U.S. Immigration

[Ten oz]

The primary sticking point for Congress passing a budget is securing an agreement for the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Through DACA 800,000 people have been living in the U.S. with work permit working and going to school since 2012. To be eligible for DACA one had to have lived in the U.S. continuously since 2007 , arrived in the U.S. younger than 16yrs of age, have no criminal record, and were enrolled in or graduated from High school here in the United States. Requests to be protected by DACA had to be made through Immigration services. The President and majority of Republicans want DACA ended, all 800,000 deported, and money to start building a physical wall across the Mexican boarder. Democrats are fighting for a deal to continue the protections for those coverage by DACA and do not want any money to go towards a wall. 

I have followed politics for decades. Immigration only became a divisive partisan issue in the last 10yrs or so. In 1986 Reagan gave amnesty to everyone who had been in the country since 1982 as part of his Immigration Reform Act; 3 million people. Bush unsuccessfully fought for a guest worker program which would have provided immigrants a pathway to citizenship. Bush also authorized the 200,000 refugees from El Salvador into the country legally that the Trump admin is now attempting to deport. Among both parties the debate use to be about security and waiting in line. Everyone agreed immigration was inherently good for the nation as the U.S. was a nation of immigrants. Those who pushed against more protections for undocumented immigrants did so from a position that those immigrants had bypassed the legal system. In 2018 the nature of debate has greatly changed. Those who came here legally as refugees from Haiti and El Salvador are being asked to leave. The military has suspended the Military Accessions Vital to National Interest (MAVNI) program which enabled immigrants to legally become citizens in trade for service. The Presidents travel ban seeks to limit the ability of targeted Muslim groups to legally travel to the U.S. It appears that Republicans do not care whether immigrants are legal or illegal anymore. The goal simply seems to be less immigration period.

Is immigration inherently good; is the U.S. a nation of immigrants? Should the Democratic party fight for the 800,000 people protected by DACA? Is race the primary driver of the Republicans current hard line on immigration; we just need more people from Norway as POTUS suggested? In this environment are there anyways to meet in the middle?

 

[Phi for All]

The whole US is "a nation of immigrants" stance was always an emotional argument, and worked well until a stronger emotional argument rose up to unseat it. We need to see the reasonable approach, that immigration helps a nation stay healthy. Many immigrants create jobs rather than merely fill them. They often have just the skills we need (too many engineers in their origin country, f'rinstance). A healthy immigration policy actually raises the average wage for all workers. 

Republicans have been focusing the fear on "unworthy" immigrants and hinting to their base that we're in danger of letting a lot of terrorists through a system they've largely been in charge of for quite some time. They lie about immigrants stealing jobs from native workers. They prey on marginal behavior and events, and use the media to make their concerns seem rampant and overpowering. Many studies have shown the truth about immigration, that it's a necessary part of modern global existence. 

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2010/august/effect-immigrants-us-employment-productivity/

Quote

The U.S. economy is dynamic, shedding and creating hundreds of thousands of jobs every month. Businesses are in a continuous state of flux. The most accurate way to gauge the net impact of immigration on such an economy is to analyze the effects dynamically over time. Data show that, on net, immigrants expand the U.S. economy’s productive capacity, stimulate investment, and promote specialization that in the long run boosts productivity. Consistent with previous research, there is no evidence that these effects take place at the expense of jobs for workers born in the United States.

 

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

is the U.S. a nation of immigrants?

Entire world is world of immigrants.. The only question is "how many generations ago?"...

ps. I was not talking only about humans..

Edited January 19, 2018 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Is immigration inherently good; is the U.S. a nation of immigrants? Should the Democratic party fight for the 800,000 people protected by DACA? Is race the primary driver of the Republicans current hard line on immigration; we just need more people from Norway as POTUS suggested? In this environment are there anyways to meet in the middle?

 

Is that what you intended with this topic? It seems, at least, in the UK that immigration is often conflated with refugee's .

Edited January 19, 2018 by dimreepr

[EdEarl]

Immigration is an emotional issue that divides people into groups that have less power than all of us together. As such, it is being used by the Republicans to stay in power. As Phi said, the US is a nation of immigrants. As Sensei said, the whole world is full of immigrants. As DNA shows, we are all human and there are no races. Our current battle is with politicians and the people who bribe them legally. That law is immoral as is racism. Damn propaganda!

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, EdEarl said:

Immigration is an emotional issue that divides people into groups that have less power than all of us together. As such, it is being used by the Republicans to stay in power. As Phi said, the US is a nation of immigrants. As Sensei said, the whole world is full of immigrants. As DNA shows, we are all human and there are no races. Our current battle is with politicians and the people who bribe them legally. That law is immoral as is racism. Damn propaganda!

It does seem to be an emotional issue; legal immigration is seen as a benefit to society (with no means to judge) whilst illegal immigration is seen as a drain on society (with no means to judge).

[EdEarl]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It does seem to be an emotional issue; legal immigration is seen as a benefit to society (with no means to judge) whilst illegal immigration is seen as a drain on society (with no means to judge).

A criminal is likely to create trouble whether they come in legally or illegally. However, a Dr. who comes into the US without papers cannot practice medicine; thus, the US cannot benefit from that skilled person. I think the laws are biased towards causing more trouble than good.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, EdEarl said:

 I think the laws are biased towards causing more trouble than good.

 

Agreed...

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Is that what you intended with this topic? It seems, at least, in the UK that immigration is often conflated with refugee's .

Yes, I am trying to focus on whether or not immigration is and has been good for the U.S.

[dimreepr]

Just now, Ten oz said:

Yes, I am trying to focus on whether or not immigration is and has been good for the U.S.

Then the answer is a confident 'yes' if you think money is the answer...

[EdEarl]

If it weren't for immigration, Trump would not be president.

If it weren't for immigration, 90% of native Americans would not have died from European diseases.

Edited January 19, 2018 by EdEarl

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

The whole US is "a nation of immigrants" stance was always an emotional argument, and worked well until a stronger emotional argument rose up to unseat it. We need to see the reasonable approach, that immigration helps a nation stay healthy. Many immigrants create jobs rather than merely fill them. They often have just the skills we need (too many engineers in their origin country, f'rinstance). A healthy immigration policy actually raises the average wage for all workers. 

Republicans have been focusing the fear on "unworthy" immigrants and hinting to their base that we're in danger of letting a lot of terrorists through a system they've largely been in charge of for quite some time. They lie about immigrants stealing jobs from native workers. They prey on marginal behavior and events, and use the media to make their concerns seem rampant and overpowering. Many studies have shown the truth about immigration, that it's a necessary part of modern global existence. 

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2010/august/effect-immigrants-us-employment-productivity/

 

Like other western countries the birth rate in the U.S. In 2017 fertility rates reached record lows. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/health/united-states-fertility-rate.html

The U.S. economy and the global stock markets are centered around growth models. Without increases in customers across the board (agriculture, electronics, education, etc) markets begin to fail. Immigration is vital to the U.S. economy as they help grow the population which in turns creates more demand for housing, food, services, and etc. 

 

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Then the answer is a confident 'yes' if you think money is the answer...

Should the Democratic party hold the line and fight to protect DACA? 

 

[EdEarl]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

Should the Democratic party hold the line and fight to protect DACA?

Sure, they need some purpose and it is the decent thing to do.

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

A criminal is likely to create trouble whether they come in legally or illegally. However, a Dr. who comes into the US without papers cannot practice medicine; thus, the US cannot benefit from that skilled person. I think the laws are biased towards causing more trouble than good.

I agree. The whole "wait in line" argument is nonsense. The systems have different lines for different groups of immigrants. 

Just now, EdEarl said:

Sure, they need some purpose and it is the decent thing to do.

I agree. Let's hope they don't fold. I find it unconscionable that we'd deport individuals who were raised in the this country and have called it home for over a debate. When we discuss DACA specifically we are talking about individuals who attend and graduated from schools here in the U.S. and do not know another other nation as home.  

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Should the Democratic party hold the line and fight to protect DACA? 

 

We should always fight for what's right, and we should always protect children from whats wrong... 

[Sensei]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

We should always fight for what's right, and we should always protect children from whats wrong... 

But the same claim your opponents, claiming that their version of right, is truly right, while your version of right, is actually wrong.. (e.g. "fake news")

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

But the same claim your opponents, claiming their version of right, is truly right, while your version of right, is actually wrong.. (e.g. "fake news")

 

Is it?

[EdEarl]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Is it?

We don't have a view of the future to know what our decisions will cause; thus, we cannot know for certain. However, we have made ethical choices to the best of our ability, and I judge actions based on mine. To the best of my ability, Trumps immigration policies are rotten.

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, Sensei said:

But the same claim your opponents, claiming that their version of right, is truly right, while your version of right, is actually wrong.. (e.g. "fake news")

 

What is the claim of those who want to end DACA? The only arguments I have heard articulated are that DACA was never meant to be permanent. Same argument made to throw out the 200,000 people here legally from El Salvador since 2001. While true it is also nonsensical considering those making the argument could simply make it permanent.  More over it was their opposition in the first place which kept it from being permanent. So the argument is circular.  A honest explanation from the opposition doesn't seem to exist; least I haven't seen one. 

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

is the U.S. a nation of immigrants?

White America is. Non-white? Not as much.

[Ten oz]

28 minutes ago, swansont said:

White America is. Non-white? Not as much.

That is an excellent point. Much of the U.S. literally use to be Mexico. Hispanics are ingenious while blacks and Asians were forced to immigrate to work as labor.  That history looms big over the way many internalize this issue.

[Sensei]

Ten oz, I was talking more generally about what is considered truth (the all sides claim to have monopoly for truth *) ), not specifically about DACA.

 

I fully agree, that young-children-immigrant should remain in the country, in which he/she lived entire life, instead of being thrown abroad. Especially if they are fully naturalized, integrated, useful member of community, etc. etc.

 

*) but scientists at least are using scientific methods, to gather, process and analyze data..

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Sensei

[swansont]

10 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

That is an excellent point. Much of the U.S. literally use to be Mexico. Hispanics are ingenious while blacks and Asians were forced to immigrate to work as labor.  That history looms big over the way many internalize this issue.

Slavery is not immigration at all. 

[Ten oz]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Slavery is not immigration at all. 

No doubt

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

White America is. Non-white? Not as much.

Again, I think white Americans take the emotional stance about immigrants, and in their minds they paint a picture of a family moving here, the husband goes to work at a factory while the wife sets up the house and kids, the husband works his way up by the sweat of his brow until he's the foreman, a man of respect and (limited) prestige. Gold watch, thanks much, job well done. Or you start your own business, work like a dog at it, ignore your family except to buy expensive things, and then sell the business and retire to some place warmer. Then these white Americans see brown people come over and do things differently. The immigrant family is probably extended, might live in a neighborhood far under their budget, but pools their wealth and, let's say, buys a convenience store, then two, then five. They work in shifts around the clock but always spend a lot of time together. They all become successful, they do exactly what any country wants its immigrants to do, yet they're resented because they come from elsewhere and don't do things the same as white Americans. 

Another problem for our immigrants is the general working class distrust of higher education. Often immigrants (even from poorer countries) have more extensive educations and special skill sets than the average working class American, creating more resentment. Working class Americans are feeling left out right now, that everyone else gets the breaks but them, even the immigrants. They feel they've done things right, but they don't qualify for assistance, and resent anyone who does get aid (because they must have done things WRONG). I can imagine it would be galling to compete for a job you're qualified for, against someone who is overqualified (by a LOT) but needs the job just as badly. I think blue-collar workers have been manipulated to mistrust heavily educated people. It keeps them from demanding better access to higher education. It keeps them paying their medical insurance and also keeps them from going to the doctor regularly. It keeps them ignorant and fearful, ready to trust the first person who seems to speak their language.