back our utilities and run them publicly moving forward. 

[EdEarl]

8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Actually, I think the solar issue needs to be addressed by the public, rather than allowing it to be privately manipulated as a cheaper option to oil. Building a solar and wind infrastructure will be expensive to begin with and will most certainly attract private contractors, but once it's in place, the electricity generated is too cheap to attract private investors. Solar and wind systems have no reclamation costs, and their maintenance is also much less than fossil fuel systems. If we want cheap electricity, I think we need to buy back our utilities and run them publicly moving forward. 

Here the electric utility is run by the city, and is about to fund another 5MW of solar. I agree Phi.

[MigL]

Yeah, I'm blaming the victim again Phi.
Don't confuse the people of NY, the actual victims, with the government of NY, which has filed the lawsuit.
On gasoline taxes alone, the government has raked in billions if not trillions of dollars, and now, just like others did with lawsuits against tobacco companies, they attempt to 'suck and blow' at the same time.

This is not commentary on the oil companies ( I have some choice words and opinions about them also, I assure you ), it strictly concerns the people who thought it was a good idea to file this lawsuit, while being collaborators, and beneficiaries of profits from oil companies for the last 100 yrs.
They were all for the revenue, but don't want the responsibility of the end result ?

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Here the electric utility is run by the city, and is about to fund another 5MW of solar. I agree Phi.

 

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Actually, I think the solar issue needs to be addressed by the public, rather than allowing it to be privately manipulated as a cheaper option to oil. Building a solar and wind infrastructure will be expensive to begin with and will most certainly attract private contractors, but once it's in place, the electricity generated is too cheap to attract private investors. Solar and wind systems have no reclamation costs, and their maintenance is also much less than fossil fuel systems. If we want cheap electricity, I think we need to buy back our utilities and run them publicly moving forward. 

Perhaps the long term solution is more towards decentralized power generation as large capacity storage becomes feasible and affordable.

[EdEarl]

There are several industries sucking 50+ year old tits; they are way past the age to wean.

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

 

Perhaps the long term solution is more towards decentralized power generation as large capacity storage becomes feasible and affordable.

As petroleum transportation declines, we will need more electricity. We will need both decentralized and centralized power to meet the demands for green power.

[Alex_Krycek]

16 hours ago, MigL said:

Yeah, I'm blaming the victim again Phi.
Don't confuse the people of NY, the actual victims, with the government of NY, which has filed the lawsuit.
On gasoline taxes alone, the government has raked in billions if not trillions of dollars, and now, just like others did with lawsuits against tobacco companies, they attempt to 'suck and blow' at the same time.

This is not commentary on the oil companies ( I have some choice words and opinions about them also, I assure you ), it strictly concerns the people who thought it was a good idea to file this lawsuit, while being collaborators, and beneficiaries of profits from oil companies for the last 100 yrs.
They were all for the revenue, but don't want the responsibility of the end result ?

What are you suggesting?  Should the government never have required the oil companies to pay taxes?  And if they do, they are somehow complicit in all the wrongs, abuses, and overreach that the oil industry has caused over the decades?  As StringJunky has pointed out, there must be some level of cooperation between the government and the oil industry, as fossil fuels have been the cheapest and most accessible form of energy for a long time (not to that mention our entire infrastructure is developed around it).  How much cooperation there should be is up for debate, and at this juncture I believe the government should be assuming a more dominant / proactive role with respect to this industry as we transition away from oil.  But to tar and feather the government as equally culpable simply because they gained tax revenue from one of the most profitable private sector industries is a bridge too far.  And to say that the government shouldn't have any authority at this stage in the relationship simply because of a past history of cooperation is illogical.   

Edited January 16, 2018 by Alex_Krycek

[MigL]

That's one way of looking at things, sure...

The other way, is that Governments have made very hefty profits off of gasoline taxes, and are in a sense almost in collusion.
Government's revenues go up with increasing prices, so its a win/win for them; but they go to zero if we completely transition away from fossil fuels.
( watch taxes rise on electricity prices )
Have you noticed the subsidies governments give to Big Oil ?
Then they pretend righteousness by launching a lawsuit ?

They do this with tobacco companies, and here in Canada, with beer/liquor, , Government run gambling, in the form of Casinos and lotteries, and the newest income stream addiction, legalized pot, but only available taxed and through Government outlets.

Or maybe I'm just becoming more and more cynical.

Edited January 16, 2018 by MigL

[Phi for All]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

That's one way of looking at things, sure...

The other way, is that Governments have made very hefty profits off of gasoline taxes, and are in a sense almost in collusion.

There's no profit involved when the revenue collected has to go back into maintaining roads and cleaning up pollution. And the subsidies aren't "given" to Big Oil, they've purchased the legislation through lobbying. 

You know, the government is a tool. You shouldn't blame the knife because ruthless people use it to kill you. Maybe the knife is in the wrong hands.

[MigL]

I don't know what the roads are like where you live Phi, but here in Canada they are terrible and in severe need of repairs. Across the border in Niagara Falls and Buffalo they are ten times worse, and the bridges are held up by rust. Most taxes collected from gasoline goes to general revenues and portioned out to 'pet' causes.

And the revenues generated by the taxes I mentioned above, adversely affect the lower middle class and the poor.
And Governments rely more and more on these revenue streams ( sin taxes ? ).

I would have thought you'd see that as a bad thing.

And, as always, I'm just providing an alternate viewpoint.

Edited January 16, 2018 by MigL

[EdEarl]

When someone slams the till drawer, I'd expect to sever a few hundred fingers, and most will get away clean.

[iNow]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't know what the roads are like where you live Phi, but here in Canada they are terrible and in severe need of repairs.

They’d not even exist were it not for those who appreciate the power of shared resources; the group lift that is the cooperative effort of taxation. You’re like a lady running down the street with a ham under each arm complaining because she has no bread.

I, too, am confused and disappointed by your point that the government cannot/should not step in to help... to impose consequences... because at some point they received revenues from O&G companies just as they did for every single other type of business in operation. It’s ridiculous and insulting to my intelligence in the extreme. 

[MigL]

I guess you would be insulted if you're convinced your viewpoint is the only one that matters.

Tell you what, why don't you give all your income to the Government, since they know what to do with it better than you.
I hear your President need funds to finance a tax cut for his wealthy friends.

( I'm just being facetious, iNow, since you were a little pompous with your last comment )

[iNow]

So, you concede your point is ridiculous?

[StringJunky]

I find myself lost now. Can someone fill me in? Regardless of the motivations of the fossil energy industries they have been essential to the functioning of the world up until some point in the foreseeable future. With the NY case, I see the hand that has fed them with the means to fuel society for 100-odd years now being bitten. It seems to me that people are losing sight of the wood for the trees.

[Alex_Krycek]

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I find myself lost now. Can someone fill me in? Regardless of the motivations of the fossil energy industries they have been essential to the functioning of the world up until some point in the foreseeable future. With the NY case, I see the hand that has fed them with the means to fuel society for 100-odd years now being bitten. It seems to me that people are losing sight of the wood for the trees.

That's the thing though.  Oil has been too essential.  Any inroads into the development of alternative energy sources during the 20th century were stamped out in favor of greed and the status quo.  People couldn't see outside of the oil bubble.  And so we polluted the Earth, disrupted the climate, and fueled an industrial revolution that has been responsible for catastrophic wars, weapons of mass destruction, and hundreds of millions of deaths.

We've been addicted to the black stuff for a century, and now like a junkie who stumbles out of an alleyway into the path of an oncoming truck, we are about to reap the consequences... 

 

[MigL]

Not at all, iNow, because your viewpoint is not the only one that matters.

If we're the addicts, and oil companies the pushers, then Governments are the corrupt policemen who turned a blind eye to the problem because they were/are on the take.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

Not at all, iNow, because your viewpoint is not the only one that matters.

If we're the addicts, and oil companies the pushers, then Governments are the corrupt policemen who turned a blind eye to the problem because they were/are on the take.

I think we can narrow that down a bit. There are many countries that have long taxed petroleum products rather significantly, and countries that are acting strongly to mitigate the effects that their use has. We have one country in particular — the leading producer per capita of CO2 — where one political party has been "on the take" with regard to this problem.

[EdEarl]

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I find myself lost now. Can someone fill me in? Regardless of the motivations of the fossil energy industries they have been essential to the functioning of the world up until some point in the foreseeable future. With the NY case, I see the hand that has fed them with the means to fuel society for 100-odd years now being bitten. It seems to me that people are losing sight of the wood for the trees.

People are fickle. I think people now see the oil and coal industry as having done a good job, but now they are causing as much or more harm than good. We have a more realistic vision of what's happening. It is now time to get rid of the smoke and smog in favor of greener energy.

 

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

People are fickle. I think people now see the oil and coal industry as having done a good job, but now they are causing as much or more harm than good. We have a more realistic vision of what's happening. It is now time to get rid of the smoke and smog in favor of greener energy.

I think some people see this is just another example of companies acting in their own self-interest, and acting unethically while doing so. The former is expected. The latter is inexcusable.

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

People are fickle. I think people now see the oil and coal industry as having done a good job, but now they are causing as much or more harm than good. We have a more realistic vision of what's happening. It is now time to get rid of the smoke and smog in favor of greener energy.

 

I agree with that absolutely. It is paramount that we do. The thing is, people are saying we should have done this decades ago but the means to do so is only now emerging into feasibility. The only way it could have been done it before was large-scale nuclear but, apart from France, no one was interested or influential enough to get it done.

Edited January 16, 2018 by StringJunky

[EdEarl]

11 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I agree with that absolutely. It is paramount that we do. The thing is, people are saying we should have done this decades ago but the means to do so is only now emerging into feasibility. The only way it could have been done before was large-scale nuclear but, apart from France, no one was interested.

Instead of suppressing research into battery, wind and solar technology, US companies could have developed the technology and be in the forefront both scientifically and economically. Instead, our educational systems have been under attack, weakened, and research under funded. Capitalists have become powerful and their selfish interests are working towards eliminating the good nature of the Earth. Rapid changes are occurring, and we are not in control.

Edited January 16, 2018 by EdEarl

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Instead of suppressing research into battery, wind and solar technology, US companies could have developed the technology and be in the forefront both scientifically and economically. Instead, our educational systems have been under attack, weakened, and research under funded. Capitalists have become powerful and their selfish interests are working towards eliminating the good nature of the Earth. Rapid changes are occurring, and we are out of control.

Fortunately, that is now falling out of the hands of US businesses with the controls being taken over by Asian concerns. I specifically follow eastern Asian news, along with western stuff, now and they are moving fast.

Edited January 16, 2018 by StringJunky

[EdEarl]

Fortunate for the Asians and fortunate someone is developing the technologies, but dangerously late for climate change management. The powers in the US have done a poor job of running the world, and they continue to make bad decisions.

[iNow]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

I guess you would be insulted if you're convinced your viewpoint is the only one that matters.

 

10 hours ago, MigL said:

Not at all, iNow, because your viewpoint is not the only one that matters.

Oh, come off it. At no place did I state or suggest otherwise. Disagree? There's a handy quote feature available for you to evidence your point.

More to the topic... It's somewhat amazing how we let localized quarterly profits out-prioritize long-term health and well-being. For all our talk of being an advanced species, we really do act like a bunch of tribal monkeys unconcerned about the coming winter.

[EdEarl]

Unfortunately, the call to make our country strong again, which which suggests we reset the laws and culture back a few decades, is completely impossible, no matter how strong nostalgia appeals. For us, time travels only one direction. However screwed up things get, we can only work with the current state of the world and try to repair damage as we go forward.

China and other countries are moving towards renewable energy quickly, but they are still selling coal power plants to countries that need electricity. Around a 100 giga factories need to be built to provide solar power for the world, according to Elon Musk. A few are in progress AFAIK; I assume there are some unknown, too.  I believe we are a decade away from having enough. I think we will also need to build CO2 sequestration plants on a massive scale; perhaps grow algae and let it fall to the ocean floor.